Is it just me, or is it sexy when

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crossword

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two strong, masculine men get into it? By which I mean they clash, two strong manly alpha males clashing?


I don't mean physically. I loathe watching physical fights and get bored when that happens on TV.


Yesterday I was writing such a scene where my heroes Ariston and Castor are clashing. Both are good men, and powerful paranormal beings. They later become close friends but right now they barely know each other and Castor is afraid to trust anyone with the truth of what powers he has, especially Ariston, who he knows is hiding huge secrets, just as Castor is.

I totally enjoyed the verbal aggression between them. Usually in novels I find the hero clashing with the heroine or his enemies. I don't usually read of two good men who are both heroes in the series, clashing that way. Maybe I just havent read the right books where that happens.



Do other women find it as sexy as I do?
 

Anna Iguana

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I think some women surely do. Lots of women read and write M/M romance. There are stories with original characters, and--don't even get me started on the fan fiction. :)
 

jennontheisland

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Nope. M/M of any sort has never done it for me, but every romance writer I knew a few years ago couldn't get enough of it.
 

crossword

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I do enjoy reading M/M romance but I wasnt talking about that. I was talking about two straight alpha males clashing verbally. For some reason I find that power struggle very appealing.


Maybe its as simple as, women are drawn to powerful males, when we see TWO powerful males clashing, that kind of aggression is kind of sexy. I should write more of that kind of clash into my works.
 

StoryofWoe

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Maybe its as simple as, women are drawn to powerful males, when we see TWO powerful males clashing, that kind of aggression is kind of sexy. I should write more of that kind of clash into my works.
You mean kinda like this? :tongue

Kidding aside, yeah, I could see that being sexy. As long as their grievances are legit and not petty or purely about posturing. (See above link.) Watching two heroes stand up for what they believe can be very sexy, especially when they eventually have to put aside their differences and work together like grown-ups.
 

Twick

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I do enjoy reading M/M romance but I wasnt talking about that. I was talking about two straight alpha males clashing verbally. For some reason I find that power struggle very appealing.


Maybe its as simple as, women are drawn to powerful males, when we see TWO powerful males clashing, that kind of aggression is kind of sexy. I should write more of that kind of clash into my works.

Sorry, doesn't do anything for me. But then, I tend to find "alpha" males in general as sexy as filling out paperwork.
 
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Fruitbat

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I don't care for m/m but men fighting is delicious.
 
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Ari Meermans

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^ lol


Yeah, it's not for me. I like snappy, quick-witted dialogue—no matter who—but when it's "alpha male" posturing, I start looking forward to seeing them taken down a coupla dozen notches. When it's rewarded instead, I want to toss the book across the room.
 

crossword

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Good question Marian. I thought they were clashing over some actual issue, but we arent always the best judges of our work. I leave it to you to decide.


The conversation, from Castor’s POV, goes like this:


“No,” said Ariston. “You are the great-grandson of Lucien; the son of Leon and Venetia; the brother of Inara. All four are people who have devoted their lives to peace and to doing good. Unless some unknown quantity seriously screwed you up, or you were just born psycho, you can’t possibly be on the side of the devil. What does he have on you? What is he blackmailing you with?”

