Grenfell Tower Disaster

Xelebes

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Not much talk on this. Are the Londoners here in the streets right now?

Large (or massive) protests going on right now in London after tower refurbished as cheap as possible to appease the sensibilities of the neighbours has resulted in what people are acknowledging the fact that more than a 100 people have died. Responses by politicians show stark differences and people are livid.

30 confirmed dead so far but numbers hang around 106 to 150.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/grenfell-tower-anger-1.4162855
 

veinglory

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I can't help but keep watching this because what people did during this disaster is incredible. The man who encouraged a woman to drop her 4-year-old from the 5th floor and safely caught her. The man who convinced his family to flee without him because he was injured and feared they would die trying to get him out. The woman who flooded her apartment to last long enough to be rescued. People had to make horrible decisions faced with this terrible inferno.
 

efreysson

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Large (or massive) protests going on right now in London after tower refurbished as cheap as possible to appease the sensibilities of the neighbours

What do you mean about sensibilities?
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Xelebes

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So protests at Kensington Town Hall, Notting Hill Gate, Oxford Circus, and BBC Headquarters. BBC is being accused of downplaying and delaying the count of dead and missing in order to control the messaging so that it is favourable to the May government.
 

LittlePinto

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From the Gizmodo article linked above:
he BBC now reports that that the aluminum cladding was filled with a flammable polyethylene core, the same material found in high-rise fires in France, the United Arab Emirates, and Australia. Ideally, a more expensive but non-flammable material would be used for a project like this.

It looks like "more expensive but non-flammable" in this case would have been an additional £2 per square meter, you know, the one that didn't have a polyethylene core.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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From the Gizmodo article linked above:

It looks like "more expensive but non-flammable" in this case would have been an additional £2 per square meter, you know, the one that didn't have a polyethylene core.

The management company saved a whopping £4,750 by going with the non-fireproof cladding.

The article I just linked to also points out that this is the clear, foreseen, predicted and inevitable result of all the deregulation, cost-cutting and privatization the Conservatives running the UK have indulged in for the last ten years.

Protections for consumers or workers or residents have long been recast and despised as “red tape”, choking plucky entrepreneurs. A favourite slogan of the right was the promise of “a bonfire of regulations”. Well, they got their bonfire all right.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Ouch. Notorious lightweight Boris Johnson tried to deflect criticism away from the Conservative policies that led to this and got slapped down by a London firefighter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EL4JC/st...7?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

(Wow. The only reason the Conservatives can claim that fire deaths have gone down since they slashed funding for firefighters is that smoke inhalation deaths are no longer counted.)
 

LittlePinto

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Ouch. Notorious lightweight Boris Johnson tried to deflect criticism away from the Conservative policies that led to this and got slapped down by a London firefighter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EL4JC/st...7?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet

(Wow. The only reason the Conservatives can claim that fire deaths have gone down since they slashed funding for firefighters is that smoke inhalation deaths are no longer counted.)

Since the majority of fire deaths are due to smoke inhalation, that really improves the numbers. Indeed, going by that accounting, no one died from the Oakland Ghost Ship fire.
 

MaeZe

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The article I just linked to also points out that this is the clear, foreseen, predicted and inevitable result of all the deregulation, cost-cutting and privatization the Conservatives running the UK have indulged in for the last ten years.
No matter how many times we've learned this lesson, here we are learning it again.
 

frimble3

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Talk about bad branding at an equally bad time. Fire started by a Hotpoint fridge...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-cladding-fuse-blown-blaze-dead-a7804246.html

-cb
They've apparently evacuated several similar towers over fears that the same thing might happen. I'm wondering more about the origins of the fridge/freezers - Hotpoint seems to be a brand with a reasonable reputation.
I'm wondering if the councils, in an effort to save a pound, didn't go for refurbished or older models? Seconds, as it were.
 

