Friday's NYT's Opinion Piece About Trump's Lies Covers Entire Front Page

It boggles the mind that 35-40% of people Quinnipiac surveyed believe Trump is honest.

Ambrosia said:

The authors' charge that he is "trying to create" such an atmosphere indicates they believe he is cognizant of what he is doing. I wonder if that is true. Is it possible he has already succeeded?

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After 27 years working corporate jobs, I can say that this is pretty typical of practices at many businesses. There's a sense that if you say something is true, people will work to make it true, and if that "truth" changes from month to month, your worker bees will adapt.

Generally businesses like this aren't fun places to work, but many of them are large and have been around for a long time.

Businesses are dictatorships, and that's what this person thinks he's got. He's never had to be consistent because nobody's ever called him on it. He's never had to inform those beneath him, because that's not what people who run businesses do. They say "make this happen," and if their peons don't make it happen, their peons get fired.

Given that so many in congress seem to believe they work for this person and not us, it'll probably work for him.

He's gaslighting and reasonable at it, not good. thereare three elements to a good lie and plausibilty is a distant third, so he will go on lieing and go on being believed.

MaeZe said:

It boggles the mind that 35-40% of people Quinnipiac surveyed believe Trump is honest.

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There you go. His "madness" works, well enough.

lizmonster said:

After 27 years working corporate jobs, I can say that this is pretty typical of practices at many businesses. There's a sense that if you say something is true, people will work to make it true, and if that "truth" changes from month to month, your worker bees will adapt.

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At one large tech firm I worked for during the 90s, we called it "breathing your own exhaust". Execs would say things that were patently untrue -- either about the competitive position of our products, or the value of working there compared to other similar firms -- often enough that people would accept those statements as factual.

The great leveller should see this problem off. The sooner the better.

Ambrosia said:

Alas, I was hoping for more hope.

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Sorry, Ambrosia. I'm feeling pretty hopeless right now. This country has never been perfect, but I thought it was striving to be something I could be proud of. Shattering to realize how many of my fellow citizens think differently.

wflogan said:

The great leveller should see this problem off. The sooner the better.

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Not soon enough to prevent a generation's worth of damage in the form of (very likely, unless the levelling happens this year) multiple Supreme Court picks.

And it's hardly a one-man problem, is it? Too many of my fellow Americans voted for this dumpster fire. They'll vote for the next one the GOP stands behind too.

The standard of education in Britain and America is shockingly bad. Mix that in with the misinformation from the media, and you get a total failure of democracy.

Introversion said:

Not soon enough to prevent a generation's worth of damage in the form of (very likely, unless the levelling happens this year) multiple Supreme Court picks.

And it's hardly a one-man problem, is it? Too many of my fellow Americans voted for this dumpster fire. They'll vote for the next one the GOP stands behind too.

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They didn't stand behind him though. As horrid as the GOP has become, they didn't, at first, even toward the damn end -- there was close to no one from the establishment at the convention, Cruz refused to endorse him on stage at the convention -- stand behind him.

wflogan said:

The standard of education in Britain and America is shockingly bad. Mix that in with the misinformation from the media, and you get a total failure of democracy.

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Yep.

cornflake said:

They didn't stand behind him though. As horrid as the GOP has become, they didn't, at first, even toward the damn end -- there was close to no one from the establishment at the convention, Cruz refused to endorse him on stage at the convention -- stand behind him.

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Has that mattered? Are they blocking his nominees? Publicly condemning his behaviors, his executive orders?

The GOP wanted a more compliant, saleable figure head. But they were happy enough to line up behind the one they got.

Introversion said:

Has that mattered? Are they blocking his nominees? Publicly condemning his behaviors, his executive orders?

The GOP wanted a more compliant, saleable figure head. But they were happy enough to line up behind the one they got.

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No, of course not. They're happy to use him until he's no longer of use. I just meant the GOP didn't actually engineer it -- I mean you could argue the entire dumbing down of their electorate and the cascading parade of clown-car candidates from the previous election set the stage for this, but...

MaeZe said:

It boggles the mind that 35-40% of people Quinnipiac surveyed believe Trump is honest.

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Not really.

There are large swaths of people who only listen to outlets that paint the administration in the best possible terms. They've been told / cautioned to avoid dissenting voices by people they consider authority figures, be those family members or elders in their churches or leaders of organizations to which they belong. They're warned against venturing off to other outlets, even to vet the information they hear.

When you never (or at best rarely) hear conflicting reports, and the only reports you do listen to are ones that keep saying how wonderful everything is, then they don't see any reason to doubt anything. They see the other side as deluded or petty or actively hostile to what they're being told are old fashioned / traditional ideals. They trust that any group labeled "news" is beholden to the truth and integrity that a label of "honest journalism" implies. (Like people who long for the days of a "never-locked-our-doors" past that didn't really exist for most of the world.)

If all you see are photo-ops, and all you hear are "tough talk" sound bites, then it warps your view of the state of things.

The rest of the percentage points would likely be hard core types who see dissent as weakness in the group as a whole, so they keep saying they agree.