I shrugged. Ariston wasn’t stupid; he could figure out the truth.
“Kaya’s family,” I said. “He’s holding them hostage. We don't know where, but he’ll torture and kill them unless we give him what he wants.”
“I figured it must be something like that,” said Ariston. “So you’re going to condemn my world to be at the mercy of this genocidal maniac to save your fiancee’s family?”
“Of course not. We’ll trick him out of it.”
“And what was your grand plan for doing that?”
“We figured we’d have to play it by ear.”
Ariston looked contemptuous. “So you had no plan.”
I scowled at him. “Some things can’t be planned ahead. Much would depend on Lucien. I figured there was no way a man like him would help evil, even if he’s been in a coma for twenty years and has lost some of his memory. So he’d be on our side and we’d figure out something together.”
Ariston snorted. “Like you’d even get the chance to be alone with Lucien long enough to plan anything. You have no idea of the magnitude of evil we’re dealing with here. You’re just a foolish boy who’s in way over his head.”
He must have read something in my face, because his own face changed. He took a menacing step toward me. I stood my ground and looked back at him impassively.
He stared into my eyes. “You aren’t afraid of me,” he said softly. “You know I could crush you like a bug and you aren’t afraid. You aren’t afraid either of the most terrifying evil ever to have been unleashed on my world. Only someone very stupid would not be afraid in this suituation and these circumstances. You aren’t stupid. You have something up your sleeve. What are your powers?”
“Like you, I can traverse universes. That’s the only power that has kicked in so far.”
“What are your powers?” he repeated insistently, stepping even closer to me so that we were nearly nose to nose. Except that his nose was a little higher than mine.
I ignored his aristocratic nose and looked him squarely in the eye. “I can traverse universes. What more do you want? How many nineteen-year-olds do you know who can traverse universes? Ever heard of not being greedy and expecting the world? Or the universe, as the case may be?”
Ariston stepped back as if to try to make himself look less of a threat to me. Yeah, good luck with that. I’d trust Cleopatra’s asp before I’d trust Ariston’s ass.
When he spoke again, it was in the mild tone of one trying to reason with a recalcitrant child. “Castor, I know you don’t trust me and I sure as hell don't totally trust you. But you know I want to save my world. Since the girl you love comes from that world, I have to believe that you share my goals. If you tell me what your powers are, we can best plan how to use our combined powers to defeat him. You owe my world that.”
“I can traverse universes,” I repeated implacably. “That’s what we have to work with, princeling. I owe you and your world nothing, Your Entitled Highness. Ever heard of hubris? Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Macbeth, and Midas hadn't either.”
Ariston made a gesture of defeat, something that I suspected His Royal High Horse had to do very rarely. “Okay. If your powers are so deadly you can’t even tell me what they are, then fine. I can work with you as long as we’re on the same page, even if we’re on different paragraphs.


***
That’s the exchange. Both are good men, and powerful beings. They later become close friends but right now they barely know each other and Castor is afraid to trust anyone with the truth of what powers he has, especially Ariston, who he knows is hiding huge secrets, just as Castor is.


So what do you think? Do they sound like theyre just swaggering and posturing?
 

Susannah Shepherd

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Yeah, it's not for me. I like snappy, quick-witted dialogue—no matter who—but when it's "alpha male" posturing, I start looking forward to seeing them taken down a coupla dozen notches. When it's rewarded instead, I want to toss the book across the room.

+1.

I find two men battling *wits* quite sexy, but not any sort of testosterone-fuelled clash, even if their motivations are good. But then again the only time I can recall two men getting into a fight over me (I'd only met both of them that evening, and I didn't normally manage to attract that much attention in a year, so who knows what the hell was going on), I walked away and left them to it.
 

MerriTudor

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crossword, I'd say yes - there's a bit of swaggering and posturing. But even when men are working together on a goal, there's apt to be some of that! It's whether they're man enough to bring it back to the point or end up pummeling each other in the dirt. Looks like these two are headed in the right direction!

I don't know if this is what you had in mind in your original question, but I immediately thought of my all-time favorite move, The Last of the Mohicans with DD-L. Hawkeye and Duncan are at odds from the word go, and their anagonism escalates when Cora begins to show interest in Hawkeye. Duncan does some dirty double-dealing there for a time, and nearly gets Hawkeye hanged, but finally sacrifices himself for Cora. It never fails to grab me when he mistranslates Hawkeye's offer to die in Cora's place. And his final heroic stance as they drag him away to be burned alive. Wow.
 

Marian Perera

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So what do you think? Do they sound like theyre just swaggering and posturing?

There's some swaggering and posturing, but personally, I find conflict more interesting when I know what's going on, and when there's more wit in the exchanges. As it is, because Lucien, Kaya, Castor, etc. are all strangers to me, I tend to notice tactics like invading personal space (and to notice them as the standard alpha-male behavior, rather than being so immersed in the story I react on a more emotional level).
 

Twick

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Well, there's dramatic tension and then there's hotness. They're not necessarily the same. Your excerpt can work for people for the first, without triggering a response in the second.
 

travelgal

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Yeah, I've got two alphas going at it, but it's not funny.

The first time, Richard senses something is off about Castellan, and lectures him. Castellan resents the mind games and dishes it out in turn.

The second time, Richard barks at Castellan for coming onto his sister-in-law, Ruth, and putting Earth in danger, while Castellan is trying to calm him down while fighting the temptation to kill the man and nick off.

The third time, Castellan is about to leave Earth after securing Earth's safety at great risk, Richard's barking at him again and Castellan feels sorry for him because he has a family to worry about.

