Not sure where to go from here

xanaphia · Jun 26, 2017

So I finished a story! 300,000 words and 18 months later, I completed a fantasy epic with a partner. I am really proud of the story we crafted and the world we created together, and I really want to make it into a proper novel. I just have no idea where to start.

So, for the sake of honestly, I should admit this was a roleplay. Not sure why that makes me feel dirty admitting that. It's well written, with thoughtfully considered plot and characterization. Somehow it feels like I cheated, i suppose, writing this with someone rather than alone. Whatever the case, I want to convert it into a narrative, and I have the blessing of my writing partner to do so.

The main issue I am running into at first is perspective. We wrote the story in third person limited perspective, from the perspective of our respective characters, most the of time. It seems like my options are to either condense chapters into a single POV (which will result in losing valuable characterization and pacing) or try and figure out a way to preserve the frequent shifting of POVs.

My other concern is the erotic content. I suppose this just comes down to deciding if I want it to be an erotica or a fantasy novel. We had quite of a bit of it, and some parts are even integral to the plot. I would remove quite a bit of it (since much of it was purely self indulgent), and possibly sanitize parts of it. Or is there a market for this type of write, filthy smut with a decent plot surrounding it?

Old Hack · Jun 26, 2017

xanaphia said:
So I finished a story! 300,000 words and 18 months later, I completed a fantasy epic with a partner. I am really proud of the story we crafted and the world we created together, and I really want to make it into a proper novel. I just have no idea where to start.

One word at a time. But note that 300,000 words is more like three or four novels, not just one.

So, for the sake of honestly, I should admit this was a roleplay. Not sure why that makes me feel dirty admitting that. It's well written, with thoughtfully considered plot and characterization. Somehow it feels like I cheated, i suppose, writing this with someone rather than alone. Whatever the case, I want to convert it into a narrative, and I have the blessing of my writing partner to do so.

I'm not sure what you mean by a roleplay.

Bear in mind that if you rewrite it to make it into a novel, your writing partner will still have a claim to the rights of the book so you'd be wise to get some sort of contract in place before you go ahead. Just to make sure you don't have problems later on.

The main issue I am running into at first is perspective. We wrote the story in third person limited perspective, from the perspective of our respective characters, most the of time. It seems like my options are to either condense chapters into a single POV (which will result in losing valuable characterization and pacing) or try and figure out a way to preserve the frequent shifting of POVs.

Lots of novels use multiple POVs. There's no reason why you can't do this, but it is trickier to pull off. Without knowing how good a writer you are, it's difficult to advise.

My other concern is the erotic content. I suppose this just comes down to deciding if I want it to be an erotica or a fantasy novel. We had quite of a bit of it, and some parts are even integral to the plot. I would remove quite a bit of it (since much of it was purely self indulgent), and possibly sanitize parts of it. Or is there a market for this type of write, filthy smut with a decent plot surrounding it?

You're coming close to insulting writers of erotica here. They're just as skilled as other writers at constructing decent plots.

Moving on, if some of the erotic scenes are integral to the plot you can't just wipe it all out. Anything which isn't significant should be cut anyway. But don't just cut it because it's erotica: cut it because it makes the book better.

heykatydid · Jun 27, 2017

I think I know what you mean by a role-play - were you doing it paragraph by paragraph or something longer than that? (When I was a member of RP communities, we sometimes did a few paragraphs at a time before sending it back and forth.) That would likely be too much switching for a novel to work, as the reader is going to be bouncing back and forth constantly between POVs. I think if you could condense those into chapters (or simply edit them into chapters that follow one POV) it would read much better. And Old Hack is right at pointing out possible issues with the co-author, so make sure you get anything hammered down before you start!

Filigree · Jun 27, 2017

I write erotic romance. There's a wide, wonderful world of fantasy romance, from XXX hard core to sweet. Lots of readers appreciate having plot and depth to add to the sex. Lots of publishers, too.

Cindyt · Jun 27, 2017

What do you mean by role play?

Kalyke · Jun 27, 2017

I really think the next step is editing. I think many issues will be solved with editing. Wouldn't "erotica" be determined by how much sex is in the book? I have certainly seen Horror, Sci-fi, and other genres with sex in them, but the focus is the story and not the sex. Erotica (and porn) is usually written with mood, sexual activity as a kind of centerpiece.

Not sure about how it would be cheating. Many artists, many writers write by team or committee. No one gets all woo when there are 7 writers per screen play (which is writing too).
Feeling guilty? Dont. 300k words is a lot of words. Maybe set it aside for a month, and then go back to edit and beta read.

Brightdreamer · Jun 27, 2017

xanaphia said:
So I finished a story! 300,000 words and 18 months later, I completed a fantasy epic with a partner. I am really proud of the story we crafted and the world we created together, and I really want to make it into a proper novel. I just have no idea where to start.

