Wonder Woman

Alessandra Kelley

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I've been going back and forth on whether I want to see this in theaters and everything Zoombie just said was pretty much why I was afraid I wouldn't like it, especially Wonder Woman being clueless and the Germans being faceless pure villains, both of which I was seeing in the trailers. Of course, trailers can be very misleading (the trailers for Curse of the Black Pearl made it look like a stupid kid-oriented movie, and it ended up being my favorite movie of all time), so I've been hesitant to make my choice just based on them. I've also been worried that way too much time might be spent on her struggling against sexism, as this is something that has often bothered me in other historical/fantasy movies and books. I know it's realistic, but frankly I watch movies and read to ESCAPE that aspect of reality.

Anyway, I'm still on the fence about seeing Wonder Woman in theaters, since it's certainly the kind of movie I would regret not having seen on the big screen if I see it later and really like it. So could Zoombie or someone else who has seen the movie possibly post or PM me some of the spoiler details that are being left out of the thread? I don't enjoy movies any less for knowing what will happen, and knowing the details would probably let me make up my mind.

She does not spend her time struggling against sexism. At all.

That's not to say it isn't there, of course. She deals with it very well.
 

amergina

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I don't think she was clueless. I think she was gobsmacked by how foolish and selfish so many men in "the real world" were.

Which I totally, totally get. Right with you there, Diana.
 

Marlys

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Saw it today, and loved it. I also didn't find Diana clueless, and thought Gal Gadot was terrific.

My husband and son didn't like it as much as I did, so I'll probably go alone when I see it again. Wish there were women's screenings in my town.
 

kevinwaynewilliams

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This was the first Wonder Woman property of any kind that didn't make me smile for all the wrong reasons. Kept me entertained, and I don't feel like I wasted my nine bucks. I won't climb on the "best superhero movie of all time" bandwagon, though. That third act was horrendous, the naivete was irksome, and the reactions to her by those she met were underplayed. I will echo the general sentiment that many here have expressed: there's no reason at all to think this movie had to be perfect in order to demonstrate a market for female superhero movies. After all, there were only two good Batman movies (Batman:The Movie and The Lego Batman Movie) and I suspect that there will be four or five more of those made before I die.
 

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I'm with all the others, I really feel that she isn't clueless at all. Is she a bit naive, yes, but she isn't stupid. She just lacks certain social graces that quite frankly ARE rather illogical when you think about it. And while she might be clueless about "modern" times, she has more information when it comes to Ares and combat and generally helping people. So it's quite an equal balance of strengths. She also isn't cynical, which in general is shocking to people these days but can be extra so in war times. Not cynical isn't clueless, however, though I see why some people do think they can be one and the same. Also there is refreshing little after school special struggling against sexism. Yes in the "real" world the guys are shocked by her, but they get over quick and just think she's awesome. One of the most empowering things I found in the film was how while there still were the mores of the time, people generally seemed ready to accept her. Heck I was shocked how little people cared that one of the main baddies was female.

Now. I will give you this: the bad guys are the weakest part of the film. But to my mind this really isn't about the bad guys. It's more about her, her growth as a character, and about hope in the world. What is also odd to me is while, okay the germans could have had a much more complex presence in the film, they weren't all evil. There's a whole thing about a peace treaty and the german officials are working on it as much as the English are. The bad guys are yes German (and honestly could have been better wrought, I'm still waiting for another really good comic book baddie, feels like it's been ages - I can only think of Ledger's Joker and Loki who have been really great) But they so aren't the point. It's about good people doing the right thing, about people banding together, about life not being black and white. And some very fine comedy as well. And of course some serious butt kicking.

From everything you've said I think you'll actually be pleasantly surprised. You'll enjoy acts 1 and 2, and be a bit let down in the third. But some of the visuals . . . you really ought to see them on the big screen.
 
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Zoombie

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See, I'm starting to question my own brains, so don't no one use my own concerns as an excuse to not see this movie.

But, like, I thought Wonder Woman in the film wasn't clever or intelligent or badass enough to fit my mental image of Wonder Woman. And I'm wondering if I'm...I don't know...remembering badly?
 

Alessandra Kelley

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See, I'm starting to question my own brains, so don't no one use my own concerns as an excuse to not see this movie.

