No Christian writers in SYW?

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Deb Kinnard

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Yeah, the Bible's certainly all squeaky-clean and conflict-free, ain't it?

And John, it grieves me to hear you're on hiatus. You're a very fine writer.
 

Paula Davids

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Plenty of Christian writers (I'm one, if you include Catholics in that), but not a whole lot of Christian fiction. That genre seems to have a religious experience at its heart, and I've noticed a real preference for true stories rather than fiction among people I know who read this stuff.

Hi everyone,
To get back to Christian themes in SYW, I think that KathleenT puts her finger on an important issue (or a Pilate puts it: “What is truth?”). It seems to me that the most ‘truthful’ Christian writing either has to be biographical or it has to dress up theological positions allegorically. The first is easy enough – if someone is blessed enough to have God pay real attention to him and responds to it with character. (Unfortunately, it is even easier for someone to just be zealous and blind to reality, perhaps, for example, like that bigoted pastor mentioned by Carrie.) The second is extremely demanding. And the real challenge there is not writing narrowly conformist material that panders to conservative Christian prejudice and begs all the important questions on the grounds of ‘faith’. It is clothing the spiritual truths of Christianity in metaphors that do not insult the intelligence and sensibilities of non-Christians – putting Jesus across in ways that actually make sense and ring true to agnostics, atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and more.
So, the question is, is anyone up to doing that in SYW.
 

pschmehl

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I think that's what my book does. It's fiction, but it's a story about a man who has a religious experience that benefits him immensely. It's not biographical but reads like a biography. In fact, several agents mistook it for a memoir.
 

Shepherd

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I'm new to the Absolute Write website. In fact, this is my first post. I plan to retire from 44 years in the ministry at the end of the year. A high priority in retirement is to finally finish my first novel. (I've written 37,522 words. I'm about halfway there.) My problem with much "Christian fiction" is that too much of it is about as subtle as a street preacher in a polyester leisure suit waving a big red bible. Too many authors of this genre seem to fear that their readers will not get the message if it is not "in your face." It's like reading an annotated edition of Moby Dick written for 6th graders. We have to trust our readers more.

My novel is historical fiction, the story of the 1914 Christmas truce in Flanders through the eyes of four soldiers: 2 British, 1 French, and 1 German. My goal is not evangelism. Rather, I hope to demonstrate the impact of Christian beliefs and values (or in some cases their absence) through the lives of my characters. I hope to demonstrate that Christianity is an attractive proposition but I'll not be trying to close the sale.
 

travelgal

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I loved how the Flanders truce was depicted in 'Warhorse'. Good luck with it!
 

Kylie Chanae

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I've been deliberating about that- writing C-fic about real people- because I'm partner writing a C-fic novel, but I keep re-writing the first couple chapters over and over again because I can't decide how much liberty I can have with my characters. In the real world, people curse and lie and cheat. Yet, in C-fic, it seems like all characters must act like saints in order to not offend one's readers. How do you write something that's realistic, believable, and meaningful when you have to limit all your characters' morality to that of church grandmas?
 

pschmehl

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I've been deliberating about that- writing C-fic about real people- because I'm partner writing a C-fic novel, but I keep re-writing the first couple chapters over and over again because I can't decide how much liberty I can have with my characters. In the real world, people curse and lie and cheat. Yet, in C-fic, it seems like all characters must act like saints in order to not offend one's readers. How do you write something that's realistic, believable, and meaningful when you have to limit all your characters' morality to that of church grandmas?
Kylie, I think an occasional damn or hell is probably acceptable. I doubt other words would be. What I do is write it and then go back and either remove the curse words or alter them (darn instead of damn, heck instead of hell) in some cases. Sometimes, only a curse word will do.

For example, I'm currently working on a novel about a man who goes to Vietnam, then comes home and has to deal with all that war entails. During the battles, he says hell and damn, because that's what soldiers do. I actually toned it down a great deal, but removing all of it would be completely unrealistic. For example, my character says damn commies and damn vc a lot. It's part of who he is. He's a nominal Christian, not a devout one. I was in the Navy for six years. If I wanted to be completely realistic, the book would be filled with cussing. But, it's the characters and their emotions that really matter when writing, not the precise words they speak or think. So you can work around the problem to a degree, so long as it doesn't get silly. If your character says dad burn it instead of G D it, there's nothing wrong with that so long as it's consistent.

