Help to avoid mansplaining

shakeysix said:

How can men declare themselves as experts on a subject that they have the slimmest grasp of, and then go on, brazenly, to lecture any females they decide need to be enlightened.

Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6

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Generally, I don't let anyone get away with this. Although, sometimes, just walking away is a good thing.

As far as how men are able to decide to be such authorities regardless of a thereof? Well, is it too far-fetched to relate this to the toxic masculinity image/culture that men are expected to adhere to?

PS--I am especially cranky tonight because there I am watching "Separate Tables" and it is pissing me off. Wendy Hiller is in love with Bert Lancaster but is giving him up to Rita Hayworth why? The sad, cold fact is that Rita Hayworth is beautiful and Wendy is not, At least that is what I am drawing from Bert's long winded pontifications.,

Deborah Kerr is usually one of my favorites but if she says "Yes Mummy" one more time, I am going to reach through the screen and bitch slap her. And, Jeezuss H. Christ--why is sparking up a romance with a fraudulent boor who gropes females in cinemas, a happy ever after ending? Is every spinster's lot in life so pathetic that taking up with a sexually inadequate fondler is blessed, heart warming good fortune? And then there is Bert mansplaining to Rita why she is evil and he's not even while he is breaking Wendy's heart. What a POS! --s6

shakeysix said:

Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6

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Exhaustion.

zanzjan said:

The thing about mansplaining is that it's almost never ill-intentioned, and one doesn't want to be ungrateful that someone is trying to be helpful, but that doesn't undo the fundamental effect of underestimating, undermining, and disregarding the explainee, especially when it happens over and over again. It's a side-effect of privilege and of unquestioned/underquestioned personal dominant paradigms. And it's one level when the 'splainer is making assumptions about stuff like nails and screws, and another level entirely when it's about matters of the lived experience and/or identity of others.

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I think it's important to acknowledge that it's almost never ill-intentioned. The clip I shared above included the reason(s) why mansplaining happens in the first place—we bring up our sons and daughters to different societal expectations. And we're still doing it in myriad small ways. We've begun to send mixed messages in our zeal to open up the world to our girls. How are our boys going to find their footing in this changing world if we don't also stop teaching them they are to be the ones in charge, that they are supposed to have the answers, and they must be the ones to be relied upon?

And, I'd imagine it must be terribly confusing to a lot of men caught in this transition right now. We tell them that, yeah, well now things have changed and you'll have to change with them. But how are they supposed to do that? What's their fallback plan? Society as a whole is still sending them the same old coded messages. Even the men who do conciously get it (for the most part) have to unlearn unconcious thought patterns and behaviors that they've never had to even think about. They will make mistakes. That's guaranteed.

So that's my take. And I think we're all going to be losers in this deal unless and until we figure this out.

ETA: I just want to clarify that the aforegoing is not meant to let our mansplainers off the hook. Nope. It's simply an acknowledgment that it's a lot of work. They're still expected to put that effort in, and the best place to start is to actively listen and learn to self-interrogate.

Believe me, I am just as frustrated with myself for letting things go. I blame it on my upbringing. Sometimes it seems like I was raised in another galaxy. My mother was an outspoken woman for the times but I also had 12 years of catholic schooling. Nunsplaining is hard to shake. --s6

shakeysix said:

So this is my theory on the future of feminism:we make the money, we do the mule work and we listen politely when the man splains it because we are fond of him. --s6

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Sounds like a good trade-off

Some of these anecdotes are hilarious! Well, in a sad way, anyway. It's funny, I often have debates/discussions with my female friends, but I rarely ever feel "lectured" by them. So to me, "mansplaining" is when a guy approaches a conversation with me not as an equal, but as a superior (even though he may be less experienced than I am in that particular subject).

I've got stories...

-In the US, guys would try to pick me up with "Konnichiwa!" or "Hey! You're Korean/Japanese/Filipino/(insert other Asian country here), right?" I'd say, "No." And they'd be like, *pause* "Are you sure? Cause you look Japanese. You must have some Japanese ancestry." Literally male STRANGERS think they know better what my race is than I do.

