Women in AZ and MO Could Be Fired For Using Birth Control

regdog

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If lawmakers in Missouri and Arizona get their way, women may be fired or lose housing for using birth control for pregnancy prevention. Employers and landlords will have the right to ask women what sort of birth control they use and for what reason. if it conflicts with the employers or landlords religious beliefs, the can refuse to hire the woman, fire her, or refuse her housing.

Oh, and just to let you know who much the Republicans in DC think of women. The word "women" NEVER appears in the 142 page Senate ACHA proposal.


The war on women, full steam ahead.

Link 1 AZ and MO Article is MO, video is AZ
 
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Introversion

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I can't decide whether women who vote GOP don't believe the GOP agenda will ever affect them personally? Or if they're actively cheering on -- assuming the logical end-game of GOP policies -- their own servitude / second-class-citizenship?

I don't get it. Why vote for this? Why ever vote for this?
 

lizmonster

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I can't decide whether women who vote GOP don't believe the GOP agenda will ever affect them personally? Or if they're actively cheering on -- assuming the logical end-game of GOP policies -- their own servitude / second-class-citizenship?

I don't get it. Why vote for this? Why ever vote for this?

I know this question doesn't really need an answer, because we all know why, really. We live in a sexist society, and women are as sexist as anybody else; opposition to birth control comes primarily from fundamentalist religious denominations, and plenty of women belong to those; I'm doing the "right thing" by not using bc so why should other people be allowed to use it and be spared my suffering, etc.

It's the usual reason people vote GOP, with the added fillip of "it won't be me that gets screwed, just someone else that looks exactly like me and deserves it."
 

RightHoJeeves

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I feel like the US has some kind of space-time issue. How can one part of the country be so forward thinking, and other parts be so backwards?

Straaaange.
 

DancingMaenid

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I can't decide whether women who vote GOP don't believe the GOP agenda will ever affect them personally? Or if they're actively cheering on -- assuming the logical end-game of GOP policies -- their own servitude / second-class-citizenship?

I don't get it. Why vote for this? Why ever vote for this?

I think some of them are complacent because they're privileged enough that they can't imagine actually facing negative repercussions, themselves. For example, they might like the idea of "conscience clauses" in a theoretical sense because they 1. don't imagine that this would be applied widespread enough to affect them and 2. they can't relate to the idea of seriously having your life or livelihood tied to the judgement of someone who is opposed to your "lifestyle."

I find that in discussions about things like this, there's often a sense that people think that you can just go out and get a new job, or a new place to live, or find another pharmacy, or go to a different hospital, etc. There's not a lot of empathy for the fact that this isn't just an inconvenience for a lot of people, or awareness of the bigger implications: if this sort of discrimination is legal, it can become an even bigger, broader problem.
 

JJ Litke

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I feel like the US has some kind of space-time issue. How can one part of the country be so forward thinking, and other parts be so backwards?

Straaaange.

A little insulting, but I'll take your question at face value. Because it's a damn big, diverse place. There are more people just in California or Texas than in the entirety of Australia. This is what happens when you take that many people from a wide variety of backgrounds, spread them out over a big land mass, then use a system that allows each state to set a lot of their own rules.
 

Unimportant

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I think that's what a lot of people find boggling, that laws vary so much from state to state. Not just minor things like how many dogs are you allowed to have, or what times of day you're allowed to park on the street, but laws about really major issues like gun permits and health care. I can't think of any other country where that happens. It's just really weird to think that you can drive across an arbitrary line, still be in the same country, but suddenly you're not married, or your gun isn't legal, or you can't get your prescription filled.
 

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A little insulting, but I'll take your question at face value. Because it's a damn big, diverse place. There are more people just in California or Texas than in the entirety of Australia. This is what happens when you take that many people from a wide variety of backgrounds, spread them out over a big land mass, then use a system that allows each state to set a lot of their own rules.

Very true, and very diverse.

And you're right about it being a little insulting. Please excuse my bias. I should have said "backwards to me" and "forwards to me". I suppose I'm just surprised at the extremely wide variety of opinions and people. It's pretty fascinating. Australians are pretty much the same wherever you go, but Americans have a mind boggling amount of diversity. Comparing some states seems like comparing Poland and Portugal.
 

Mondo

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You can look at this two ways: as an attack on women, or a defense of religious freedom.

If a person wants nothing to do with abortion based upon religious beliefs, the government should not be able to force them to do otherwise. This is a very basic aspect of the Bill of Rights.

Simple biology has placed the burden of birth upon women.

I have often thought that they should have a lottery-like drawing at each abortion, with a 10% chance that the father is executed. I think we would see a much higher degree of responsibility about birth control, and a lot more fathers willing to step up and accept child support.

I have a lot of innovative ideas about improving society, in fact.
 

