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Thread: Wonder Woman

  1. #1
    THE EXPLORERS is out now!! Toothpaste's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman

    SO GOOD!!! I mean not without it's flaws but I can't think of a single superhero movie that's been perfect. It was so so good guys! I loved how charming it was. Diana was so sincere and so sweet and it's so lovely to have a non-cynical superhero (felt much the same way about Captain America). She also seriously kicks butt. The first scene where we see all the Amazons training together I actually started to tear up, it was so awesome to see all these powerful women looking so fierce and cool and ACK! I loved it.

    The acting was altogether lovely, adored Gal, Chris and Lucy especially. Acts 1 and 2 were very strong, the third went into over the top CGI-ness, but honestly even then I appreciated it was at least grounded with humanity. Not total "I'm just watching a screen saver".

    Also something that I noted on Facebook about Steve and Diana's relationship:

    Watching how Steve admires and respects Diana, isn't threatened at all by her, but happy to work alongside her and many times happy for her to take the lead just shows me even more how silly a concept the notion of "emasculation" truly is. Because there is nothing weak or small about Steve. He comes across all the MORE strong for his support of her, for knowing there are times when she needs to take over. He comes across all the more confident and, quite honestly, attractive for it.

    Now I understand that the concept of emasculation is one that is part of the whole toxic masculinity thing and so is a societal construct that many men have had to deal with even if they would rather not so I don't blame them for facing that struggle, but I do think this film shows why men (and even some women too) need to fight the notion hard. The more a man has no fear that somehow his masculinity is threatened by a woman, the more relaxed and I think at ease in his own life he can be. Further such ease is also really sexy to women, so it's truly a win win. I think.


    Anyway yeah. Anyone else see it yet???


  2. #2
    Dragon of the Multiverse AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
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    I'm apparently the only person in the universe who didn't like it.
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  3. #3
    Resist. Love. Go outside. Marlys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    I'm apparently the only person in the universe who didn't like it.
    Could you give a spoiler-free reason why not? Haven't seen it yet.
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  4. #4
    Dragon of the Multiverse AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
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    Most of my reasons are kinda big spoilers, but in general...I felt like Dianna wasn't played like a fish out of water, but rather like a completely clueless person who has to constantly be talked down to by Chris Pine. The main antagonist was weak, the secondary antagonist was weak, and the central theme of the movie is completely undercut by depicting Germans as either faceless goons or cackling psychopaths.

    The plot is full of dropped threads, and the other female characters in the movie are painfully underutilized to the point of being essentially non-existant.
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  5. #5
    THE EXPLORERS is out now!! Toothpaste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    Most of my reasons are kinda big spoilers, but in general...I felt like Dianna wasn't played like a fish out of water, but rather like a completely clueless person who has to constantly be talked down to by Chris Pine. The main antagonist was weak, the secondary antagonist was weak, and the central theme of the movie is completely undercut by depicting Germans as either faceless goons or cackling psychopaths.

    The plot is full of dropped threads, and the other female characters in the movie are painfully underutilized to the point of being essentially non-existant.

    So hard to have this conversation without spoilers, lol . But I really disagree with the first statement, I thought there were a lot of times where Diana totally got the chance herself to "talk down to" Steve especially considering she basically convinces him to do everything she's asked of him, and it totally felt like fish out of water to me. That's one of the things I loved the best.

    And I do actually agree the villains were the weakest part, but I guess for me the mechanics of plot just didn't matter to me that much. I have found the older I get and the more I realise that all stories have been told I am far more interested in characters and relationships than I am plot. That being said this is so a personal taste thing and coming at it from your perspective that makes a lot of sense to me (though I disagree a bit with the Germans, I thought they had enough scenes especially when it came to the peace talks etc that showed them as human, and there was that entire sequence at the end as well).

    Also agree about how few women there were once we were in the "real" world, but I think that was actually part of the point. We are now in a world governed and all decisions made by men. It was one of the few times I've been actually okay with it. I would have liked way more Etta Candy though, I'm a big Lucy Davis fan.

