No Christian writers in SYW?

pschmehl said:

IOW, they want non-human characters. That's ridiculous. I think I'll stick to self-publshing. The last thing I need is to deal with "Christians" with a stick up their butt.

I firmly believe that there is a readership for C-fic, but not when it's constricted to a ridiculous unrealistic subset of the most zealous followers of all, especially when, if you actually investigate their lives, you'll find they're not nearly as "holy" as they pretend to be.

My books will be about real people. People who hurt, have self-doubt, wonder if God is real, get angry at God when life takes a bad turn, etc., etc., etc. IOW, real people.

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SP is something that's definitely an option, but I'm not ready to take that leap - mostly because I *know* that I don't know what I don't know, and I'm not ready to give up on traditional pub enough to devote all the time I need to study SP.

One of the best FB groups is Avid Readers of C-Fic. They have rules about self-promotion that are fairly strict. I'm in a few others, but I hesitate to recommend because they're more niche.

Calla Lily said:

Thing is, pubs can be unwilling to take a chance on non-mainstream C-fic. It's worse now than it used to be because of your sentence above, the one I highlighted in blue.

In my generalized opinionated opinion, C-fic pubs appear to think their readers want only a certain type of book. Amish romance, for example, which is still popular. Of a 4-sided rotating carrel I saw in May in a C-fic section, one side was super-positive-happy Christian self-help, one was Bible studies, 1-1/2 was Amish romance and the other half was non-Amish sweet romance. (I have nothing against romance. One could say the same of cozy mysteries featuring cats.)

So, if the pubs think AMISH ROMANCE! and acquire only Amish romance and stores offer only Amish romance, C-fic buyers may think, "Oh, well. At least I know it'll be Godly." And the cycle continues.

Even C-fic "romantic suspense" might have an uphill climb in the mainstream market. I vividly remember Barbour's guidelines from 10 years ago. They've since taken them down, so I don't know if they've changed. But back then, the rules included: No character may drink, dance, or attend a Hallowe'en party. If a character (even a villain) needs to tell a lie, it must be cleared with the editor. At the end of the book, MMC and FMC must both belong to a Bible-believing church.

That's when I jumped over the canyon to mainstream.
<snip>

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I think this is a big part of it - those on high are telling the market what the market wants instead of asking. And with more fiction imprints closing down or migrating to non-fiction... UGH.

Thanks for all the input. It's valuable to discuss these things with other writers. ♥

pschmehl said:

Carrie, forgive my ignorance. What is SP? I'm new at all this and completely unfamiliar with all the acronyms.

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Self Publishing. There's an an FAQ: The Absolute Write Dictionary that might help a little; it can be confusing.

Sunday morning, I submitted the prelude to my christian historical, Dress Her in Chameleon, in Religious SYW.

You did ask, so I'll answer. My reasons are somewhat the same as John's. He and I were each, separately, kicked to the curb by a small CBA press I won't name. That soured me, but isn't the whole answer.

I first self-published as a lark. "Let's see if this mainstream romance will find its feet." It did. My critique partner and my editor both read it and said various versions of "Whoa, without all those CBA restrictions, you set your voice free and it GLOWS."

That sort of praise (and my editor had edited my very first published novel back in '01, so she knows all my bad habits) resonated with me. I went back and re-read a couple of my C-fic titles and you can see the Thou Shalt Nots breathing in my word choices, my theme choices, my habits of dancing around the sheer business of humans being humans.

I published four more mainstream books myself. I feel free of the restrictions and unless I try something under a pen name, I won't retrogress back into this limited mindset.

To illustrate: I was told at various times over twelve years of seeking and gaining publication in the CBA marketplace, the following "Shalt Nots:"

you can't have Catholic characters in a medieval set piece because they're not saved
you can't use a foreign setting (my setting in fact was central Iowa)
no divorced characters (?)
you can't have a science fiction writing pastor as a main character (my novel with the highest sales of any)
you need to "get her saved" by the end of the book or it's not C-fic
Christians don't read time-travel stories (my Grace Award winner)

...and a couple others I've probably forgotten.