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The key question about the fire origin isn't that it started in a refrigerator of a certain brand, but what exactly triggered ignition. That, followed by why did that blaze become a conflagration so quickly (which seems to involve the cladding). When I saw video of that bulding ablaze, it astonished me how external the flames were.

caw
 

JCornelius

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The govt was just about to roll back fire safety requirements for building schools in the UK*, because invisible appendages are way better at regulating things like that, but now suddenly decided to be totalitarian communists after all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...urn-over-fire-safety-controls-for-new-schools

The Tories have a serious thing about sprinklers been unnecessary in schools and an expense that just doesn't pay off. Arguing with straight faces that a) in the last decades fires in school are very uncommon, therefore sprinklers are no longer needed, and b) any damage made by a fire due to lack of sprinklers, will be cheaper to fix, than to fit sprinklers in the first place**.
__

*Part of the whole Brexit thing was glorious liberation from all that unnecessary red tape forced upon the long suffering shires by evil continental overlords
**In the last months there was a bunch of articles on how new brain scans show that psychopaths have a withered portion of the brain that deals with empathy. I wonder what a mandatory brain scan of all politicians would show...
 
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frimble3

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The key question about the fire origin isn't that it started in a refrigerator of a certain brand, but what exactly triggered ignition. That, followed by why did that blaze become a conflagration so quickly (which seems to involve the cladding). When I saw video of that bulding ablaze, it astonished me how external the flames were.

caw
Yes, usually with building fires, there's lots of smoke getting out of the building, perhaps some flames seen in the windows. Especially in a concrete tower. This one looked more like wood, or cardboard, which does suggest something flammable on the exterior.
 

cornflake

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I don't understand how they're managing to fuck this up too.

Cladding on 34 tower blocks in 17 council areas in England has failed fire safety tests, the government says.

So far, every sample has failed the tests. The government plans to examine cladding from up to 600 blocks.

The updated figures came as people from the Chalcots estate in Swiss Cottage, north London, spent a second night away from their homes.

But - across the country - not every block that fails safety tests will be evacuated.

Four of the five blocks on the Chalcots estate were evacuated on Friday because of fears over cladding, gas pipes, and fire doors.

Camden Council said it had no option but to move residents from 650 flats while work takes place.

Some of the people evacuated were woken at 2am and told to get out -- one man said he was panicked (what with the pounding on the door and being told to evacuate immediately) and had only a small bit of time to grab some stuff. My local news showed a temporary shelter set up in a school, with small air mattresses all over the gym floor. They said this will take up to a month to fix.

The hell are people meant to do for a month with no notice? Why not put a plan in place and have some guards on duty or something, or fix the attendant issues while you carry it out? What are people with animals, small children, etc., supposed to do? What's anyone? It happens in emergencies and disasters, obviously, but it seems they could have figured this out better.
 

frimble3

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The govt was just about to roll back fire safety requirements for building schools in the UK*, because invisible appendages are way better at regulating things like that, but now suddenly decided to be totalitarian communists after all.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...urn-over-fire-safety-controls-for-new-schools

The Tories have a serious thing about sprinklers been unnecessary in schools and an expense that just doesn't pay off. Arguing with straight faces that a) in the last decades fires in school are very uncommon, therefore sprinklers are no longer needed, and b) any damage made by a fire due to lack of sprinklers, will be cheaper to fix, than to fit sprinklers in the first place**.
__

*Part of the whole Brexit thing was glorious liberation from all that unnecessary red tape forced upon the long suffering shires by evil continental overlords
**In the last months there was a bunch of articles on how new brain scans show that psychopaths have a withered portion of the brain that deals with empathy. I wonder what a mandatory brain scan of all politicians would show...
From the link:
"School buildings do not need sprinkler protection to achieve a reasonable standard of life safety" and "the additional spending would significantly outweigh any relatively modest savings from preventing some damage to school buildings."
These swine don't get it - it's not the school buildings that people care about- it's the people: the children inside the buildings and the staff who will be trying to get them to safety.
Apparently, they were expecting a 2-6% savings. Bet more than that could be saved by withdrawing security from the Houses of Parliament, and Number 10 Downing Street.
At least the legacy of the Grenfell disaster may have curbed their plans for the schools.
 

frimble3

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I don't understand how they're managing to fuck this up too.