    Small Spoiler (ugh I can't seem to find a font colour that matches the grey this is very annoying):










    (I also really liked the gender reversal of Pine trying to seduce the bad guy whereas usually you have the female sidekick doing that with the male baddy)

  6. #6
    Dragon of the Multiverse AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
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    I guess it just didn't click with me.

    I am overjoyed that the movie's doing well fiscally, because the LAST thing we needed was another bullshit bullet point for sexist idiots to point to as a reason to not make female leading films.
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  7. #7
    practical experience, FTW Jan74's Avatar
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    My sister and I were just saying how her and I will have a girls night and rent this when it comes out on shaw on demand. (we could go to the theater but our theater has very limited wheel chair spots and it's not the most comfortable for her so we'll wait till we can rent)

    Anyways she's a child from 1969 and I'm a 1974, so we have fond memories of being little kids and pretending to be wonder woman, she was our idol! It looks great and I love an over the top special affects kind of movie, like transformers, I loved them all!(Mark W. was my fave though)

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  8. #8
    THE EXPLORERS is out now!! Toothpaste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    I guess it just didn't click with me.

    I am overjoyed that the movie's doing well fiscally, because the LAST thing we needed was another bullshit bullet point for sexist idiots to point to as a reason to not make female leading films.
    And I totally get that. I mean I was stunned how much I did not enjoy the first GUARDIANS film (really enjoyed the second though) and it was similar, it just did not click with me. Tastes are so wondrous and varied .

    And tell me about it. I hate that there's so much pressure on films like these as if they represent all of womankind, and I hope as we make more and more the pressure will be less and less. But it's SO GOOD to see it do so well right now. And a relief.

  9. #9
    Not as sweet as you think Aggy B.'s Avatar
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    We went to see it this afternoon and I loved it. Cried, laughed, so many feels.

    Pine was astounding as Trevor. (I'm used to the guy who gets hit in the head repeatedly so having someone who wasn't completely clueless and helpless was nice. Because heroes/heroines are never made better by simply surrounding them with folks who are weaker/stupider.)

    And it was lovely and sooooo nice to have a heroine who isn't being rescued by a man because she's stupid. (And that's the thing about Diana, even when she's naive, she's not dumb.)

    Will probably have to buy a copy to put next to Mad Max: Fury Road and Star Wars: The Force Awakens.
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  10. #10
    Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred Chris P's Avatar
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    *jumping past the replies to avoid spoilers*

    I've been following the news about how good it is. You've sold me. Gotta see it now.
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  11. #11
    practical experience, FTW PyriteFool's Avatar
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    I just saw it today. I too thoroughly enjoyed it (especially that trench sequence. It's in the trailers. Probably one of the best action sequences in a superhero film to date).

    I will say I found the plot...a bit nonsensical at times. Like there were several head scratching "But why?" moments for me. And while I actually liked the villain, I agree the Germans as a whole got the short end of the stick in portrayal. They did at least use the WWI setting to their advantage. I was concerned that they wouldn't, but they did so it didn't turn out to be an issue for me.

    But overall it was engaging, well acted, and visually lovely (except Act 3 but whatevs they had the emotions for the climax that's what counts). Loved Diana as a character, her arc was wonderful to see, and the supporting cast was fun. And yeah, I kind of got emotional watching Diana kick ass while the theme music was playing. Couldn't help it. I didn't even think I would get misty eyed it just kind of happened.

    Final nitpicks: 1) Oh God please stop with the slow motion! 2) They never actually call her "Wonder Woman" and I found that a tiny bit irksome
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  12. #12
    never mind the shorty angeliz2k's Avatar
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    I just got back from seeing it and really enjoyed it.

    I will agree, there were some plot issues, such as how certain things were done so quickly. And I felt the third act would have been served much better by toning back the villain (spoilerish: if they'd kept him more or less as he first reveals himself, before he goes nuclear). However, I really enjoyed the arc and the theme (that you can't save the world by defeating one Big Bad). I enjoyed Chris Pine and Gal Gadot and felt like they pitched their interactions just right. The relationship came across as mutually respectful.