ElaineA

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There is a significant patriarchy backlash whipping our country right now, and yes, women are part of it, too. Many, many women find their power within the patriarchy no less now than they did in the 1500's. I hope we are approaching the limit of the sling. Certainly the male lawmakers, who are the ones overwhelmingly behind all these insane laws, are doing their utmost to accelerate us to the rebound.

I think that's what a lot of people find boggling, that laws vary so much from state to state. Not just minor things like how many dogs are you allowed to have, or what times of day you're allowed to park on the street, but laws about really major issues like gun permits and health care. I can't think of any other country where that happens. It's just really weird to think that you can drive across an arbitrary line, still be in the same country, but suddenly you're not married, or your gun isn't legal, or you can't get your prescription filled.

Yes, but would you feel the same if we were a union like the EU? We aren't, and yet we are. It's kind of funny, because this state of existence is so natural to me, it catches me off-guard to think that non-Americans find it odd. Just for a fun reference, this article places the State of Texas over various other states and countries. Texas is as big as France, but if you move it east, it encompasses all or parts of seven countries. You would have laws and customs as diverse as Germany, France, Italy & the Czech Republic. (And we do.)

Even on an in-state basis we have vast differences in culture and progressivism. Washington is blue because the Puget Sound region is densely populated, but outside of a pretty small area of our state (land-wise), it's all Red. Similar in California, Oregon, Colorado & many others. We're still very much a collection of our parts here in the US; not so much melted in our so-called melting pot, as still heating up.

ETA because cross-post and *must comment*

You can look at this two ways: as an attack on women, or a defense of religious freedom.

If a person wants nothing to do with abortion based upon religious beliefs, the government should not be able to force them to do otherwise. This is a very basic aspect of the Bill of Rights.
Not really, but kind of? (I gather this isn't your actual position on the matter so expounding for my own sake, here.) If a person wants nothing to do with abortion, they shouldn't have one. Abortions being available to others are not an attack on religion any more than synagogues being available are an attack on Christianity. They can exist side by side without imperiling each other. Our Bill of Rights only says the government may not make laws based on a specific religious doctrine, and that people have a right to choose their own religion. There is nothing about abortion being available that forces anyone to do anything.

I have often thought that they should have a lottery-like drawing at each abortion, with a 10% chance that the father is executed. I think we would see a much higher degree of responsibility about birth control, and a lot more fathers willing to step up and accept child support.

I have a lot of innovative ideas about improving society, in fact.

While extreme, I agree with the larger point. Men have the least at stake in this equation, and are the loudest voice. It's always boggled my mind, but then I'm one o' them there pro-gressives.
 
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lizmonster

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While extreme, I agree with the larger point. Men have the least at stake in this equation, and are the loudest voice. It's always boggled my mind, but then I'm one o' them there pro-gressives.

Mandatory vasectomies for anyone aged 12 and above possessing a penis. Problem solved.

Yeah, I know, but if unwanted pregnancies were really the issue, this is the kind of solution that would come up.
 

Mondo

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Not really, but kind of? (I gather this isn't your actual position on the matter so expounding for my own sake, here.) If a person wants nothing to do with abortion, they shouldn't have one. Abortions being available to others are not an attack on religion any more than synagogues being available are an attack on Christianity. They can exist side by side without imperiling each other. Our Bill of Rights only says the government may not make laws based on a specific religious doctrine, and that people have a right to choose their own religion. There is nothing about abortion being available that forces anyone to do anything.

No, that's my actual position. If someone does not want to rent their house to someone committing what their faith teaches is murder, they should not have to. There are limits, of course; if someone kills a medical staffer who performs abortions, I would still have to be part of the investigation, same as I would when any murder victim is a person whose moral outlook is contrary to mine.

The courts have to lay out where the boundary lies. For example, jails and prison systems have to provide alternate meals for inmates whose religious practices forbid pork.

It boils down to the face that the law gives a landlord the right to ask; if answering such questions is offensive to a prospective renter, they don't have to rent there.

The US government is bound to the standard of equality; US citizens are not required to do so.

While extreme, I agree with the larger point. Men have the least at stake in this equation, and are the loudest voice. It's always boggled my mind, but then I'm one o' them there pro-gressives.[/QUOTE]
 

Roxxsmom

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I think some of them are complacent because they're privileged enough that they can't imagine actually facing negative repercussions, themselves. For example, they might like the idea of "conscience clauses" in a theoretical sense because they 1. don't imagine that this would be applied widespread enough to affect them and 2. they can't relate to the idea of seriously having your life or livelihood tied to the judgement of someone who is opposed to your "lifestyle."

