Offer of representation by small publisher - how to proceed?

Just some preliminary questions, before the experts show up:

- What are your long-term career goals?
- What are the Amazon sales ranks of this publisher's books?
- What's the time limit on the publisher's offer?

Have you checked out the publisher in the Bewares etc forum?

At the end of the day you either go for the small publisher in hand, or you take a gamble on getting an agent and then being picked up by a larger publisher. This is exactly why you usually try for an agent and then work your way down from big publishers to smaller - so you can get the best deal you possibly can.

I'm sure you have heard some bad stories of UK people about their experiences with big publishing houses, but as a counterpoint I have heard many good stories from Big 5 published authors.

My best advice would be to find out how long they will wait for an answer. Hopefully you'll have an answer from those agents by then and can proceed from there.

You've got two threads open so I'm picking this one since it was opened first.

But I've heard some bad stories of UK people about their experiences with big publishing houses.

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This is a really bad reason not to consider the big publishers, bud, and it troubles me that it seems to be a key thing swaying you towards the small press. There are horror stories about small presses. There are horror stories about self pub. There are horror stories about everything.

Don't make a decision based on the worst-case scenario. That's you anxiety-brain talking, I reckon, because that's how my anxiety-brain likes to speak.

Some questions for you:

1. Your book is good enough that a very reputable small publisher wants it, and agents are considering the full. Chances are higher than normal, given your success so far, that you will be offered representation if you persevere. Would you prefer this?

2. When discussing the small press, you talk about cover art and review numbers. The bigger publishers can do this too, and they have more power to give advances and do large print runs. Does this sway you?

3. You sound really taken by the cover jacket designer and the potential six month turnaround. How much does this matter to you? How much do you want this? There is no wrong answer here -- if you gut feeling is you want that quick turnaround, you want THAT designer, then the choice should be clear.

4. Does this publisher work with any agented writers? Could you potentially get an agent now and approach the publisher with them by your side?
I'd also really encourage you to read any contracts fully and consider the rights you are signing away. Does this publisher have a good track record for foreign rights? Audiobook rights? Print editions? Ebook distribution? Do they want any rights of first refusal?

I'd encourage you to always use the Society of Authors contract vetting service, if you do choose to go forward without an agent. No matter how reputable a publisher is, the boilerplate contract is not written with your best interests in mind. It's written for the publisher.

Why are you submitting to small publishers when you have fulls out with agents? It's not a good route to go. I'd wait to hear back from the agents first. There's a lot of big and mid-size publishers that you can submit to before trying small publishers too (if the agent route doesn't work out.) It doesn't sound like you're giving your novel much of a chance here.

Also, do you know what things need to be done to help make your book successful? Is the publisher going to do those things? (Send out review copies well in advance of release? < ---- usually at least 8 weeks, but sometimes 12. Solicit author blurbs? Follow-up when you want to schedule a bookstore appearance < ---- includes being able to provide a certain number of copies to be sold at the event?)

There are a lot of things that smaller publishers tend to pass by because they take more effort or they are not as immediately profitable. Things may not make your career, but will certainly help.

Quick turnaround means there is a lot of scrambling on promotion. Especially if they are passing most of that burden to you. Consider that you will, in all likelihood, be doing developmental/content edits, approving copy edits, setting up interviews/blog posts, organizing reviews and giveaways and other personal promotion (i.e. Twitter and FB posts, cover reveal, etc.), writing guest blog posts, all in that six month period in addition to whatever else you are doing.

Which isn't to say it can't be done or that the longer wait at a big publishing house means all those things will be easy or there won't be crunch times, but more time is more time to schedule and plan and call in favors and build your early readership. There are advantages there. But, if you want the book out, and don't care so much about the rest, then small press may work better for you.

Best of luck, whatever you decide.

Turniphead2 said:

@Lizmonster - how do I find '- What are the Amazon sales ranks of this publisher's books?' this out?

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Under "Product Details," Amazon will show a book's sales rank in three specific subcategories. It's not always a useful piece of information - subcategories can get ridiculously specific - but sometimes it can give you a rough sense of where the book is falling.

Turniphead2 said:

This is what I'm drawn to. The turnaround times for a big press is dreadful. I think the foreign rights thing is important.

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There are reasons for this, though. In addition to editing, cover design, interior/layout design, etc., large publishers do a lot of pre-release promotion, getting the book into bookseller catalogs, getting ARCs to the right reviewers, etc. Whether or not that's worth it depends on a lot of factors, but they're not just sitting around letting your book gather dust.

Turniphead2 said:

Hi all

I've had an offer from a small publisher - they look pretty legit.