I'd be happy to look at a chapter or two and comment on it, if you want to do that.

Bottom line? If you're offended by every cuss word in a book, don't read mine. That doesn't make my book any less C-fic.

As far as lying and cheating does, I see no limitations on that. Christians certainly don't abstain from that - even the ones who claim they do.
 
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Evelyn_Alexie

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How do you write something that's realistic, believable, and meaningful when you have to limit all your characters' morality to that of church grandmas?

I think you can use that to your advantage. A character who's a Christian might not always behave the way the Bible says they should -- but they should want to live that way, and they should try to live that way. You can get some lovely conflict when a character's trying to head in one direction and most of the people around him are going in another.

(Yet another reason people think writers are strange. When it comes to writing, conflict is your friend.):rant::Hug2:
 
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Fruitbat

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... Yet, in C-fic, it seems like all characters must act like saints in order to not offend one's readers. How do you write something that's realistic, believable, and meaningful when you have to limit all your characters' morality to that of church grandmas?

You'd be surprised what those church grandmas have seen and done during their long lifetimes!
 
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JetFueledCar

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*raises hand* Do Catholics count as Christians today?

I don't read or write C-fic because my worlds start at the edge of ours. I read and write almost exclusively specfic. If I read contemporary, it's going to be because it teaches me something new about the human experience, much the reason I read nonfiction when I read it. Especially given the sanitized version of humanity it seems C-fic goes for, I'm not likely to pick it up.

I do, however, have something of an ongoing couple projects that are... not Christian fantasy, but certainly fantasy whose driving force is the Christian cosmos, with all that that entails. I've got a fantastical mystery about archangels and prophets, and somewhere on my drive I have one where I redeemed Lucifer. Because way back when, someone let slip that in Islam and in Christian occult theory, Lucifer fell because he wouldn't bow to humans. And this spawned all KINDS of plot bunnies in my head.

Also, regarding cursing: I cuss people out on a fairly regular basis, but I try not to even let my friends say g**damn or use Jesus's name as an expletive around me. I still say "oh my gosh" and I'm 26. It makes me quite uncomfortable otherwise. My mom instilled that in me as a child, not by emphasizing that it's "bad," but by asking how I'd feel if someone used MY name like that. (It also didn't help when I read Hammered, third book in the Iron Druid Chronicles, and Jesus mentioned that he routinely heard people saying his name during sex. That... yeah, that convinced me.)
 

DuncanClinch

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I've written 2 novels with Christian characters, but I made a point of not beating people over the head with religion. The first novel has a Christmas theme, but it needs another re-write to cut its size. The other novel is meant for children from the 3rd to 5-6th grades, but since I'm an only child and have no children I don't have any children to get feedback from to even know if I have the reading level right.

The Christmas novel has a crusading Santa Claus and an orphanage (like you'd expect otherwise?), but it also has a lonely (and very much aged) widow and a lawyer whose marriage is on the rocks because his wife is a drunk.

The children's novel is set on the eve of the Great Depression and deals with bullying while a cat and dog act out the parable of the Prodigal Son.

I take a dim view of organized churches in both novels.
 

Troyen

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This has been a very interesting and good thread to read. I am not published anyway yet, but have been thinking about putting more of God into my stories, and wondered if the CF market would be something to look into. Still not too sure about that. I have been trying to read more of it, and I don't think the rules mentioned are always followed. I've been reading a lot of Terri Blackstock, and in the book I just finished, she had a teen character who drank to the point of getting drunk. There were some consequences, but the hangover was probably the worst one. She was still with it enough to tell the boy who wanted to take advantage of her "no," and nothing very serious happened to her as a result of the drinking. Also, I have read one or two CF books that were less about the religion, and more about the story. (That is the best way I know how to say it).
Gravity, have you ever read Robert Whitlow? I have read a couple of his, and would not say they are for 30 year old moms only. If you haven't read any of his, you may like them. The one I am almost finished with is a little like CF meets John Grisham. He has included some drinking in his, but I think I am noticing that he only shows that with characters who are not saved yet.
Well I personally don't think social drinking or dancing (so long as it isn't the exotic type) are a big deal. I know plenty of Christians who engage in both and would easily agree with me. But I do know that not all Christians agree on all points of right and wrong. That may be the cause of the restrictions. Perhaps they are focusing on what Paul said about not doing anything that might cause another believer to stumble. Pretty tough with so many perspectives.
 