    As someone who has studied WW1 and written a novel (most of which is) set during the war, I thought they used the setting well. They didn't ignore the fact that Diana would have been very much out of place there and then. They gave that fact some weight, not just a nod or two. I have to say, the portrayal of the Germans was a bit troubling. WW1 was not WW2; these were not Nazis, and yet that's largely how they come across. I did like the fact that the MacGuffin they chase was basically an amped us gas weapon, because WW1 saw the first use of gas in warfare. The overall feel was right, without being too bleak (it is still a super-hero movie, not a gritty war drama).

    Overall, a very well-done movie. Not an all-time favorite, but a solid movie.
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  13. #13
    Rewriting My Destiny Cyia's Avatar
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    Haven't gotten to see it yet, but:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggy B. View Post
    (I'm used to the guy who gets hit in the head repeatedly so having someone who wasn't completely clueless and helpless was nice. Because heroes/heroines are never made better by simply surrounding them with folks who are weaker/stupider.)

    And it was lovely and sooooo nice to have a heroine who isn't being rescued by a man because she's stupid. (And that's the thing about Diana, even when she's naive, she's not dumb.)
    ... I think this is definitely the Furiosa Effect. Now that writers have a precedent to point to, they can say: "See, both characters can be strong and capable without one having to be a dunce. A duo can actually compliment each others' strengths."

    Quote Originally Posted by PyriteFool View Post
    They never actually call her "Wonder Woman" and I found that a tiny bit irksome
    Not even "You are a wonder, woman?" Ugh!

    (Had the same complaint with Battleship. It was a horrendous mess of a thing, but it could have AT LEAST had someone say "You sank my battleship" in a movie WHERE THEY WERE LITERALLY SINKING BATTLESHIPS.)

  14. #14
    Ships full of vampires are hell. AW Moderator amergina's Avatar
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    I rather liked it. I kind of forgot it was a DC movie, to be honest, and kept waiting for Howard or Tony Stark to show up... oops. Wrong Universe.

    I did think that Ares was a damned fool for using lightning on Diana. HELLO. She too is a child of Zeus! Which is kinda really picky, but there you go.
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    Жили-были дед да баба... davidjgalloway's Avatar
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    Yes, it seems to follow most of the reviews--first two Acts lots of fun, last one...not so much. I found it enjoyable, and a relief that no cities were destroyed in the making (ugh).

    I actually think the plot point you reference was not so successful. I LOVED the use of languages other than English, but then found that faltered in that scene, because are we supposed to believe that Steve is a fluent German speaker to convince the Doctor? C'mon--shades of Inglorious Basterds there, demonstrating that Hollywood ideas of fluency are never realistic.

    I also thought it a bit odd that despite the locales, we never got a French or English member of the group. I know that's kind of arbitrary, but the variety of personages almost seemed too multi-national to be realistic.

    I actually found that the biggest issue for me was WWII--what is Diana's role there? If she is shattered by the pain and suffering of WWI, WWII has got to be a punch in the gut. (I have no idea what sort of comic-canon there is for this, btw.)

    So overall, pretty good. Justice League, though--eek. The trailer looked like a lot of smashing and breaking. Not very encouraging.

    But going back to OP's comments on emasculation:

    Now I understand that the concept of emasculation is one that is part of the whole toxic masculinity thing and so is a societal construct that many men have had to deal with even if they would rather not so I don't blame them for facing that struggle, but I do think this film shows why men (and even some women too) need to fight the notion hard. The more a man has no fear that somehow his masculinity is threatened by a woman, the more relaxed and I think at ease in his own life he can be. Further such ease is also really sexy to women, so it's truly a win win. I think.
    This is interesting. I have never approached this as a concept, so I'm curious where you draw from. Especially because in examples I can think of, it's specifically one man emasculating another. Think of 1979's Dracula and the scene where the Count first comes to dinner: he proceeds to flirt with and then dance with Lucy in the presence of her fiance, and the nonverbal interplay is wonderful. Jonathan is threatened and intimidated (and shows this later in a comment that evening once the party is over) by the suave Count. This is what I think of in the definition "to deprive (a man) of his male role or identity," and therefore not requiring a woman to do this to a man necessarily.