You've already started: you have 300K words of "start" with a finished draft. As others mentioned, that's closer to three or four books' worth of words. That's more than many people manage, so you're already a step ahead. Your next step is revisions and editing. If you don't know how to go about that, lurk around the forums or hit your library. Self-Editing for Fiction Writers (Dave King and Renni Browne) gives a good overview of the process, though - like writing itself - approaches vary.

xanaphia said:
So, for the sake of honestly, I should admit this was a roleplay. Not sure why that makes me feel dirty admitting that. It's well written, with thoughtfully considered plot and characterization. Somehow it feels like I cheated, i suppose, writing this with someone rather than alone. Whatever the case, I want to convert it into a narrative, and I have the blessing of my writing partner to do so.

Don't feel "dirty" about roleplaying. It's how many people first get into writing and creating. IIRC, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman used roleplaying to help write their Dragonlance Chronicles books (which were, admittedly, rooted in Dungeons & Dragons, but had appeal beyond that base.) And many writers co-create. It's not cheating in the least, unless you're plagiarizing. Though I echo others in saying you'll probably want something in writing if you intend to pursue publishing in any form, even self-publishing. (As they say on court TV shows, there's a name for people who don't get it in writing: they're called litigants.)

xanaphia said:
The main issue I am running into at first is perspective. We wrote the story in third person limited perspective, from the perspective of our respective characters, most the of time. It seems like my options are to either condense chapters into a single POV (which will result in losing valuable characterization and pacing) or try and figure out a way to preserve the frequent shifting of POVs.

That's likely just the first issue that leaps out at you. It's a rare first draft that has its story down perfect, or characters polished and strong, or that doesn't need weeding of repeated phrases or grammar issues, etc. All of this can and will be ironed out in revisions. That's not to say it'll be easy. Some of your darlings (favorite passages) will probably end up in the recycle bin. Rest assured you will write new ones, better ones, to replace them.

xanaphia said:
My other concern is the erotic content. I suppose this just comes down to deciding if I want it to be an erotica or a fantasy novel. We had quite of a bit of it, and some parts are even integral to the plot. I would remove quite a bit of it (since much of it was purely self indulgent), and possibly sanitize parts of it. Or is there a market for this type of write, filthy smut with a decent plot surrounding it?

As has been mentioned, beware of belittling a genre as a whole... Whether or not it's erotica, IIRC, depends on whether the sex and sensual content is "the point", central to the story. Maybe you've written fantasy erotica, here. Or maybe it's more mainstream fantasy with a high sex content; some fantasy has quite a bit of sex in it, after all, so don't feel obligated to "sanitize" anything if it hurts the story. (If your concept of fantasy is Harry Potter and LOTR, largely asexual, I'd suggest hitting your library pronto.)

Best of luck!

xanaphia · Jun 27, 2017

One word at a time. But note that 300,000 words is more like three or four novels, not just one.

Yeah, I am think I will end up with two to three novels once I am done. If I ever get there.

I'm not sure what you mean by a roleplay.

Essentially, we took turns writing it. I'd write 200-1200 words, send it to him, and he'd reply with around the same. At first, we would approach the same scene from the perspectives of our main character, but eventually we included the perspective of dozens of characters. (almost twenty by my counts)

Bear in mind that if you rewrite it to make it into a novel, your writing partner will still have a claim to the rights of the book so you'd be wise to get some sort of contract in place before you go ahead. Just to make sure you don't have problems later on.

I got permission to turn it into a novel. I fully intend on giving him equal credit if get into publishable shape, and am willing to write up a contract with him at that point. It seems a bit premature right now, given that I have just started the editing process.

Lots of novels use multiple POVs. There's no reason why you can't do this, but it is trickier to pull off. Without knowing how good a writer you are, it's difficult to advise.

I fully embrace the fact that the work is going to require multiple POVs, just because there isn't one character that is present for every important scene. My main issue is that there are self contained flash scenes, that aren't really long enough to justify a chapter. Some can be cut, certainly, but cutting all of them seems extreme. Does anyone know of any cases of multiple perspective in within chapters, or something of the sort? One of the things I about the story is these quick cuts where I spend a few moments with a character before moving to another. I'd compare it to a tv show with multiple storylines happening simultaneously, where they bounce back and forth between narratives, instead of spending an entire episode on on character or in one location.

You're coming close to insulting writers of erotica here. They're just as skilled as other writers at constructing decent plots.

Apologies! Definitely not my intention to offend anyone. Well written erotica is just as engrossing and moving as any other piece of literature.

Moving on, if some of the erotic scenes are integral to the plot you can't just wipe it all out. Anything which isn't significant should be cut anyway. But don't just cut it because it's erotica: cut it because it makes the book better.

I suppose my concern is "Is this level of detail concerning this sex scene really integral to the novel?" I already know a few scene are going to be cut down for being extraneous and overly long, but deciding whether my reader needs (or even wants) the full details of a sex scene beyond the fact that it happened.

