Grenfell Tower Disaster

cornflake

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The housing crisis I understand -- and live in a city with somewhat similar pricing and problems - but the blocks they're evacuating are ones, as I understand it, that have other issues besides the cladding, like inadequate fire doors.

Well, fix the fire doors? Put people up in hotels for a short period until the fire doors/alarms that sort of thing is fixed, because the people living in blocks with just the cladding as an issue are apparently being allowed to stay.

Also, don't wake people up at 2am and rush them out. That seems just ridiculous. There's nothing that would've been different had they not waited until morning, or put up notices and said in 24 hours, please vacate for X amount of time; if you cannot find temporary housing with a friend or relative, see the on-site rep for assistance. They could've put guards in the buildings for a day while people got stuff together. It just seems like a terrible way to have done things.
 

Xelebes

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The key question about the fire origin isn't that it started in a refrigerator of a certain brand, but what exactly triggered ignition. That, followed by why did that blaze become a conflagration so quickly (which seems to involve the cladding). When I saw video of that bulding ablaze, it astonished me how external the flames were.

caw

Yep.

The cladding itself burns, sure, but it burns like candle wax. That is, it is a polyethylene which melts at temperatures somewhere between 120˚-200˚C. At 200˚C it begins to burn. The main fuel that allowed the cladding to reach flashpoint is the insulation underneath. The insulation is ISO, or a polymer of cyanuric acid. That stuff is flammable and produces a very toxic smoke full of cyanide and carbon monoxide.

Chimney effects are being investigated in the column accents as well as the stairwell. For some reason the main fire exit did not have positive pressure (greater pressure inside than outside) so smoke and fuel was allowed into the stairway as people were trying to escape.
 

neandermagnon

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The housing crisis I understand -- and live in a city with somewhat similar pricing and problems - but the blocks they're evacuating are ones, as I understand it, that have other issues besides the cladding, like inadequate fire doors.

Well, fix the fire doors? Put people up in hotels for a short period until the fire doors/alarms that sort of thing is fixed, because the people living in blocks with just the cladding as an issue are apparently being allowed to stay.

Also, don't wake people up at 2am and rush them out. That seems just ridiculous. There's nothing that would've been different had they not waited until morning, or put up notices and said in 24 hours, please vacate for X amount of time; if you cannot find temporary housing with a friend or relative, see the on-site rep for assistance. They could've put guards in the buildings for a day while people got stuff together. It just seems like a terrible way to have done things.


I agree it's utterly shambolic and they're in full-on headless chicken mode. When it comes to the question "what could they be doing differently?" there's a long list of things that should've been done many years ago such that the current shambles is utterly unsurprising.

They are putting people up in hotels, getting them to stay with friends, relatives etc and providing emergency accommodation in public buildings. The question of whether/if they can return to the buildings after various basic repairs is a bit up in the air because it's going to depend on the fire services declaring that the various buildings are now safe enough for people to live in and the crisis has come out of nowhere (as far as the government and councils are concerned) and if you start asking questions like "why didn't you plan for this?" the answer involves a whole catalogue of things they should've done differently over the last couple of decades. There is so much about this that's "panic now because we'll be up for mass manslaughter charges if it happens again" sticky-plaster* approach.

*band aid in USA - as in trying to treat arterial bleeding with a band aid. Or closing the stable door after all the horses have bolted and wreaked havoc. Or I can't even think of a suitable analogy. Trying to fix a decades old problem in five minutes when you have no clue how to fix it and didn't even know there was a problem until just now.
 

feyngirl

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The housing crisis I understand -- and live in a city with somewhat similar pricing and problems - but the blocks they're evacuating are ones, as I understand it, that have other issues besides the cladding, like inadequate fire doors.

Well, fix the fire doors? Put people up in hotels for a short period until the fire doors/alarms that sort of thing is fixed, because the people living in blocks with just the cladding as an issue are apparently being allowed to stay.

Also, don't wake people up at 2am and rush them out. That seems just ridiculous. There's nothing that would've been different had they not waited until morning, or put up notices and said in 24 hours, please vacate for X amount of time; if you cannot find temporary housing with a friend or relative, see the on-site rep for assistance. They could've put guards in the buildings for a day while people got stuff together. It just seems like a terrible way to have done things.

I completely agree. The response has been a mess.

Yep.

The cladding itself burns, sure, but it burns like candle wax. That is, it is a polyethylene which melts at temperatures somewhere between 120˚-200˚C. At 200˚C it begins to burn. The main fuel that allowed the cladding to reach flashpoint is the insulation underneath. The insulation is ISO, or a polymer of cyanuric acid. That stuff is flammable and produces a very toxic smoke full of cyanide and carbon monoxide.