  16. #16
    Not as sweet as you think Aggy B.'s Avatar
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    Originally, Wonder Woman first appeared in WWII, not WWI. So, I'm not sure how they'll touch on that in movie canon. (Although, chances are they won't make a movie about her in WWII at this point.) I believe it was rumored that they chose to move it back because they were afraid folks would think it too similar to the Captain America origin film.

    Have you really never seen the folks whining about how if a woman is strong and smart then what are the men supposed to do? There was a big stink about Mad Max: Fury Road because Furiosa and the other women were so present and active in the movie. Also for The Force Awakens. It's rooted in toxic ideas about gender roles, but it's more about women taking away the things we're used to seeing men doing and therefore making them seem weak in comparison because they are no longer dominant. (Even if they are still portrayed as equals.) What you are describing is more like a story-telling version of cuckolding - where a more charming/virile man interferes in a relationship.
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  17. #17
    Mankind is my Business AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed it. I think it's the best solo superhero movie yet.
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    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
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    Eeeeeeeeeee!

    Agree with Richard. I don't think I've ever seen a better film centered on a single superhero.

  19. #19
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  20. #20
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    Loved it muchly. That is all.
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  21. #21
    I aim to misbehave Myrealana's Avatar
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    I was nervous as hell about this movie. The future of women heroes carrying their own movies SHOULDN'T ride on the success or failure of a single movie, but in many ways, it does.

    So, I was pleased when I enjoyed this movie very much. Not in a "Well, if you let go of your previous ideas about the character" way that Man of Steel wasn't that bad, or in the "It had its moments, even if it was ultimately not good" way that BvS had, but in a "I want to see this again! This movie rocks!" way that Captain America: The First Avenger and Iron Man engendered the first time I saw them.
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  22. #22
    I aim to misbehave Myrealana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggy B. View Post
    Have you really never seen the folks whining about how if a woman is strong and smart then what are the men supposed to do?
    My husband's answer to this question: "Um, hang out with them defeating bad guys together? How much better could it get?"
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  23. #23
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    i really enjoyed this movie. i'm not much of a DC fan. i was more...way way more into Marvel. Wonder Woman (and Raven from Teen Titans) were pretty much my only fav DC characters.
    if i get asked or invited to see this movie....i'm gonna go see it again!
    now i'm hoping that maybe the director of Wonder Woman could come over and direct the Dark Phoenix movie.

  24. #24
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
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  25. #25
    Dead Men Tell No Tales Chasing the Horizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    Most of my reasons are kinda big spoilers, but in general...I felt like Dianna wasn't played like a fish out of water, but rather like a completely clueless person who has to constantly be talked down to by Chris Pine. The main antagonist was weak, the secondary antagonist was weak, and the central theme of the movie is completely undercut by depicting Germans as either faceless goons or cackling psychopaths.

    The plot is full of dropped threads, and the other female characters in the movie are painfully underutilized to the point of being essentially non-existant.
    I've been going back and forth on whether I want to see this in theaters and everything Zoombie just said was pretty much why I was afraid I wouldn't like it, especially Wonder Woman being clueless and the Germans being faceless pure villains, both of which I was seeing in the trailers. Of course, trailers can be very misleading (the trailers for Curse of the Black Pearl made it look like a stupid kid-oriented movie, and it ended up being my favorite movie of all time), so I've been hesitant to make my choice just based on them. I've also been worried that way too much time might be spent on her struggling against sexism, as this is something that has often bothered me in other historical/fantasy movies and books. I know it's realistic, but frankly I watch movies and read to ESCAPE that aspect of reality.

    Anyway, I'm still on the fence about seeing Wonder Woman in theaters, since it's certainly the kind of movie I would regret not having seen on the big screen if I see it later and really like it. So could Zoombie or someone else who has seen the movie possibly post or PM me some of the spoiler details that are being left out of the thread? I don't enjoy movies any less for knowing what will happen, and knowing the details would probably let me make up my mind.
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