But, like, I thought Wonder Woman in the film wasn't clever or intelligent or badass enough to fit my mental image of Wonder Woman. And I'm wondering if I'm...I don't know...remembering badly?

You don't have to like it. It doesn't have to work for you. It's okay.
 

Zoombie

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But literally everyone, else - people who all agree with my opinions most of the time, from critics to friends, all like it!

This is bothering me more as a consistancy thing than anything else.

...it might just be like The Arrival all over again.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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But literally everyone, else - people who all agree with my opinions most of the time, from critics to friends, all like it!

This is bothering me more as a consistancy thing than anything else.

...it might just be like The Arrival all over again.

It might just be one of those quirks of personal taste. It does not mean you are in error.
 

Cyia

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But literally everyone, else - people who all agree with my opinions most of the time, from critics to friends, all like it!

This is bothering me more as a consistancy thing than anything else.

...it might just be like The Arrival all over again.

Do you and your friends have the same foundational history with the character? Maybe they've read different story arcs from you, or don't have an extensive background to compare the film to.
 

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Oh Zoombie please don't feel obligated to like it and stuff. Everyone has their own personal connections to things, things that speak to us and don't. As I said back in previous posts, I've just given up on plots these days, I just don't personally care anymore. What I want is character development and charm. Charm to me is HUGE. I feel so many things lack that these days. So for me this film was more about that when for others it's about the kickbutt stuff, or the thematic stuff etc. We all have our personal focus.

As far WW's qualities, I don't have a relationship with the comics so I can't compare, that makes it easier for me. Further since this was her first foray into the real world it made sense she was still figuring things out. Compare her to BvS where she is slick and quick and all knowing and outwits Bruce, it's clear that over the last hundred years she's grown and become more grounded. I also have a MASSIVE soft spot with the whole fish out of water - it's what I loved best about Thor too - so I have a huge bias that way.

Mostly though, watching the women fight at the beginning, and then watching her in No Man's Land and then in the village after . . . that was a level of badassery that I think is hard to match. But I understand if people are far more used to her being bad ass more consistently it could feel like not enough.

Anyway . . . ugh . . . sorry I do go on . . . my point is taste is taste. Every piece of art speaks to us differently which is why it's awesome. If you ever feel so inclined maybe see it again now having experienced it and knowing what to expect, I find that helps me a lot sometimes especially with material I know well. The first screening actually kind of sucks because I'm watching to see what they will include and what they won't etc. I sit there all nervous almost. But don't feel pressure to do so if you don't want to. There are so many other wonderful movies out there to experience. :)
 
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katiemac

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I couldn't tell you the last time I actually cared about a movie character, especially a comic book one. Rarely is there character development. But Diana and Steve cared about each other, and I found myself caring about them. I do not do romantic comedies and I roll my eyes when romantic interests are shoe-horned into movies unnecessarily, but damn it if I am not all in for these two. Charm was off the charts and the little details between them made this movie for me.

I think a big sell here too is that it wasn't an origin story, not really. She comes Wonder Woman fully-formed, so she's new to the world but not herself.
 

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The consensus opinion from me and my 16 year old son - it was pretty good. Not perfect but a damn sight better than other DC superhero movies.

The positives? A mostly coherent plot, fairly believable characters (although Chris Pine does accept the mythological aspects a little too quickly), some stunning action scenes, good music. All in all, intelligent and enjoyable. It sets the franchise up for sequels.

The negatives? Not many. The plot borrows heavily from the first Captain America movie. The final boss fight does drag a little. As Diana is basically a god we don't know what her limits are or how she can be killed. There are some clicheed moments, such as the "innocent in a big city" scene which borrows heavily from Tarzan, Crocodile Dundee and many others.

But it works. We don't expect perfect cinema from a superhero movie. Recommended.
 

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My only problem with the film was something that almost all comic book films do for the most part: the third act CG Monster Battle with the Big Bad. Outside of Nolan, only the Captain America films have avoided this.
 

angeliz2k

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My only problem with the film was something that almost all comic book films do for the most part: the third act CG Monster Battle with the Big Bad. Outside of Nolan, only the Captain America films have avoided this.