I also have a couple of fulls out with agents.

The small publisher is very enthusiastic about my book. The guy who runs the publishing company is really nice and he has a small team with a very talented book jacket designer. I'd love to get my book out there in 6 months as opposed to 2 years with a major publisher. But also, I don't want to jump at the first opportunity.

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This swiftness might look like a good thing to you but it really isn't. Trade publishers take the time they do for very good reason. If your book is published in six months, you won't get any significant reviews, or be involved in any significant promotions or events.

I'll contact the agents that have fulls.

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You shouldn't be sending out to agents and publishers at the same time. If you want an agent aim for that and only start subbing to publishers after you've finished subbing to agents.

But I've heard some bad stories of UK people about their experiences with big publishing houses.

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Me too. And I've heard some very bad stories of people who were published by smaller presses. There are always bad stories to listen to. But if you are professional and do all you can to learn about the business, you'll minimise the chances of those bad things happening to you.

So I'm very tempted to go with the Indie guys who have offered me the chance to get my novel out there. I've done extensive Googling re these guys and they are v legit. One of their authors gets 25+ reviews on Amazon.

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The number of reviews a book has is no indication of the legitimacy of its publisher.

If you like you could tell me via PM who this small publisher is, and I will let you know if I have heard of any reasons to avoid them. All in confidence, of course.

But, and it's a big but, I could lose out on getting a major agent.

So although I'm really happy about the offer as I like the small pubs website and reputation there's a little voice saying: take your time, and try and land a big agent.

I know a lot of people would love to be in this position, but I have major anxiety issues, and tbh I'm a bit stressed as I don't want to make a mistake with my novel that I've put so much time into.

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You're already making a mistake by submitting to both agents and publishers. Stop that! Stop it now!

I think you should step back from submitting and spend a bit more time learning about publishing. It will help soothe your anxiety and it will improve your chances of doing well.

Turniphead2 said:

Also, do you know what things need to be done to help make your book successful? Is the publisher going to do those things? (Send out review copies well in advance of release? < ---- usually at least 8 weeks, but sometimes 12. Solicit author blurbs? Follow-up when you want to schedule a bookstore appearance < ---- includes being able to provide a certain number of copies to be sold at the event?)

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Sending out review copies 8-12 weeks prior to publication isn't really good enough. Don't be impressed by this.

I'm going to hire the UK's no1 book promoter - for the opening period + I'm lucky enough to have a following on Twitter of 22,000 - and this may not lead to book sales but it will help

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It will cost you tens of thousands of pounds to hire the best one. (I know, I have friends who have worked with them.) If your book is published through a small press then you will be wasting your money as they won't have the clout to make it worthwhile, and they probably won't have the distribution in place to take advantage of any events your publicists set up. Please be careful.

AggyB - your feedback was very helpful. But I do need to learn inside out what I need to be doing in the first 4-6 months. I'd want that information whatever publisher I was going to go with. Book or blog suggestions outlining whats important in the first 2 weeks-6 months would be very valuable. I guess I might have to do my own research regarding this, but if anyone has some book/ blogs that puts all this down it would be great.

Thanks again for all feedback - most welcomed!!


Turnip

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You need to start work several months prior to publication. Honestly, just this question makes me worry that you're too ill-informed to realise all the mistakes you're making. I'm sorry to be so blunt but please, slow down. Learn more. Think more.

Turnip: So, my context is that I have an agent but I sold a trilogy of novellas to a small press who have done some good things, but also tend to follow the self -pub model of trying to put out content quickly and frequently. Which has been a challenge for me when it comes to promotion.

One thing I've been doing though is considering which (recently published) books I've heard of and how I heard of them. Then making lists of things those authors are doing. Small pubs tend to focus on "blog hop" or blitz events where a bunch of different blogs publish the same general content. This is only somewhat effective because there is no carry through because the content has no value outside of advertising your book. Authors who seem to be more successful do actual interviews and write blog columns for sites that actually have a following. There's balancing sales tweets with unique content (even if it's not directly related to the book)

Reviews are a big deal. Book bloggers are not a bad option but frequently have full schedules. One fellow I follow had a book come out almost a year ago and is still getting reviews from blogs he submitted to before release.

Figuring out how you find books will help you make choices about which publisher would work better for you, and also give you insight into what sort of work you will need to do.

(I agree with OldHack though. Make sure your publisher is reputable and fits your needs. If they don't, continue the search for an agent. I went through 180+ queries before I found mine.)

Even "going the small publisher route" does not mean going with this small publisher.

What were those Amazon ranks like?