I find that in discussions about things like this, there's often a sense that people think that you can just go out and get a new job, or a new place to live, or find another pharmacy, or go to a different hospital, etc. There's not a lot of empathy for the fact that this isn't just an inconvenience for a lot of people, or awareness of the bigger implications: if this sort of discrimination is legal, it can become an even bigger, broader problem.

I don't discount the numbers of women who believe in and agree with the GOP's anti-woman agenda, but I think that overall, Dancing Maenid's explanation sums up the thinking of some Republicans (and independents who vote for the GOP sometimes) who aren't that socially conservative. I've run into libertarians who make this argument too. It's not unlike the support some show for business owners who wish to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people and so on.

1. They don't think it's every going to affect them in any significant way.

2. They overestimate the power of the individual consumer or employee in our current economy. This doesn't mean that they support unionization or the rights of strikers, or that they won't meet a well-organized and effective boycott with cries of "Censorship," however.

3. They underestimate the number of employers who will likely take advantage of this "right," whether from true religious conviction, or for economic reasons, or out of pure mean-spiritedness.

It's occurred to me that this law will provide an easy means for managers and co-workers to sexually harass and coerce female employees. Oh, and it opens up the possibility of blackmail by fellow workers too, if someone knows that a woman is really using the pill for reproductive purposes and not (gasp) just for her ovarian cysts or fibroids.

And of course, it will also add fuel to the fire for people who think it should be okay to discriminate against female employees because they might get pregnant. "We can't afford to invest in employees who could get pregnant at any time," they'll moan, "and we can't afford to cover pregnancy and maternity care!"

Women will be truly between a rock and a hard place.

It never ceases to amaze me how some of the same people who are so horrified by the idea of the government intruding into one's personal business and health care decisions don't even bat an eye at employers who are lobbying hard for the right to do the same. Don't they see all the ramifications of laws that empower employers like this?
 

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While extreme, I agree with the larger point. Men have the least at stake in this equation, and are the loudest voice. It's always boggled my mind, but then I'm one o' them there pro-gressives.

I wouldn't say progressive, because the term suggests someone who seeks progress.

Progress would be a world where children are neither aborted nor unwanted; where Human life has value in other words.

We are a long ways from that, and no dynamic movement in sight.
 

AW Admin

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I wouldn't say progressive, because the term suggests someone who seeks progress.

You realize that Progressive is a political label, right?
 

Mondo

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You realize that Progressive is a political label, right?

Ah, no. I try to avoid politics for the most part. I have voted the party line since I was old enough to vote. Other than local politics I try to avoid the entire mess. Much less stressful that way.
 

ElaineA

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Oh, sorry, Mondo. I didn't get your point, I guess.

If a person wants nothing to do with abortion based upon religious beliefs, the government should not be able to force them to do otherwise. This is a very basic aspect of the Bill of Rights.

The government does not force anything about abortion on anyone. The government simply says the medical procedure is legal and available for those who chose it. Freedom of religion does not mean you get to impose your morality on others, either. It means you can practice it yourself. Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
 

Mondo

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Oh, sorry, Mondo. I didn't get your point, I guess.

No one ever does. :cry:

The government does not force anything about abortion on anyone. The government simply says the medical procedure is legal and available for those who chose it. Freedom of religion does not mean you get to impose your morality on others, either. It means you can practice it yourself. Don't like abortion? Don't have one.

No one is suggesting that anything be imposed on anyone, so far as I can see.

But a person whose religious views equate abortion with murder should not be forced by the government to interact with a person who has undertaken an abortion, if the first person objects to such interaction.

You can decline service to anyone without giving any reason. I've had service refused to me for what I believe was religious grounds.

People can protest for or against abortion, publish their opinions, and refuse to associate with either side of the equation.

The law does not require a statement made under oath. HEPPA standards protect medical records. All this new law would do would is protect landlords and allow employees to know where their employer stands on abortion. There are no viable provisions for enforcement. It seems to be a political statement in response for campaign support received.
 

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No one ever does. :cry:



No one is suggesting that anything be imposed on anyone, so far as I can see.

But a person whose religious views equate abortion with murder should not be forced by the government to interact with a person who has undertaken an abortion, if the first person objects to such interaction.

You can decline service to anyone without giving any reason. I've had service refused to me for what I believe was religious grounds.

People can protest for or against abortion, publish their opinions, and refuse to associate with either side of the equation.

The law does not require a statement made under oath. HEPPA standards protect medical records. All this new law would do would is protect landlords and allow employees to know where their employer stands on abortion. There are no viable provisions for enforcement. It seems to be a political statement in response for campaign support received.

Protect landlords? I work in property management, and I can tell you this does NOTHING to protect landlords. There are plenty of laws in place to protect landlords, but they're all connected with, yanno, landlording.