Gravity

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This has been a very interesting and good thread to read. I am not published anyway yet, but have been thinking about putting more of God into my stories, and wondered if the CF market would be something to look into. Still not too sure about that. I have been trying to read more of it, and I don't think the rules mentioned are always followed. I've been reading a lot of Terri Blackstock, and in the book I just finished, she had a teen character who drank to the point of getting drunk. There were some consequences, but the hangover was probably the worst one. She was still with it enough to tell the boy who wanted to take advantage of her "no," and nothing very serious happened to her as a result of the drinking. Also, I have read one or two CF books that were less about the religion, and more about the story. (That is the best way I know how to say it).
Gravity, have you ever read Robert Whitlow? I have read a couple of his, and would not say they are for 30 year old moms only. If you haven't read any of his, you may like them. The one I am almost finished with is a little like CF meets John Grisham. He has included some drinking in his, but I think I am noticing that he only shows that with characters who are not saved yet.
Well I personally don't think social drinking or dancing (so long as it isn't the exotic type) are a big deal. I know plenty of Christians who engage in both and would easily agree with me. But I do know that not all Christians agree on all points of right and wrong. That may be the cause of the restrictions. Perhaps they are focusing on what Paul said about not doing anything that might cause another believer to stumble. Pretty tough with so many perspectives.

Yep, I've read Whitlow. He's a fine writer.
 

rwhegwood

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I write Christian fiction but have no interest in the CBA. Too restrictive. The Academy of Imaginative Literature, a new Christian friendly writers site launched a couple of days ago and features my first story sale. Anyway, it's a new token market. I've another story, SFF, in a formatting edit that I hope to send to IGMS about a nun, some aliens, and a sentient scent. So, we exist, but I've not seen many frequent contributors in this section. It's catch as catch can here, not that I've been active recently. That said, I think Christian writers who don't fit in the CBA world are self-marketing their own stuff to places like Amazon and Kobo.
 
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Ms.Pencila

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I'll put my hand up with JetFueledCar hoping we can get a yes from any non-Catholics? (No personal doubts about being Catholic AND Christian, though)

I'm pretty sure all my writing is infused with my faith, (to varying degrees)- it actually seems near impossible for writing to completely conceal something that fundamental to a person, regardless of how subtly it may slip in, or how unintentionally some of it might be revealed. That doesn't translate automatically into overt or preachy themes, but it does impact it significantly.

The beauty and power of fiction is that it can hold a lot more than "just a story"- hopefully it communicates a truth to the reader, enriching their experience of humanity and reality (even in specfic, which can ironically shown up truths about the real world by playing with all sorts of "facts").

Which is a long way of saying: if I can possibly reach a broader audience instead of talking about fantasy to the choir, I'll go for the broader audience.
 

rwhegwood

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There is an Orthodox writer starting to get noticed. Nicholas Kotar. He is the choir director at the ROCOR seminary in Jordanville. His stories are based mostly on variations and extrapolations of Russian fairy tales. I've just recently learned of him, and to my surprise just last week heard members of my parish gushing over his Song of the Sirin. "couldn't put it down" sort of comments. He's got a beautiful website, and I think we will be hearing more of him in and out of Christian circles in the future. Here is the link to his website: http://nicholaskotar.com

I wrote to him concerning my own questions/doubts about writing Christian fantasy and science fiction, and how to serve God with fiction. Here is a portion of his reply: "However, there are plenty of Orthodox clerics (monks included) who consider Christian fantasy to be a worthy endeavor. Personally, I consider it necessary on the level of culture creation. I think it's the perfect vehicle to reintroduce Christianity to the newly pagan peoples of the formerly Christian West. Good luck with your work! Keep writing!"
 