Some of the people evacuated were woken at 2am and told to get out -- one man said he was panicked (what with the pounding on the door and being told to evacuate immediately) and had only a small bit of time to grab some stuff. My local news showed a temporary shelter set up in a school, with small air mattresses all over the gym floor. They said this will take up to a month to fix.

The hell are people meant to do for a month with no notice? Why not put a plan in place and have some guards on duty or something, or fix the attendant issues while you carry it out? What are people with animals, small children, etc., supposed to do? What's anyone? It happens in emergencies and disasters, obviously, but it seems they could have figured this out better.
At 2:00 AM? If someone bangs on your door at 2:00 AM, it's a fire, a disaster, or the secret police - what is the point of doing it at that hour, unless the build is actually on fire or crumbling?
 

JCornelius

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I don't understand how they're managing to fuck this up too.



Some of the people evacuated were woken at 2am and told to get out -- one man said he was panicked (what with the pounding on the door and being told to evacuate immediately) and had only a small bit of time to grab some stuff. My local news showed a temporary shelter set up in a school, with small air mattresses all over the gym floor. They said this will take up to a month to fix.

The hell are people meant to do for a month with no notice? Why not put a plan in place and have some guards on duty or something, or fix the attendant issues while you carry it out? What are people with animals, small children, etc., supposed to do? What's anyone? It happens in emergencies and disasters, obviously, but it seems they could have figured this out better.

One would expect this level of incompetent overreaction from Russian or Turkish authorities, not in the UK, but there we are.

I suppose the difference is that in Russia or Turkey only the super-rich with super-connections would not have to go through treatment by the authorities of this kind, while in the UK only the "lower classes," the the Scum With Absolutely No Connections Or Money in buildings of this sort would go through this, in the sense of "By rights you should be living on the streets, you worthless leeches, yet here we are providing you with homes, and even upgrading them, what more do you want? You'll do what we say, when we say it, and you'll like it and you'll say 'thank you!'"
 
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neandermagnon

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The hell are people meant to do for a month with no notice? Why not put a plan in place and have some guards on duty or something, or fix the attendant issues while you carry it out? What are people with animals, small children, etc., supposed to do? What's anyone? It happens in emergencies and disasters, obviously, but it seems they could have figured this out better.


The problem is that there's an ongoing housing crisis whereby poor people (not just the very poorest, ordinary working families on low incomes too) cannot afford decent housing and there's nowhere near enough social housing (ten year waiting list kind of not enough) and this results in huge numbers of people living in inadequate housing, whether social housing or private rented housing (the latter is usually worse due to it being extremely difficult for tenants to get anything done and moving out's not an option if there's nowhere else you can go for the rent you can afford to pay). The reason for this crisis is the Tories failing to build new council houses while also selling off existing council houses (officially, this is the tenants "right to buy" their council house, but very often it's not council tenants that end up owning them) and also a general lack of investment in building new homes and what new homes do get build end up being bought by rich people as second homes or buy-to-lets which basically prices poor people out of the market because they will get sold to whoever offers the most money. London has the very worst of this, with a normal sized family house in London costing about a million quid. It used to be that there were poorer parts of London where housing was still affordable, but rich people are taking over those areas too and more and more of London is becoming completely unaffordable for anyone but the very rich. This problem isn't unique to London, but London has it the worst.