It was the thing about "you've set your writing voice free" that finally clinched the sale on my exit from the C-fic realm. I will still write SEASONS OF HOPE, my third time-travel piece that's under contract, as a C-fic book, but that's more for consistency with the other two titles than because I really want to go there.

I hope I don't get slammed now for honesty.

Long ago I decided the only way I could contribute to doing that was to kick the sides out of that box and write the best novels I possibly could. It's still a work-in-progress.

Slam! Slam! Bad Deb! Slam!
... nah. I don't think so. All you're doing is being honest and stating your opinion. Politely, even.

I'm stuck on the 'no Catholics in a medieval setting' part, though. Were you supposed to write about Cathars and Albigensians?

Who knows? This agent probably wouldn't have liked me to write about Albigensians and Cathars because they were considered heretics. And the "not saved" bit was so out there I didn't even dignify it with a response.

I did the eye roll and the shoulder shrug and sold that project and the other five myself. The time-travel book about which we had this discussion went on to win the Grace Award in spec-fic that year. So much for "no Catholics," since all the medieval characters were of necessity adherents to the Holy Faith and I did not equivocate one iota to make it "acceptable." I wasn't interested in its acceptability to a bunch of hidebound people who'd be shocked that I'd write about pre-Reformation people. In fact, my crit partner is a dedicated Catholic and one of the things she liked about it was that I showed people along the entire spectrum. Both laypeople and religious. I tossed in a kindly, good priest and one who was a bit of a narrow-minded schmuck. Read Chaucer and see where English religious were all exactly alike. Bosh.

Like John, I feel privileged not to write in that stiff ole cardboard box anymore.

I'm a Christian, but also a writer. I've struggled back and forth with the idea of writing "Christian" themed stuff or not. I even did a blog post called "You Can't Make Art With A Checklist" in which I addressed modern religious or "inspirational" fiction. While I'm not going as far as to use curse words or explicit depictions of certain things, I don't think any subject should be off the table. This world is rotten sometimes and we have to live in it. How does a person of faith deal with civil war? Drug addiction? Rape? Poverty? How can your story have power if you're not allowed to show what these things look like, or forced to pretend they don't exist?

The only story I've been kicking around at this point is one where a Christian goes out into the world and meets gay people for the first time, realizing that the world they grew up in has changed forever. That presents the opportunity for conflict on a number of fronts, but I'm probably not the guy to write that story. And besides, I thrive on letting my imagination fly high with dragons and spaceships and such.

As an aside, I think a great tale would be about a Christian who has to reconcile the existence of aliens. Arthur C. Clarke alluded to this being a problem in "Childhood's End," where some people gave up the belief in God entirely, but it wasn't much of a plot point. Maybe someone else already did this...I'd be very surprised if not.

-EDIT-
Found this wonderful article on the subject: https://malcolmnicholson.wordpress.com/science-fiction-on-alien-contact-and-religion/

Guess someone beat me to the punch...

Deb Kinnard said:

I hope I don't get slammed now for honesty.

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I certainly hope not, because it's all very helpful! Thank you for sharing this.

Taylor Harbin said:

I'm a Christian, but also a writer. I've struggled back and forth with the idea of writing "Christian" themed stuff or not. I even did a blog post called "You Can't Make Art With A Checklist" in which I addressed modern religious or "inspirational" fiction. While I'm not going as far as to use curse words or explicit depictions of certain things, I don't think any subject should be off the table. This world is rotten sometimes and we have to live in it. How does a person of faith deal with civil war? Drug addiction? Rape? Poverty? How can your story have power if you're not allowed to show what these things look like, or forced to pretend they don't exist?