Ruth's reaction? Men and their posturing.
 

crossword

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Thanks, MerriTudor. Btw, I like your username. Yes, I think most romance readers don't mind swaggering and posturing in heroes. It would look odd on heroines. I havent watched The Last of the Mohicans.




Thanks, Marian. Yes, invading personal space is the standard alpha-male behavior. Again it would look odd if a woman did it. Sure, its a double standard but some stuff just looks odder on women than men.



Thanks, Twick. The scene was meant to be filled with dramatic tension, not hotness. I just realized as I wrote it that I like the clashing of powerful males.



Guys, I have doubts about this line:



“I’d trust Cleopatra’s asp before I’d trust Ariston’s ass.”



first, is this line worth keeping or does it sound like i’m trying too hard to be sardonic/funny? I do love comparisons like that but I might overdo them.



Second, I want to list this book under the Clean Romance category on Amazon, and I can’t do that if I use bad language. Well, I can, but then i’ll get angry women giving angry reviews complaining about the language. i’ve seen reviewers complaining of bad language for books in the Cozy Mystery category.



Would ASS be considered bad language?



My work is YA. I have seen the f word used in YA but I cant bring myself to use it. However even language short of the f word can have reviewers complaining they expected a cleaner read.
 

jennontheisland

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So what do you think? Do they sound like theyre just swaggering and posturing?
Mostly, yeah. Plus, at 19 even universe traversing beings don't seem mature enough for me to label them alpha; recalcitrant child was a good descriptor. I'm over 40 but I was just in uni a couple years ago and holy crap, nope, not a single one of those little boys had any kind of manly going on, nevermind alpha. Now, I work in construction, and I see disputes between grown men who are sure they are right all the time... this kind of exchange just always seem like dick measuring to me. Men getting pissy is definitely not a turn on.
 

Silva

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No. Actual, legitimate tension between two people (regardless of their gender or sexiness or whether it's verbal or physical) doesn't turn me on, it scares me.

Friendly verbal sparring, or a repartee between old friends, I do find amusing. I like wit and cleverness and sarcasm.


If you want feedback on specific sections you may want to post it in SYW.
 

Marian Perera

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Thanks, Marian. Yes, invading personal space is the standard alpha-male behavior. Again it would look odd if a woman did it. Sure, its a double standard but some stuff just looks odder on women than men.

My purpose in mentioning that it's standard alpha male behavior is to show that the invasion of personal space is a trope. It's one I've seen a lot of times in romances where the author is trying to show how hot and alpha the guy is. If you feel this trope works for your readers, that's great, but I've read it so often it doesn't do much for me.
 

ElaineA

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I prefer my alpha heroes so certain of their position they don't have to swagger or posture. They can treat others with respect and know it doesn't make them look weak. But that's just one reader's opinion.
 
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CJSimone

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Yes, invading personal space is the standard alpha-male behavior. Again it would look odd if a woman did it. Sure, its a double standard but some stuff just looks odder on women than men.



...I want to list this book under the Clean Romance category on Amazon, and I can’t do that if I use bad language. Well, I can, but then i’ll get angry women giving angry reviews complaining about the language. i’ve seen reviewers complaining of bad language for books in the Cozy Mystery category.



Would ASS be considered bad language?



My work is YA. I have seen the f word used in YA but I cant bring myself to use it. However even language short of the f word can have reviewers complaining they expected a cleaner read.

Hi crossword.

I have female characters who invade personal space. But then I like powerful women.

Even trying to keep your work clean, "ass" is fine for YA. I write YA also, and while lots of YA writers will use words I don't, my standard is if you hear it in primetime TV and commercials, then I'll use it. Ass is widely used and doesn't get bleeped out. I try to avoid certain words partly because some of my content pushes limits for YA (as the story progresses), and I guess I'm trying to balance things.

Good luck with your story.

CJ
 

Twick

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Guys, I have doubts about this line:

“I’d trust Cleopatra’s asp before I’d trust Ariston’s ass.”

first, is this line worth keeping or does it sound like i’m trying too hard to be sardonic/funny? I do love comparisons like that but I might overdo them.

I'd drop or modify it. Not that teens are likely to be shocked to encounter the word "ass," but I don't find the metaphor works here. Why exactly would he be trusting the other man's ass rather than the man himself? You might be able to work something around the wordplay ("Ariston looked as trustworthy as Cleopatra's asp. Cleopatra's ass was more like it.") but the line itself doesn't click for me.

Also, as the scene is written, I'm pretty much on Ariston's side rather than the hero's.
 
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