Enthusiasm and a cover that suits your personal taste is not what sells books.

Passion is absolutely not what sells books.

Assuming your book is a manuscript with good commercial potential, people who know how to sell books sell books.

First question: can they get your books ordered by mainstream brick and mortar stores by offering a deep discount and unlimited returns. if not, you will sell fewer books.

Second question: do they have a history of getting books in your genre on bestseller lists? if not, you are unlikely to be the exception.

Turniphead2 said:

@Old Hack:

All I know is - a book is just a product - if it's a great product it will sell itself if there is solid promotion behind it - if it's really brilliant, It'll get out there and sell - with a load of PR maybe £20000 worth and huge pushing online and off before during and after launch it'll do well. I am responsible for this + editing + obsessively pushing via on and offline channels. I do really believe that an amazing product will sell. It's just time and money. The publisher whether small or large will prob do very little in terms of PR marketing: I have a friend who's well published and she had a HUGe publisher that put posters of her work on the Underground 3 months before her book launch - she got an apology for the mistake.

The real thing that sells a book is passion.

And I have tons of it as does the small pub.

@Aggyb - thanks for your insights.


TY

Turnip

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You don't seem to understand, at all, what promoting a book entails.

What do you mean you're responsible for editing?? With a professional publisher, small or not, that should not be the case, there should be an assigned editor and a copyeditor, proofreader...

Books are not best promoted to readers; they're best promoted to the outlets that promote books to readers. That's where you're going wrong in your thinking here. A PR person isn't near as helpful as someone pushing the correct single channel on the back end.

If what really sold books was passion, Amazon and NYT rankings would be absolutely filled with self-published books. Lots of people are direly passionate about their books -- that's why they spent time writing them -- that doesn't translate to sales, especially in this marketplace.

Turniphead2 said:

The real thing that sells a book is passion.

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No it isn't.

You seem to have made up your mind, but for others who may read this thread: there are many fine small pubs out there, but to suggest that word-of-mouth alone is enough to get you tremendous sales is flat-out wrong. It's visibility that will get you sales (that, and serendipity, and luck).

And IMHO, if your publisher, small or large, is giving you nothing but editing and book binding, without doing any pre- or post-release marketing, you're better off putting the book out yourself.

In reference to the thread title, publishers don't represent books or authors; they publish them. My first impression would be that you need to do a little more research to make sure you know the standard operating procedures for getting published.

Turniphead2 said:

Hi all

I've had an offer from a small publisher - they look pretty legit. Good. Vetting offers if very good.

I also have a couple of fulls out with agents. While you're on submission to publishers? Not the best strategy. Anyone you query, they can't approach on your behalf, even if they wanted to.

The small publisher is very enthusiastic about my book. Good, but many "enthusiastic" small publishers go under regularly. The guy who runs the publishing company is really nice and he has a small team with a very talented book jacket designer. Nice is also good, but it doesn't make him a good publisher. How small is the team? How many books do they publish? Does the small team have enough members to adequately handle them all? You're going to need an editor who isn't overwhelmed by other titles while they're working on yours. I'd love to get my book out there in 6 months as opposed to 2 years with a major publisher. We all would, but that 1-2 year window helps with getting the book in top shape, and positioning it in the market where it will have the best chance of success. But also, I don't want to jump at the first opportunity. Good. Very smart.

I'll contact the agents that have fulls. Good.

But I've heard some bad stories of UK people about their experiences with big publishing houses. Plenty of people have bad experiences with big houses. More have have experiences with small ones due to the number that pop up and go out of business with regularity. This is why the vetting stage is so important.

So I'm very tempted to go with the Indie guys who have offered me the chance to get my novel out there. Be VERY careful. This is literally one of the most common lure-lines from every scam vanity press out there. I've done extensive Googling re these guys and they are v legit. Based on what criteria? Do you know their authors? Their books? Have you ever read one of their books? One of their authors gets 25+ reviews on Amazon. That's not really a criteria, and it's not really a high review threshold, either. Even with its own books, Amazon expects you to meet a minimum 50-review threshold before they'll include you in their promotions. (regardless of publisher)
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I just don't want to rush into anything, but equally I don't to lose the chance to be published by a small but very impressive small press. Understandable, but if you're seriously considering the small press, then check them out more places than just their own website and Amazon. Google their name like this: "awesome publisher SCAM" to see if anything comes up. See if their authors make mention of them on their blogs, if they have blogs. DEFINITELY check them out here.

They may be perfectly legit, and hopefully they are, but do yourself the favor of double-checking.