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I think that's what frustrates me to no end -- these things exist. Christians have to deal with them. But so much of the C-fic seems to want to keep to a nice, comfortable bubble, where we're Saved so Nothing Really Bad Happens. I shouldn't sound snarky about it, there's absolutely a place for that sort of fiction, too. But that shouldn't mean "real" C-fic doesn't have a place. There's room (and hunger!) for both. Just like in the secular romance genre, there's plenty of room for everyone, from squeaky-clean sweet romance all the way up to erotic romance, and hitting every possible point in between.

pschmehl said:

It's surprising that The Shack hasn't shattered that illusion. 20 million copies sold is proof that stories that involve tragedy, heartbreak, and questioning God will draw readers in droves, if it's done right.

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I haven't read that book yet, but I've heard some things. On one hand, the subject matter is very heavy and I did find myself thinking "Wow, what a great conflict!" It hits home with me because I was friends with a girl who survived the Heath High School shooting. I'll bet her family wrestled with that a lot. However, there seems to be a number of readers who think the book failed to deliver.

Have you read it? What are your thoughts?

"My books will be about real people. People who hurt, have self-doubt, wonder if God is real, get angry at God when life takes a bad turn, etc., etc., etc. IOW, real people."

I agree. And I am trying to write books that are. I wrote two picture books for the mainstream market but really wanted to try my hand at novels. My first inspirational, historical romance was published as an ebook in May. I can empathize with people's frustrations because finding a balance is hard. If people thought someone else was too edgy, my reviews, while mostly positive, (so far!) some of the comments have been that it was too YA even for adult readers of Christian Fiction. My book has a teen MC and it is indeed YA, but I was also thinking of adult women who want to read clean romances. And there is much more besides the romance because there is mystery, betrayal and lots of conflict. We'll see if some of us will be able to find the right mix and the right balance. I am feeling the uncertainly as I plot my next novels, because of wondering if I will be 'too edgy'. I figure I'll write what I write and see where it goes and who, if anyone, it may resonate with. That's all any of us can do.

I agree with Paul. As nicely said somewhere up above, there's a continuum of readers. Some want squeaky sweet (conflict free?) fic and some want their stories to deal with issues that are a bit more true-to-life. If true-to-life is your happy place, write from it and the readers will find you.

One of the consistent, and very welcome, comments I've received about my own work is "Christian but not preachy." You can imagine how that sort of feedback blesses me. It also proves I do have a readership, though sometimes all eighteen of my fans can be hard to find.

Eighteen? You have me beat by one. Yet another reason I've given up writing altogether.

Carrie in PA said:

I think that's what frustrates me to no end -- these things exist. Christians have to deal with them. But so much of the C-fic seems to want to keep to a nice, comfortable bubble, where we're Saved so Nothing Really Bad Happens. I shouldn't sound snarky about it, there's absolutely a place for that sort of fiction, too. But that shouldn't mean "real" C-fic doesn't have a place. There's room (and hunger!) for both. Just like in the secular romance genre, there's plenty of room for everyone, from squeaky-clean sweet romance all the way up to erotic romance, and hitting every possible point in between.

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THIS. Have these people even read the Bible? Lots of crap happened to believers.

Lemme see: from Job losing his family to Joseph getting sold into slavery (and possibly raped),

to David not fitting in with his brothers, to Saul getting into witchcraft and wanting David dead, to poor Jonathan torn between David and Saul, David screwing Bathsheba and getting her husband killed,

Moses and his wife got divorced,

Jermiah getting chucked in a ditch,

Elijah fleeing into the desert when Jezebel wants his blood (again),

to Jesus himself being told he'd lost his head or he's up himself, rejected in Nazareth (hardly an edifying town back in the day full of foreigners and Romans), and just look into the mess that was his birth:

His mother pregnant before she was married, born in a barn, refugees in Egypt, being misunderstood by his naturally worried parents when he stayed in the temple, probably got called bastard because rumours would have spread he was illegitimate, the things that would have been said about his mother, and can you imagine what early manhood was like with the pressure to get married and stuff.