-I once hired a male photographer to be my second for a wedding. He'd photographed maybe 3 weddings when I hired him. I'd done dozens. The whole fucking day was me going "Ok can you get the bridesmaids there pls?" and him going "It's better if we get the bridesmaids to *that other place* instead. Trust me, I know what I'm doing." It's not even a "What about that other spot? The light hits it rly well." It's just plain old "Trust ME. FOR I AM MAN." I've worked with 4 other photographers, all female, and didn't have a problem with any of them.

-A female friend of mine recently had a book published. Some white guy reviewed it as an "inaccurate portrayal of Muslims" and "this is not what Pakistan is like" and "it's offensive to Muslims". Someone commented on his review and asked if he's Muslim, or has been to Pakistan. He said no, but that's not the point. He just *knows*. My friend is Pakistani, has a PhD in religious studies, lives in Karachi, but this rando thinks he knows better what Pakistan is like because...? I have no idea. Probably read about it on Wiki and now he's an expert.

One night I was in a bar shooting pool with a male acquaintance (I'm female). Around the middle of the game, he starts giving me advice on how to hold the cue, what ball to hit into what pocket, etc.

I've had this happen before, but the sick part is that this guy was losing. I was ahead of him in the game.

I didn't even know what to say. I think I just mumbled something incoherent, ignored the advice, and kept playing. But I couldn't believe the gall.

I think that men might do this in order to not feel inferior when he's losing at something. But in the common sense department, who in their right mind would take advice from a person that's losing?

IDK. I guess the common sense factor doesn't factor in when it comes to mansplaining.

I've had multiple discussions with someone in my family about my knowledge of writing and publishing. I have a BA in Moving Image Arts with a focus on screenwriting, won a scholarship to a professional conference due to my writing - while in college, and have spent 10+ years reading and studying about the publishing industry, writing on a daily basis, and selling short fiction to pro-markets.

But apparently I still know less than someone who took a few English courses in college, and one class in technical writing, and graduated with an Associates Degree almost 30 years ago. (But has not studied publishing then or since.) Because being an English major (who doesn't write fiction or non-fiction in any sort of professional capacity or even on a regular basis *cough* ever *cough*) is apparently a thing that makes one more of an expert than someone who writes every day and sells their work for money.

shakeysix said:

Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6

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Well, based on my observations it's in part because if you stand your ground you become a target for verbal abuse and hostility, and that switch flips fast. Guy I had previously thought of as a nice, fairly goofy individual turned into Mr. Hyde when a woman dared suggest A) he was wrong and B) she didn't find him attractive. I ended up having to show him the door, because he missed it the first time I 'asked' him to leave and hit the wall instead.

I'd like to know why men don't do more about it. Where is the fun in watching someone be a condescending asshat who is interrupting the person who actually has something interesting to say?

Venavis said:

I'd like to know why men don't do more about it. Where is the fun in watching someone be a condescending asshat who is interrupting the person who actually has something interesting to say?

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Unfortunately, I think a lot of men don't notice when it happens. Either because they do it themselves, or because it seems perfectly natural to them that a man would explain something to a woman. Or because when a woman talks about how men don't take her seriously they just assume she's exaggerating. (Because this is what our culture has taught us to believe is true.) I have friends who were genuinely shocked by that tweet thread a couple months ago where the guy "switched places" with the woman he worked with (they agreed to sign each others name in correspondence to see if there was actually a difference in the way their clients treated them). He discovered that the reason she was getting so much less work done was not because she was slow or not good at her job, but because their clients would argue with her over stuff they took as a given from him. He was someone who was smart enough/willing enough to understand what was going on, but a lot of men will never even notice that something like that happens. They are brought up not to.

Venavis said:

Well, based on my observations it's in part because if you stand your ground you become a target for verbal abuse and hostility, and that switch flips fast.

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Oh man, is this ever true. With my previous example of guys guessing my race, so many of them react with indignation or even anger when I tell them politely that I'm not whatever race they guessed. "Are you suuure?" too often turns to an angry "You're NOT." I have felt, on a couple of occasions, threatened enough to say, "Um, well maybe I have some Korean/Japanese/whatever ancestry that I don't know of? Ha ha." just to get out of an increasingly uncomfortable situation. And then I feel really angry at myself later on for playing into their little game.