Make sure they've got a big enough "small staff" to hit all the points. Make sure you know what to expect. Are they an epublisher only, or do they put out physical books? If physical books, do they do print runs or POD? If print runs, then where do they distribute their books? Find out in advance before you sign something only to find out the contract isn't what you're hoping for.

Any advice most welcomed.

And thanks for the feedback I've received on my other threads.

TYVM

Turniphead

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All I know is - a book is just a product - if it's a great product it will sell itself

Oh boy.... take a seat and pay attention.

NO IT WON'T

Point of fact, NO product sells itself, as it's a product not a sales pitch. This is pyre on which thousands of dreams have thrown themselves.

if there is solid promotion behind it - if it's really brilliant, It'll get out there and sell - with a load of PR maybe £20000 worth and huge pushing online and off before during and after launch it'll do well.

Not even close.

You don't get solid promotion and huge pushes online for that amount of money, and small presses don't have that amount of money to allocate in most cases. Beautiful, brilliant, gorgeously written books sink in the quagmire EVERY DAY because the marketing and promotion isn't there. The distribution isn't there.

I am responsible for this + editing + obsessively pushing via on and offline channels.
No. No you're not. At least you shouldn't be.

You are responsible for editing to the point that the book is in shape to submit, then THE PUBLISHER is responsible for editing to the point it's ready to sell. It's a completely different skill set, one that the publisher is supposed to pay a professional for.

The same goes for marketing. That's an entire *department* not just the author.

I do really believe that an amazing product will sell.

Do does everyone who has a *brilliant* idea. This is why we have Shark Tank in its 8th season.

It's just time and money.

And visibility, and marketing, and distribution...

The publisher whether small or large will prob do very little in terms of PR marketing: I have a friend who's well published and she had a HUGe publisher that put posters of her work on the Underground 3 months before her book launch - she got an apology for the mistake. What you're missing here is that, mistake aside, THEY PRINTED POSTERS AND PUT IN THE MONEY TO GET PERMISSION TO HANG THEM IN PUBLIC VIEW.

And that's only the part you saw. You didn't see the behind the scenes stuff that qualifies huge monetary outputs like that. You didn't see people on the phone with distributors and book sellers. You didn't see the people who made the book cover hear from the buyer at Waterstones that it's not really working, so the publisher decides to change the cover. You didn't see the ARCs go out or the mailings go out, or the catalogs from the publisher or the push into libraries. None of that is visible; all of it is the publisher's job.

The real thing that sells a book is passion.
No. The real thing that sells a book is people knowing it exists and then finding someone to buy it.

Christopher Paolini (Eragon) had the passion to dress up in costume and drag his books from store-to-store and perform. NO ONE cared. NO ONE bought them. He was packing it in when - by fluke - a child thought his costume was interesting, and picked up the book, then demanded his father publish it. Dad worked for a major publisher, which then DID ALL THE LEG WORK REQUIRED to make the book a success.

Harry Potter didn't take costumes to sell, but it ALSO took the fluke of a publisher's child finding it and telling their parent to publish it.

That's not passion. It's process.
And I have tons of it as does the small pub.

Go read the "testimonial" section of Publish America. They all have tons of it.

@Aggyb - thanks for your insights.

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OP, there are people here who really, really know what they're talking about.

I implore you to listen to them.

Turnip: To view a books ranking, go to the Amazon page and scroll down past the description and also bought section. You will see three different sublists. (Like: Fiction>Science Fiction>Space Opera) with a number on the beginning. Clicking the link will show you the list itself. The more sub categories, the easier to reach higher numbers on the list. Look at who else is around those books - self-pub or big publisher? Also note that with some lists it only takes a single sale on a given day to bump you into the top ten so check the overall listing as well.

Turniphead2 said:

I'm unsure whether a small publisher needs to have books on bestseller lists in order for them to successfully promote and sell my book - but I could be wrong.

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Well, it certainly doesn't hurt.

Turniphead2 said:

I don't know how to view Amazon ranks: it would be great if you could let me know.



I will investigate : Don't be naive. Research this publisher. Research the publishing business. If you don't understand terms like "net royalty," "reversion clause," "subsidiary rights" and the like, don't sign any contract until you do.

And I won't sign a contract quickly.

Posting here has been very helpful and I'll learn a great deal about contracts before I sign anything.

I'm unsure whether a small publisher needs to have books on bestseller lists in order for them to successfully promote and sell my book - but I could be wrong.

TY

Turnip

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No, they do not need to have books on bestseller lists to be able to successfully promote, market, etc.

You need to know what all that means and entails before you can begin to decide anything. You do not. Stop. Same as when you were calling agents. STOP.