That was my biggest issue, too. If it were a different kind of movie, I think they could have nixed Ares entirely, and the devastating conclusion is that there was no Ares, that it was all just mankind being terrible to one another. I mean, that's *somewhat* close to what it is now, since Ares says that he really didn't do more than whisper in the ear of mankind. Which made me think, why not just nix him? I know, I know, the rest of the film is full of Amazons and gods and stuff, but still . . .
 

Zoombie

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I was going to say that I really hope that the family of Erich Ludendorff didn't mind seeing his, uh, portrayal in this movie...but then I remembered that Ludendorff, like most of the generals during WWI, was basically a mass murderer by neglicance, so I stopped caring!
 

Chasing the Horizon

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As I said back in previous posts, I've just given up on plots these days, I just don't personally care anymore. What I want is character development and charm. Charm to me is HUGE. I feel so many things lack that these days. So for me this film was more about that when for others it's about the kickbutt stuff, or the thematic stuff etc. We all have our personal focus.
Charm, characters, and action sequences are everything to me too. And humor. Humor within non-comedy movies is huge to me, and maybe the only thing all my top ten favorite movies have in common. Plot, meh, I don’t even pay that much attention to it in books, much less movies (no wonder I have issues with my own plots, really).

Thanks to everyone for taking time to explain more about the tone of the movie and assure me it wasn’t going to drive me nuts with too much time spent on sexism. I don’t have any previous knowledge of Wonder Woman (unless you count having a poster of her my dad gave me when I was little because I thought she looked cool), so at least I won’t have those expectations bothering me. I will go see the movie next week. The worst that can happen is Zoombie ends up feeling less alone, lol.
 

angeliz2k

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I was going to say that I really hope that the family of Erich Ludendorff didn't mind seeing his, uh, portrayal in this movie...but then I remembered that Ludendorff, like most of the generals during WWI, was basically a mass murderer by neglicance, so I stopped caring!

Well, there's a difference between being a bad general and being basically a genocidal maniac. When they said the name Ludendorff, I was like, "Wait, that was a real person . . ." BTW, that real person died in the '30's, not during the war (and he wasn't killed by Wonder Woman!). I'm a little puzzled as to why they used a real person's name when it doesn't fit at all with the real person it and might be viewed, uh, not so favorably by any surviving family (if there is any).
 

Aggy B.

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Well, there's a difference between being a bad general and being basically a genocidal maniac. When they said the name Ludendorff, I was like, "Wait, that was a real person . . ." BTW, that real person died in the '30's, not during the war (and he wasn't killed by Wonder Woman!). I'm a little puzzled as to why they used a real person's name when it doesn't fit at all with the real person it and might be viewed, uh, not so favorably by any surviving family (if there is any).

He appears to be someone who did go on to be a Nazi (in the proper sense) after the war, so perhaps they felt he was a natural choice for a Nazi-like villain and would help tie the story to history as an alternate version. He also appears to have been anti-peace and pro-war industry. So... it's not a huge stretch to have named this character after him.
 

angeliz2k

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He appears to be someone who did go on to be a Nazi (in the proper sense) after the war, so perhaps they felt he was a natural choice for a Nazi-like villain and would help tie the story to history as an alternate version. He also appears to have been anti-peace and pro-war industry. So... it's not a huge stretch to have named this character after him.

Fair enough. But he *did* go on, meaning he *did* survive past 1918. They could have given the character any name in the world . . . An odd choice, I thought, to name him after a real person who doesn't fit with the fictional character basically at all (except for his being a general and an evil ass-butt).
 

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Fair enough. But he *did* go on, meaning he *did* survive past 1918. They could have given the character any name in the world . . . An odd choice, I thought, to name him after a real person who doesn't fit with the fictional character basically at all (except for his being a general and an evil ass-butt).

Yeah. But I'm pretty sure Captain America never actually punched Hitler either. ;)

DC and Marvel both went through previous plots that were "alternate" history so they used real people, but obviously not-real history. Which is what it felt like here, for me. If Diana were a real person she *might* have killed Ludendorff. (Of course, a friend also pointed out that WW would also have likely killed Truman for dropping the bombs on Japan too. But, of course, that wouldn't happen for another 20+ years.) But it's fictional so real history figures die fictional deaths. ;)