I'd like to know why men don't do more about it. Where is the fun in watching someone be a condescending asshat who is interrupting the person who actually has something interesting to say?

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The sad part is, so many of my guy friends are just clueless when this goes on. I tend to point it out to them later on, and they'll be like, "Ooohh. Wow, I totally missed that." I think it's easy to miss stuff like this when it doesn't happen to you.

Aggy B. said:

He was someone who was smart enough/willing enough to understand what was going on, but a lot of men will never even notice that something like that happens. They are brought up not to.

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TBF, it's such a ubiquitous part of living life female that I didn't even think about it as something to push back on until recent years. It was a "smile, nod, work around it" problem - yet another a thing men did that I was expected to adapt to. The goal was to placate them quickly and get them out of the way so you could get done whatever you needed to get done. Heaven forbid anyone suggest men make a change.

Putputt said:

The sad part is, so many of my guy friends are just clueless when this goes on. I tend to point it out to them later on, and they'll be like, "Ooohh. Wow, I totally missed that." I think it's easy to miss stuff like this when it doesn't happen to you.

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Then there's the 'oh, you're just imagining it', because they are too clueless to notice and if they didn't notice it means it totally didn't happen. Because men create reality or something.

mccardey said:

Exhaustion.

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And in worst case scenarios, fear.

My go-to response to mansplainers in my daily life (work is a different thing) is just a flat, plain, "Okay." As has been mentioned, most mansplainers don't mean ill-will, and many will react with anger or defensiveness if you disagree. So this tends to work for me because it both gives the impression that I've listened and shuts it down.

I've been powerlifting for about five years now. It took a lot of work for me to become comfortable on the weight floor as a woman. It's kind of hilarious but also sad how many encounters I and my other femme friends have had with mansplainers.

One time I had a guy actually stop me in the middle of an exercise and make me take out my headphones to explain to me that I was doing it wrong. I was doing bicep curls. (I just said okay, put my headphones back in, and carried on.)

I learned not to engage after a guy became furious that I disagreed with him that you're supposed to look up at the ceiling while doing barbell back squats. He kept arguing with me even after I'd explained why I wasn't looking up at the ceiling.

Oh! And then once I took a bench press that had weight on it but otherwise no sign that anyone was using it (it's very common at this gym for people to not unload the bar when they've finished). A guy interrupted my sets to explain that he "wasn't mad" but that I should know (how?) that he had been using it.

I have never seen men talk to each other on the weight floor the way they talk to women.

Helix said:

Then there's the 'oh, you're just imagining it', because they are too clueless to notice and if they didn't notice it means it totally didn't happen. Because men create reality or something.

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mayqueen said:

I have never seen men talk to each other on the weight floor the way they talk to women.

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Agh, yes. Mansplaining happens so often that I do sometimes find myself thinking: Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive? Maybe I'm just imagining it? But then I have observed exactly that: The same guy who's just mansplained something to a woman would then go on to discuss the same exact topic with another guy, but this time, he'd approach it as an equal, not as a lecturer.

Oh God....I almost spit out my coffee laughing at some of the anecdotes here. As one of the official "menfolk", may I apologize on behalf of those who are mainsplaining without meaning to? (I do try to avoid it personally at all costs, considering myself more of a student than a teacher )

I wonder if there is a corollary to this gender bias of mansplaining relative to our elders?

This is most evident to me in fields of technology - computers, telecommunications, etc. Trying to teach your elder about a computer, (or in my case, an old school TDM guy about VOIP) is challenging because they think they know more than you by virtue of their age. I've always been taught to respect my elders, but when it becomes my job to teach you telecommunications because you come to my class, why do they talk for 5 minutes on SIP and get it nearly all wrong? (and for what it's worth, the same guy who "knew" the TDM side "like the back of his hand" knew absolutely nothing about Nyquist's theorem... )

Jason said:

Oh God....I almost spit out my coffee laughing at some of the anecdotes here. As one of the official "menfolk", may I apologize on behalf of those who are mainsplaining without meaning to? (I do try to avoid it personally at all costs, considering myself more of a student than a teacher )

I wonder if there is a corollary to this gender bias of mansplaining relative to our elders?