Are abortion-havers (or, more relevant to the law at hand, birth-control users) more likely to skip out on the rent? Are they more likely to trash the place? Are they more likely to cook meth in the rented space and thereby risk explosions or seizure by police? Do they throw loud disturbing parties at 3:00 AM? These are the kind of things that landlords are protected against (with some variation by state, of course, and some of these protections must be detailed in the lease to be enforceable).

Renters, on the other hand, have (again, with variation by state), protections of their own. If the place becomes uninhabitable for reasons beyond their control (say a storm knocks a tree through the roof), the landlord is tasked with providing suitable substitute housing until the rental property is back up and running. Rental properties have to be safe, so no lead paint, no asbestos, no mold, etc. They need electricity and running water. They need HVAC sufficient to keep tenants from dying of cold or heat (depending on where you live). And one major one: they're protected from descrimination based on (along with the standard race, religion, etc) family status. Now, in the most common scenario, this protects families with children. It's understandable why some landlords might not be too keen on renting to people with kids, children are, after all, noisy, messy, and often destructive. They could legitimately damage a landlord's business... but any landlord who denies rental space to someone because they have children is going to be in deep doodoo.

How is it more justifiable to deny rental space to someone because they don't have children and are taking steps to remain that way? Even more to the point, what business is that of the landlord's?
 
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JJ Litke

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You can decline service to anyone without giving any reason.

No, you can't. There are actually laws against that.

And that's HIPAA, not HEPPA.

It's expected that you back up statements with citations in this part of the forum. It's not just a spot to spew random opinions, or for trolling.
 

Mondo

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Protect landlords? I work in property management, and I can tell you this does NOTHING to protect landlords. There are plenty of laws in place to protect landlords, but they're all connected with, yanno, landlording.

Are abortion-havers (or, more relevant to the law at hand, birth-control users) more likely to skip out on the rent? Are they more likely to trash the place? Are they more likely to cook meth in the rented space and thereby risk explosions or seizure by police? Do they throw loud disturbing parties at 3:00 AM? These are the kind of things that landlords are protected against (with some variation by state, of course).

Renters, on the other hand, have (again, with variation by state), protections of their own. If the place becomes uninhabitable for reasons beyond their control (say a storm knocks a tree through the roof), the landlord is tasked with providing suitable substitute housing until the rental property is back up and running. Rental properties have to be safe, so no lead paint, no asbestos, no mold, etc. They need electricity and running water. They need HVAC sufficient to keep tenants from dying of cold or heat (depending on where you live). And one major one: they're protected from descrimination based on (along with the standard race, religion, etc) family status. Now, in the most common scenario, this protects families with children. It's understandable why some landlords might not be too keen on renting to people with kids, children are, after all, noisy, messy, and often destructive... but any landlord who denies rental space to someone because they have children is going to be in deep doodoo.

How is it more justifiable to deny rental space to someone because they don't have children and are taking steps to remain that way? Even more to the point, what business is that of the landlord's?

A landlord who states that he won't rent to kids is, as you say, in trouble.

But there are a large number of ways to deny service to someone without saying that is the reason. Back when I was young and stupid and owned rental properties (NEVER AGAIN) I always had a politically correct answer for why X or Y didn't get the lease.

As I noted above, I expect that this law is repayment for pro-life support during the recent elections. Lobby groups don't work out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm not from Az, so that's just a guess.

Myself, anything that empowers people is a good thing, and there is no greater empowerment than to be able to say 'No, I do not want to do this'. Your results may vary. That's the beauty of democracy.
 

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But there are a large number of ways to deny service to someone without saying that is the reason. Back when I was young and stupid and owned rental properties (NEVER AGAIN) I always had a politically correct answer for why X or Y didn't get the lease.

Just because there's a way around the law doesn't make such actions legal or moral.

I'm supposed to pay for food when I eat out. I COULD dine and dash, and thereby eat for free... that doesn't make it right to do so, and it certainly doesn't change the fact that it's against the law. And my ability to say "No, I won't pay," doesn't trump the restaurant's right to be compensated for the product they provided.

We've never had to come up with "excuses" for not giving people leases because we don't discriminate. It's really not that difficult.
 
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Mondo

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No, you can't. There are actually laws against that.

And that's HIPAA, not HEPPA.

It's expected that you back up statements with citations in this part of the forum. It's not just a spot to spew random opinions, or for trolling.

Sorry about the mis-spelling.

The key to discrimination suits, as I noted elsewhere, is careful handling of the reason given. If, say I don't hire you because of your mode of dress (just as an example), but state that the reason was because applicant B has a higher academic degree than you, the statute does not kick in.

I am not spewing random opinions; I believe I have been consistent in those I have expressed. I am not attempting to troll, although I am beginning to regret posting in this thread. I believe I shall adjourn to more friendly waters.