The population has gone up by ten million in a short time - Brexit comes into this because this population increase is due to immigration as the birth rate is around 1.9 children per family. The Tories have been happy to take all the taxes from these new people (they come here to work and so they pay taxes) but have completely and utterly failed to invest this into actual communities. The result is that housing, school places and the NHS have been under greater and greater strain - they're at breaking point. I don't blame this on immigration. Immigration brings taxes and also ensures jobs that are harder to recruit for are filled. I blame the government entirely for failing to invest back into ordinary working communities. The funding that schools get, the amount of school places, the funding that hospitals get, the amount of housing being built and the amount of available social housing has not come close to keeping up with the amount necessary for the growing population. This results in a lot of hardship for ordinary working people who don't stand a hope in hell of ever owning a house and are at the mercy of extortionate rents and IMO the Brexit vote was the result of poor people who have been going through all the problems created by inadequate housing, lack of school places, longer and longer NHS waiting lists, more and more difficult to even get an appointment to see a GP, find a dentist, etc etc etc and then they believe the "vote leave" rhetoric of rich Etonboy twerps like BoJo that have no experience of poverty whatsoever that the problem is immigration and not lack of investment. And then you get the racist twats like Farage that just stir the whole "blame it on the immigrants" thing even more. The result is the working classes shooting themselves in the foot by ending up with the Tories in charge of the country and no EU legislation to fall back on - legislation that's about protecting workers, the poor, the vulnerable etc. Just what BoJo and the other Tory "leave" campaigners wanted all along. And it hasn't got rid of the problem because lack of investment is the problem - it's just going to make things worse.

And due to council housing being sold off and not replaced, social housing has stopped being owned by the councils and is more often owned by private companies like the one that owned Grenfell Tower, where they installed cladding to make the building look prettier for rich people who lived nearby rather than giving a shit about the poor people who live in the tower... they're a sitting market because they have nowhere else to go because there are literally no other houses that anyone can afford on a normal income. Installing fire alarms and sprinkler systems (Grenfell tower had neither) is too expensive for these private companies and who cares what the residents say because they have no choice to go and live anywhere else. They voiced concerns about fire safety but no-one listened.

So yeah the reason why there's nowhere for poor people evacuated from unsafe housing to is because there is no housing. Unless rich people want to put people up in their luxury flats/houses and second homes that have been inflating the housing market prices. The government has to evacuate people from these buildings as if there's another fire like Grenfall then the people in charge of housing at the councils would be criminally responsible and end up in jail for a very long time on manslaughter charges. They're being put up in hotels and public buildings but there's no other housingn for them to be moved to. I have no idea what the government is going to do about any of this. I would hope it would lead to them actually building lots of council houses and building homes specifically for low to moderate income first time buyers. But I'm not holding my breath.

Nick Clegg said something interesting recently... he said that when he was in that powersharing Lib Dem-Tory government, every time he tried to bring up the issue of social housing he was met with Tories asking him why he'd want that as social housing breeds Labour voters. That's the Tory's answer to the housing crisis. They genuinely don't give a shit and don't seem to even be aware that any problem exists.
 
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feyngirl

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The thing which really shocked me, apart from all thethings which people have discussed above, was that all the samples failed fire safety tests but they were never tested until now. Industries are allowed to self-certify performance, and in theory this can be audited. Why wasn't this done by anyone ever? Especially since we already had a similar disaster in south London back in 2009, where the fire also spread very quickly because of panels cladding the outside which were not fire resistant like they were meant to be. That time the block was smaller and the fire started higher, so not so many people died. But this was a known problem.

As neandermagnon says, this sort of social housing is desperately needed in London because it's so ridiculously expensive. London shouldn't just be for the rich, and frankly it can't be, because an entire city of bankers would crumble in half a day.

Now, of course, there's a huge reaction because the government knows people are angry, and so they're evacuating people at 2am and taking the cladding off. The long term lesson should be that all housing should be constructed to a high standard because everyone deserves a safe home. But I have a nasty suspicion that the lesson that will actually be learned is that the government should sell off social housing because then it can't be blamed for anything.