This is most evident to me in fields of technology - computers, telecommunications, etc. Trying to teach your elder about a computer, (or in my case, an old school TDM guy about VOIP) is challenging because they think they know more than you by virtue of their age. I've always been taught to respect my elders, but when it becomes my job to teach you telecommunications because you come to my class, why do they talk for 5 minutes on SIP and get it nearly all wrong? (and for what it's worth, the same guy who "knew" the TDM side "like the back of his hand" knew absolutely nothing about Nyquist's theorem... )

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This would be men talking to men, would it?

My cousin's daughter makes maps for a living--can't remember the term for the profession but she has degree in it, spent years earning it from a university. She travels a lot, so we don't see her that often but she was home for holidays a couple years ago. I spent a good hour visiting with her about her work, listening to her adventures. Days later, my brother heard from someone that Haley worked with surveys and maps. His reaction? "Why didn't anyone tell me? I'm nuts about maps! I'd love to tell her about MY maps."

Yeah. Jimmy, our cousin, told you. I heard him say it. Instead of listening, you shook her hand, brushed past her and went into the kitchen to talk shotguns, footballs and dicks with the dicks.

Okay. I've told several ugly stories about my brother so I have to tell one good one. Some years ago a co-worker of his mentioned that his sister was waiting for him on the parking lot. She had been released from a hospital in Wichita after a serious illness and operation. From Wichita to her hometown in western Kansas, is an almost a 3 hour trip. Her family had been leap frogging her across Kansas,, one sibling picking her up in Wichita and driving her to the next sibling's house, just dropping her and her suitcase off like a parcel. When my brother heard about this, he drove the woman, a complete stranger, straight to her door, helped her into the house and told her to call him if she had trouble. Her own brother offered him gas money but my brother would not take it. For days he fumed about this treatment. He said over and over that he could not respect anyone who treated his sister like that. NOT to his eternal credit, he also had to add "and she wasn't even good looking!"

And this is why I love him so. Oh, and the night my husband died he was the first family on the scene, flying all the way from Eugene, Oregon on very short notice. He walked through the door after midnight. I threw myself into his arms. He was carrying a hacksaw--swear to god. Because he knew our downstairs shower needed to be re-plumbed. --s6

I'm a bloke and even I've been manspained to - I once had a green belt explain martial arts to me at a time when I had already been a fully-qualified instructor for several years, but he was a fair bit older than me so "obviously" knew what he was talking about. I also had long hair at the time and I think he thought I was gay, so "obviously" wouldn't know anything about martial arts... smh.

Helix said:

This would be men talking to men, would it?

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Most of the time, yes, if my class attendees are any indicator, but I've actually had women that are my senior try to tell me how to use my camera who couldn't tell me what the exposure triangle was if their lives depended on it.

ETA: Love the new sig btw!

PeteMC said:

I'm a bloke and even I've been manspained to - I once had a green belt explain martial arts to me at a time when I had already been a fully-qualified instructor for several years, but he was a fair bit older than me so "obviously" knew what he was talking about. I also had long hair at the time and I think he thought I was gay, so "obviously" wouldn't know anything about martial arts... smh.

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But if you're a bloke, then wouldn't it be bloke-splaining?

Jason, as somebody who's taught adults (and befriended teachers), there is definitely overlap in behavior between insecure/overconfident students and insecure/overconfident men. One difference, maybe, is that if a male teacher does his job/stands firm on his expertise, he is (in my experience) less likely to get called a bitch or worse, be sexualized and/or belittled in front of his students and peers, get followed to his car after class and harassed, or get questioned by male supervisors as maybe the source of the problem because who believes such things even happen? (A: Women. Women believe it because it happens to us.)

ETA: And no matter how a female teacher handles her students, she will get lower-rated teacher evaluations, because she isn't a man. (Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/news...evidence-against-student-evaluations-teaching)