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rwhegwood

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*raises hand* Do Catholics count as Christians today?

I don't read or write C-fic because my worlds start at the edge of ours. I read and write almost exclusively specfic. If I read contemporary, it's going to be because it teaches me something new about the human experience, much the reason I read nonfiction when I read it. Especially given the sanitized version of humanity it seems C-fic goes for, I'm not likely to pick it up.

I do, however, have something of an ongoing couple projects that are... not Christian fantasy, but certainly fantasy whose driving force is the Christian cosmos, with all that that entails. I've got a fantastical mystery about archangels and prophets, and somewhere on my drive I have one where I redeemed Lucifer. Because way back when, someone let slip that in Islam and in Christian occult theory, Lucifer fell because he wouldn't bow to humans. And this spawned all KINDS of plot bunnies in my head.

Also, regarding cursing: I cuss people out on a fairly regular basis, but I try not to even let my friends say g**damn or use Jesus's name as an expletive around me. I still say "oh my gosh" and I'm 26. It makes me quite uncomfortable otherwise. My mom instilled that in me as a child, not by emphasizing that it's "bad," but by asking how I'd feel if someone used MY name like that. (It also didn't help when I read Hammered, third book in the Iron Druid Chronicles, and Jesus mentioned that he routinely heard people saying his name during sex. That... yeah, that convinced me.)

Other dimensions and/or other worlds certainly carry theological implications, and I don't see why in certain circumstances Chrisitan theology and ethos, or even the faith itself cannot bleed over. I cannot speak in detail to varying schools Protestant soteriology or eschatology, but the Orthodox theological gnosisphere offers a lot of territory to explore in literature. The visions and experiences of the Desert Fathers are very rich veins to mine if done respectfully. Foundational to Orthodox soteriology is the idea that Christ to redeem not just man, but the whole of creation...that provides huge scope. Corrolary to that is the idea that salvation has much less to do with getting to heaven, than becoming heaven. All creation exists to be fulfilled as an event of communion. Or to put it more mundanely...and too simply is that creation is meant to be both a vessel of and communicator of the Divine...like a wet sponge communicates water with but a touch or a red-hot iron pulled from the burning coals communicate fire to whatever it touches. Theology, genuine theology, not the stuff learned in classrooms and read from books, is experiential. It is honey tasting from the comb...an experience no paper on honey chemistry will ever communicate, nor is able to communicate.

You mentioned a story about a repentant angel, Lucifer, I think. Consider the implications embodied in that conceit. How does a fallen angel repent, especially the worst of the lot? If angels can repent, why haven't any...or have there been any? If they can't what prevents them? How can that obstacle be overcome, if it can be overcome? Some insight can be gained from the Book of Enoch, which has an extensive section on the nefellim, fallen angels and the degrees of their fall. Some are in a much worse state than others.

Patristic Orthodox theology teaches that angels can't repent because that are non corporial. They have no flesh as we do, and not weakened in their intellect and natives powers as is man who is very changeable. We can repent because our nature permits us to change, even back and forth. Angels have a will that once directed in change is fixed in that decision. They are not mortal and are not able or willing of their own accord to redirect their eyes, so to speak.

So with that in mind here is an angel/demon story from the time of the desert fathers (I believe) that shows a little of the places one can go.
Once there was an old monk, a holy man who lived alone in his cell in the desert. His life was a constant struggle of prayer and repentance, and because he had made so much progress, and had remained steadfast in it so long, a devil came to torment him, and did so from many years. It suggested lewd things. It tried to insinuate laxity, or dispair. It even tried to infuriate him at prayer by knocking off his hat.

Finally after one particularily disruptive night where the devil knocked off his hat again and again, the monk turned to the devil and made the sign of the cross fixing it in place. The devil could not move, neither to trouble the monk or to leave his little hut. The monk returned to his prayers but soon enough was disturbed by the shrieks and wails of the devil. It said the prayers burn him terribly and he could not bear to hear them and begged to be released. The monk continued to pray, and the devil wailed and cried out all them more. It promised to leave and never to return if the monk would just have mercy and free him. The monk thought for a moment and then said that he would release the devil on one condition. Eagarly the devil agreed, anything to be free.

