'The A stands for Ally'

Albedo said:

It's not your right to tell people who don't identify as straight that they actually are straight and are wrong about their identities.

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People can identify however they want.

miss marisa said:

Bisexuality describes who we're attracted to. Asexuality describes how we experience sexual attraction.

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Just to clarify: what I'm getting from all this is that you feel that only the "B" part of your identity gives you a place in the LGBT+ community, not the "A" part. Is this a correct reading?

edutton said:

Just to clarify: what I'm getting from all this is that you feel that only the "B" part of your identity gives you a place in the LGBT+ community, not the "A" part. Is this a correct reading?

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Yes.

Again, my two cents. Just to be clear.

miss marisa said:

Yes.

Again, my two cents. Just to be clear.

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OK, thank you.

Cyia said:

But they can become squatters.

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Not here they can't.

Cyia said:

Isn't this kind of like debating whether or not an atheist is a Christian atheist or a Hindu atheist?

It's not check A or B; it's A, B, both, or neither.

(clueless outsider question)

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I was wondering the same thing. The "how to categorize asexuality" discussion is new to me, but my first thought was how little sense it makes to define "athiesm" as a religion in its own right, and how irritating it is when people insist on doing so.

However, I was also put in mind of a something I learned years ago in a developmental psychology class. The basic idea was that there's no such thing as a "baby;" there's only a "mother and baby." ("mother" in that discussion, didn't require the person be female or biologically related. It was used as shorthand for "primary caretaker.") Basically, a baby without a "mother" would die, so a "baby," as a standalone entity effectively didn't/couldn't exist (at least, not for long). Which brings us to orphans. At first glance, they would seem to be the exception to this rule. However, "orphans" are literally defined by their lack of a "mother." The "mother/baby" relationship is so vital to survival that it's front and center in their existence, even (or especially) when it's absent.

So the question becomes, which version is more correct when applied to sexuality and lack thereof?

Sexuality is hugely important in human existance, so it could be said that asexuality should still be defined in terms of sexuality, and that "asexual" is in and of itself a type of sexuality.

However, unlike in the baby/mother situation, nobody will die just because they don't have sex, which would make me think it's more like atheism. In that case, calling "asexuality" a form of sexuality would be as stupid as calling someone who hates football "just a special type of football fan."

My brain hurts.

One thing I AM confident of. Asexuals have more of a need for, and right to, that "A" than Allies do.

ETA: I apologize if anything I've said here is foolish or hurtful. I'm venturing into unfamiliar territory, and I'm sure my ignorance is showing.

AW Admin said:

Not here they can't.

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Oh, no. That wasn't what I meant.

I meant that people who move in on someone else's territory can often decide they've rights to stay beyond the point they're welcome, turning a once welcoming atmosphere toxic.

Well, dominant U.S. culture is racing full-boar back into the 70s.

I for one am not in favor of a parallel regression to a time when Some non-normative people told Other non-normative people "You can't sit with us!"

We don't need another health/suicide crisis to remind us once again that the table is big enough for every misunderstood, erased, maligned, oppressed orientation/identity.

The "A" in QUILTBAG is for Ace+ and misc. Aligned persons. I don't ever associate it with Straight Allies, who are meant to be primarily active in the dominant population as open advocates for known queer causes/issues (not taking over and running their own plays).

I identify as Queer - it was good enough for people to say to my face, and about me behind their hands. Kids these days would call me Pan; at a certain point, IMO, it's kind of OK to stop adding letters.

But we certainly cannot find it OK to exclude any non-normative People from community.

Honestly, I don't think anyone should tell anyone that they don't belong in a forum designed to be a safe space, even if it is their honest opinion. But, that's just me.

Diana Hignutt said:

Honestly, I don't think anyone should tell anyone that they don't belong in a forum designed to be a safe space, even if it is their honest opinion. But, that's just me.

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In case no one's picked up on it yet, Miss Marisa has been blocked from QUILTBAG for the last 50 minutes or so.

I wasn't kidding about reading the thrice-damned sticky. And you'll notice that the sticky includes the phrase "You will not receive any warnings."

Alessandra Kelley said:

I went to college long enough ago that the school club was simply the "Gay and Lesbian Alliance."

And the lesbian part was controversial, because what do they have to do with us? said the basically white guys who ran the thing.

I am totally an outsider-ally in this. But I have gotten some inkling that some among the QUILTBAG community have a long and ugly history of trying to keep other oppressed sexualities out.

This seems like only the latest iteration of that.

Anyone who wants to gatekeep who gets sanctuary in this community had better not be relying simply on feelings and personal squick.

(Is that not why the community had to be founded in the first place?)

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I swear that National Gay Men's Health Crisis at one point tried to include "...& Lesbian" in their official title and people lost their shit because girls in the boys' clubhouse or something. And when the abbreviation was first widely used, it was GLBT; now that it's "officially" LGBT, who and where and why it was decided is lost in the mists of time, people look at me askance when I switch it to GLBT.

BenPanced said:

I swear that National Gay Men's Health Crisis at one point tried to include "...& Lesbian" in their official title and people lost their shit because girls in the boys' clubhouse or something. And when the abbreviation was first widely used, it was GLBT; now that it's "officially" LGBT, who and where and why it was decided is lost in the mists of time, people look at me askance when I switch it to GLBT.