Introversion said:

Not soon enough to prevent a generation's worth of damage in the form of (very likely, unless the levelling happens this year) multiple Supreme Court picks.

And it's hardly a one-man problem, is it? Too many of my fellow Americans voted for this dumpster fire. They'll vote for the next one the GOP stands behind too.

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Yep. My husband and I were wondering the other day whether or not the neighbor down the street who had Trump signs out during the election is regretting his choice yet. As if on cue, when we were walking the dogs the other night, we saw a new Trump sign (in the back window of his pickup truck). There are some Trump voters who have buyer's remorse now, and others who aren't happy with him but still feel he's better than the alternative, but many are still "breathing Trump's exhaust" and buying all those lies. They almost certainly don't read the NY Times, but instead are steeping themselves in a diet of Fox News, Breitbart, Limbaugh and so on.

it's not going to change in any long-term, substantiate way unless the huge number of eligible voters who don't vote can be bothered to get out to the polls each and every time (and not only when there's a charismatic candidate) and actually learn about the issues and how proposed policies will really affect them and other vulnerable Americans. With only slightly more than 50% voting in presidential elections (and even more staying home during mid terms), it's always down to what that 10% or so of the same undecided-until-the-last-minute voters pick.

Ambrosia said:

Alas, I was hoping for more hope.

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+1

lizmonster said:

Sorry, Ambrosia. I'm feeling pretty hopeless right now. This country has never been perfect, but I thought it was striving to be something I could be proud of. Shattering to realize how many of my fellow citizens think differently.

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Exactly. I never realized how many people evidently hated the morals, goals, and values I associated with my country until I saw what they decided it would take for it to become "great."

Roxxsmom said:

it's not going to change in any long-term, substantiate way unless the huge number of eligible voters who don't vote can be bothered to get out to the polls each and every time (and not only when there's a charismatic candidate) and actually learn about the issues and how proposed policies will really affect them and other vulnerable Americans. With only slightly more than 50% voting in presidential elections (and even more staying home during mid terms), it's always down to what that 10% or so of the same undecided-until-the-last-minute voters pick.

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This, really, is what it's going to take... and its something both parties haven't managed to do for too long. The Reds are just as happy at the moment leaving the Sloth Party asleep (indeed, I expect part of the reasoning behind the shock value governing they're practicing is to keep them numb and convince them it's not worth their while to engage anyway), but the Blues really haven't gotten their act together yet to energize them, either. Until they do, I don't see how anything's going to change for the better.

Roxxsmom said:

There are some Trump voters who have buyer's remorse now, and others who aren't happy with him but still feel he's better than the alternative, but many are still "breathing Trump's exhaust" and buying all those lies. They almost certainly don't read the NY Times, but instead are steeping themselves in a diet of Fox News, Breitbart, Limbaugh and so on.

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I suspect many are unreachable.

I like to think that I can be swayed by facts. I know that I've changed strongly-held opinions about things before, when presented with facts proving that what I believed was wrong.

It's easier to keep believing, though. And the most pernicious aspect about this president is his habit of declaring that anyone who disagrees with him is "fake" -- fake news, fake media, fake science. If any two groups of us can't even agree on what actual facts are, or actual sources of facts are, then we're screwed. There's nothing but monkey screeches going to come of us "talking".

And I kinda think we're there now, in the US, when it comes to trying to have rational discussions about big policy issues like healthcare, security, infrastructure spending, etc. Very discouraging.

I was going to share this on Facebook, but NOTtheprez's face comes up with the article. No thanks. Not that face.

Introversion said:

I like to think that I can be swayed by facts.

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People aren't swayed by facts, it's all about emotion. I can cite a bunch of studies if necessary, but I'm pretty sure I'm only reminding y'all of this and not informing anyone of anything they don't already know.

I figure the reason this tactic has been so effective for the GOP is that fear and anger are easier to whip up, and more likely to make people react.

In the fight between facts and bias, bias always wins.

-cb

JJ Litke said:

People aren't swayed by facts, it's all about emotion.

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Hmm. I changed my mind about nuclear power, from against (due to long-term waste storage issues) to for (due to their ability to generate electricity without emitting CO2). I suppose you could make an argument that my fear of climate change outweighed my fear of radioactive waste? But I don't recall feeling particularly emotional when I switched my thinking on the issue. Seemed like a rational thing, at the time; a weighing of tradeoffs and costs and benefits.

JJ Litke said:

People aren't swayed by facts, it's all about emotion. I can cite a bunch of studies if necessary, but I'm pretty sure I'm only reminding y'all of this and not informing anyone of anything they don't already know.

I figure the reason this tactic has been so effective for the GOP is that fear and anger are easier to whip up, and more likely to make people react.

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People vote with their amygdala, and reason cannot combat that.

Ambrosia said:

Is there a way on FB not to have the image come up? FB is so invasive at times.

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There's a Chrome extension -- Make America Kittens Again (MAKA), which autoreplaces any photos of him on web pages with pics of kittens. I've had it on since before the election. It's very effective. I just clicked the icon to double check the name and you can add people to kittenize, like Mike Pence (he has a box to check) or etc.