The monk then made his demand, that the devil should sing the song of creation that all the sons of God (the angels) had sung at the dawn of creation before the fall. The devil said he could not remember, so the monk continued to prayer and let the devil scream and cry a good while before he regarded it again. This time the devil said it was impossible because even if he remembered the song, there was no way the monk, who was of mortal flesh could hear it and live. Once more the monk returned to his prayers.

Finally the devil cried, "Enough. I yield," and began to sing. At first, his voice was raw and hoarse and horrible to hear. It croaked, and stuttered, and growled and quavered, but gradually became clearer, and more fluid, less harsh, and-and the evening hurried into the wee hours of morning the song had grown majestic and beautiful and splendid beyond all words to tell. When the sun broke and its golden ray showed through the tiny window of the little hut it illumined the old monk who now lied dead upon the floor, his face serene and blissful. And over him stood a great and glorious angel whose wings spread wide and whose voice poured forth the bright celestial hymn no mortal ear can hear and live.
 

Fictionalizer

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I found these two unusual FB groups which I belong to:
Edgy Christian Speculative Fiction: This is a group to promote, discuss, and bring attention to edgy Christian speculative fiction.

What is edgy Christian speculative fiction?

Edgy = having a bold, provocative, or unconventional quality.

Christian = of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or his teachings: a Christian faith.

Speculative Fiction = A broad literary genre encompassing any fiction with supernatural, fantastical, or futuristic elements.

In general terms, it is science fiction/fantasy/horror/supernatural fiction with Christian themes and edgy content, such as sexual themes, language, drug use, and violence. Authors of this genre by no means include this edgy content simply to be 'edgy', but to write great fiction that is both realistic, entertaining, and can appeal to both Christians and non-Christians alike.

Edgy Christian Speculative Fiction is a specific niche that does not include Christian romance - regardless if it falls within speculative genres. Edgy Christian Speculative Fiction group was designed to bring together those who write outside of that particular type of content (Christian romance).


and

Christian Speculative Fiction: A group for authors and fans of Christian Speculative Fiction, including science fiction, steampunk, fantasy, futuristic, alternate history, modern fantasy, horror [vampire/werewolf/zombies/etc], super hero, apocalyptic, Biblical and apologetics fiction from a Christian worldview.

I'm writing something like edgy Christian yet slightly different. It is a literary/thriller with Christian leanings where the main character acts human not "super" human because he's a Christian. I've had many Christians on a forum for Christians, not writers, say they'd be interested in reading a literary/thriller with Christian leanings. There is the desire and I don't think Christian literary agents are paying attention to that. I also want my novels to appeal to both Christians and non-Christians.
 

pschmehl

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In my opinion, at least one of the purposes of writing Christian fiction is to engage a non-Christian audience, to cause them to rethink what it means to be a Christian, and to help them realize that Christians are real people struggling with real problems. If we can go beyond the caricature and show the living flesh behind it, that will go a long way to opening eyes. And after all, as a Christian, one of our goals is to bring people to a belief in God. Our writing shouldn't be preachy. It should be enlightening as well as entertaining.
 

Melody

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Sorry to jump in late to the party, but agree with what others have said as far as their goals. I've only published two CF novels so far, and both were this year. My characters are most definitely flawed and have lots of growing up to do. My goal is to encourage Christians, and those young people looking into faith issues, (my characters are young people) that it is okay to NOT have all your ducks in a row. Growth is what is important. I hope the people who are not involved in spiritual activities will see the same thing my characters do and perhaps try to include God in the picture, as they see my needy and flawed characters get on their knees and start relying on God to help and guide them. My goal is to be subtle and not heavy-handed on either front and also to try and tell an entertaining story to whoever decides to read the books. None of my main characters are wimps, but yes, there is an underlying message of dependence upon God as well as family and close friends.
 
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