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Oh, lord, I remember when UCLA changed from GLBT to LGBT and people had meltdowns. All kinds of people with all kinds of meltdowns.

And the primary reason for the change was, as best I can remember, that "everyone else is changing."

Albedo said:

This is my personal feeling. I spent most my adult life considering myself an ally (because I wasn't attracted to men I was obviously heterosexual, it being the default state and everything, despite never having had a moment of sexual feeling for anyone else either ... thanks internalised a-blindness!), but I never thought I should be entitled to a seat at the table. Being an ally should be the bare minimum expectation. They don't award medals for being a decent human being.

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Can I get a "boom-shaka-laka" from the choir?

I've never understood why doing the right thing for another human being means you should get a marching band and a parade down Main Street. For Black folks it's annoying as shit when someone says, "Well, I marched with MLK!" like that means you're owed something.

My response to that would be, "Hey, that's so cool! What was King like? Are your feet tired? You probably wanna sit down, right?"

You do what's necessary because it's the right thing to do. I'm an ally because people whom are being done dirty need to know somebody's got their back. I don't get a Gay Ally card I can use for discounts and I'm not holding out my hand looking for a cookie too.

Alessandra Kelley said:

It's not about straight people! Geez!

I am losing all patience with privileged groups who respond to pleas for recognition and diversity by insisting that to be honest diversity must include them and then making damned sure they are still front and center.

A true ally supports without demanding the spotlight.

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Oh, that is SO, SO true. Walk with me, but don't try to lead me. I already know where I'm going.

I don't necessarily want to be a leader, but neither do I want to be a follower. Particularly not of someone who may be genuinely sympathetic to my plight (Hello, Rachel Dolezal!), and actually informed, but in the final analysis is only visiting a world I have to try and live in. My very real issues are not a tourist attraction.

miss marisa said:

I think it's my right to not want straight people in the LGBT community.

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I think you're well within your rights to not want straight people in the LGBT community just as I have the right to not want non-Black people in the Black community.

That isn't what an ally would do, but it probably is what a segregationist would do.

BenPanced said:

And when the abbreviation was first widely used, it was GLBT; now that it's "officially" LGBT, who and where and why it was decided is lost in the mists of time, people look at me askance when I switch it to GLBT.

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I was thinking about that switch the other day, actually, and yeah - I don't remember really noticing until it was effectively over. I wonder how much of it comes down "LG" being a bit easier to pronounce smoothly than "GL"?

Spoken language embraces transitions like that, always has.

edutton said:

I was thinking about that switch the other day, actually, and yeah - I don't remember really noticing until it was effectively over. I wonder how much of it comes down "LG" being a bit easier to pronounce smoothly than "GL"?

Spoken language embraces transitions like that, always has.

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I think that's true, but I don't, in my personal experience, recall that being part of the discussion. You have to realize, back in the 1980s, when queer theory had really only just arrived, that this kind of thing was fraught with emotion and stress for people. '

I mean, it wasn't that long ago that there were entirely separate student associations for gay men and lesbian and bi women. It got politically ugly, a lot, and there were the associated issues with lesbian invisibility and bi phobia, as well.

Which is why we're not going to tell other people how to identify, and why I'm really not keen on lots of little segregated Bento boxes. The sticky says it pretty clearly.

AW Admin said:

I think that's true, but I don't, in my personal experience, recall that being part of the discussion.

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Point taken! I was thinking less of people who made a conscious decision to use one version or the other, and more of a casual shift in the spoken language, that in turn influences the way people think it and thus how they write it.

Just a passing thought, really, based on my strictly-amateur reading in linguistics.

nighttimer said:

I think you're well within your rights to not want straight people in the LGBT community just as I have the right to not want non-Black people in the Black community.

That isn't what an ally would do, but it probably is what a segregationist would do.

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Again, the stickie is a good guide.

I remember panty checks at lesbian events; didn't find it acceptable then, don't now.

But in the context of allies and personal identity:

We don't get to tell other people how to identify.
We do get to identify ourselves for ourselves.

But one of the values of allowing responsible allies in queer spaces is that we're demonstrating that we're here, we're not straight, and we're not going away, and that this is who we are.

I, personally, don't tend to go down the acronym route and stick with the squishy "queer" approach. But there are contexts where some specificity can be important, of different groups and for different reasons.

nighttimer said:

You do what's necessary because it's the right thing to do. I'm an ally because people whom are being done dirty need to know somebody's got their back. I don't get a Gay Ally card I can use for discounts and I'm not holding out my hand looking for a cookie too.

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This.

And when there are specific situations where an ally needs to be educated or supported in a way that would be disruptive to LGBTQA+ spaces, it should be pointed out that there are organizations specifically for allies too, like PFLAG (though I wish the name had changed by now to be more inclusive). I haven't joined any, but I think they focus more on issues related to using their privilege to help, how to be be supportive of QUILTBAG friends and family members, how to educate oneself and other straight people, and (possibly), and providing a supportive environment to parents and family members who want to work through their own feelings about having a gay, lesbian, transgender etc. child without usurping the needs of the community their family member belongs to.