Chimney effects are being investigated in the column accents as well as the stairwell. For some reason the main fire exit did not have positive pressure (greater pressure inside than outside) so smoke and fuel was allowed into the stairway as people were trying to escape.

My understanding of getting positive pressure is that it would require some form of active control (i.e. air conditioning). I think all of the buildings like Grenfell are too old to have air conditioning. Which is why it's so important to know that any cladding isn't flammable. The chimney effects do appear to have led to the fire spreading faster than expected in an uncladded block, but my understanding is that a similar fast spread was seen in the Dubai fire in 2015, so this was a known problem.

I don't think it would have been practical to retrofit these buildings with air conditioning, but it would have been completely possible to retrofit them with sprinklers and fire-resistant cladding. This was a recommendation after the Lakanal fire, along with revising the advice for people to stay in their flats, but doesn't seem to have led to any action.

ETA - I also take your point that it was the insulation that was very flammable - I tend to think of it as part of the cladding. You're right, the same outer layer of cladding could have been used with a non-flammable form of insulation and that would have probably stopped this tragedy.
 
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Snitchcat

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Disgusting response by the government. I think "headless chicken panic mode" is a kind description. Basic incompetence, negligence, mistreatment, conceit, and a huge lack of basic human decency/compassion seem to be closer descriptions, IMO.

Expressing fury and repugnance here at a government that could -- and should -- have done better. Lazy, selfish [bleeps here].
 

Alessandra Kelley

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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-chelsea-council-brief-apology-slow-response

The Kensington and Chelsea Council (which is responsible for the Grenfell Tower) finally planned to hold a public meeting on the fire yesterday but tried to ban the press and all members of the public from attending. The media got an injunction from the high court that they must be allowed in, at which point the Tory leaders of the council shut down the session, to the visible outrage of the Labour members of the council.

Theresa May's government released a statement that they were disappointed.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...aget-brown-quits-in-wake-of-grenfell-disaster

The Tory councill leader of the Kensington and Chelsea Council quit after the uproar and the government has been urged to step in and take control.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ks-media-attend-grenfell-meeting-clever-stunt

Kensington and chelsea Councillor Catherine Faulks (Tory) sneered that the press attending was a "stunt" committed by outside agitators (not quite her turn of phrase but that's the meaning).

She also had no sympathy for the impoverished Grenfell residents who discovered they are still being charged rent for their destroyed apartments. Faulks' response was "Oh, come on," and that everything will be sorted out eventually (spoken like someone who has never had to count pennies).

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/grenfell-tower-fire-nick-paget-brown-kensington-chelsea-council-brief-apology-slow-response

The Kensington and Chelsea Council (which is responsible for the Grenfell Tower) finally planned to hold a public meeting on the fire yesterday but tried to ban the press and all members of the public from attending. The media got an injunction from the high court that they must be allowed in, at which point the Tory leaders of the council shut down the session, to the visible outrage of the Labour members of the council.

Theresa May's government released a statement that they were disappointed.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/30/kensington-and-chelsea-council-leader-nicholas-paget-brown-quits-in-wake-of-grenfell-disaster

The Tory councill leader of the Kensington and Chelsea Council quit after the uproar and the government has been urged to step in and take control.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/01/tory-councillor-catherine-faulks-media-attend-grenfell-meeting-clever-stunt

Kensington and chelsea Councillor Catherine Faulks (Tory) sneered that the press attending was a "stunt" committed by outside agitators (not quite her turn of phrase but that's the meaning).

She also had no sympathy for the impoverished Grenfell residents who discovered they are still being charged rent for their destroyed apartments. Faulks' response was "Oh, come on," and that everything will be sorted out eventually (spoken like someone who has never had to count pennies).
 

LittlePinto

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Do they want a backhoe for that hole they're digging?
 

frimble3

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So, if the public wasn't allowed, and the press wasn't allowed to tell the public what went on, in what way was this supposed to be a 'public meeting'?
 

James D. Macdonald

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Yep.

The cladding itself burns, sure, but it burns like candle wax. That is, it is a polyethylene which melts at temperatures somewhere between 120˚-200˚C. At 200˚C it begins to burn. The main fuel that allowed the cladding to reach flashpoint is the insulation underneath. The insulation is ISO, or a polymer of cyanuric acid. That stuff is flammable and produces a very toxic smoke full of cyanide and carbon monoxide.

It was the same situation at the Station nightclub fire in Rhode Island some years back.