Don't feel "dirty" about roleplaying. It's how many people first get into writing and creating. IIRC, Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman used roleplaying to help write their Dragonlance Chronicles books (which were, admittedly, rooted in Dungeons & Dragons, but had appeal beyond that base.) And many writers co-create. It's not cheating in the least, unless you're plagiarizing. Though I echo others in saying you'll probably want something in writing if you intend to pursue publishing in any form, even self-publishing. (As they say on court TV shows, there's a name for people who don't get it in writing: they're called litigants.)

I am actually a fan of Dragonlance, and I had no idea it originated there, but it makes sense, all things considered. I think half of this is just my own anxiety and insecurities bubbling up and spilling out before a new forum where I am new and not as comfortable.

That's likely just the first issue that leaps out at you. It's a rare first draft that has its story down perfect, or characters polished and strong, or that doesn't need weeding of repeated phrases or grammar issues, etc. All of this can and will be ironed out in revisions. That's not to say it'll be easy. Some of your darlings (favorite passages) will probably end up in the recycle bin. Rest assured you will write new ones, better ones, to replace them.

I am prepared to put in the work to making this story as good as the version of it in my head. And I even willing to cut things that aren't needed, or gum up the works. Where I struggle are losing some brief, scenes that flesh out the world and characters, but aren't long enough to constitute a full chapter.

As has been mentioned, beware of belittling a genre as a whole... Whether or not it's erotica, IIRC, depends on whether the sex and sensual content is "the point", central to the story. Maybe you've written fantasy erotica, here. Or maybe it's more mainstream fantasy with a high sex content; some fantasy has quite a bit of sex in it, after all, so don't feel obligated to "sanitize" anything if it hurts the story. (If your concept of fantasy is Harry Potter and LOTR, largely asexual, I'd suggest hitting your library pronto.)

My concern is that the sex scene as written are even more explicit than most I have come across in published work, such as Fifty Shades of Grey. (Bad example, I know. Perhaps I need ot read more published erotica to get a sense of what flies and what dooesn't)

BethS · Jun 27, 2017

xanaphia said:
we would approach the same scene from the perspectives of our main character, but eventually we included the perspective of dozens of characters. (almost twenty by my counts)

If you're serious about turning this into a novel, then a very good place to start would be to cut down the number of POV characters to maybe five to seven, or fewer, if you can manage it. Also, you'll want to eliminate any duplications of scenes told from different perspectives. Choose one POV per scene. Don't repeat the same scene using a second or third POV character.

JCornelius · Jun 27, 2017

So "role play" did not, in fact, mean writing it while dressed as a latex train conductor? Dang!

Concerning length: on one hand, everyone and their aunts do publish enormous doorstoppers--in fantasy (Martin), in horror (King), and even in political thrillers (Clancy). On the other hand, they rarely start like that. First one makes a name (better yet becomes a bestseller), while respecting the average wordcount which doesn't make people nervous, and then, once reaching the stature of a titan among pygmies, one offers something thrice the size.

That being said, all this is about the traditional "find an agent and work with corporate publisher" way of doing things--if the novel ends up being self-published, or published by a digital-first indie publisher/corporate branch, with no upper limit, wordcount stops being an issue.

If one types into the Submission Grinder engine "300000" into the wordcount window, and chooses "fantasy" as genre, about 60 publishers/branches appear. Basically this means "no upper word limit", so if their editors say your novel works as a doorstopper--no worries. If, however, it needs to be cut because it simply doesn't work as a book that way--they'll say it needs to be cut--and that's that. If that's the direction one is going, those publishers should be checked out, and possibly dug up in the "bewares, recommendations, and background checks" section to see what's what.

(Here's the newest* one to pop up that handles enormous sagas http://multifariouspress.com/?ref=staff)

Another way is to see with whom Piers Anthony is publishing lately. His golden years hobby is using his brand name to help out new indie publishers of fantasy and sci-fi, and he frequently includes lots of sex, so check out his website, see who he's working with.

As to "how to make it into a proper novel". That's not something that will be answered in a single post or even a dozen posts. Might as well start with Uncle Jim's advice. A more organized version: here, because there are no "ten easy step to becoming a novelist", in spite of what some writerly snake oil peddlers may say. Uncle Jim has given his valuable time and shared his invaluable experience here for free, and if one reads it seriously, one learns almost everything one needs to. Combined with the little bits and pieces of useful knowledge to be found in the other General Writing Interest discussions, by the time one has edited one's novel, one is ready to sit down and really edit one's novel

____
*Frequently this means "yet unproven"

Not sure where to go from here

xanaphia

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

heykatydid

Business Lumberjack

Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

Cindyt

Gettin wiggy wit it

Kalyke

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

xanaphia

BethS

JCornelius