Help to avoid mansplaining
- Thread starter Laer Carroll
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heh. A couple of things come quickly to mind: 1.) Don't assume expertise, especially on a subject others are likely to know more about; 2.) Put thought into phrasing when presenting information we've come across. Does our delivery present the information as the final authority? Does it make it sound like we're that final authority? If so, revise and rewrite to be inclusive before hitting the "Post Quick Reply" button.
Keep in mind that if someone is disagreeing with you that doesn't necessarily mean they know less about a subject than you do. Could just as easily mean they know a hell of a lot more.
Also, good rule of thumb - Never, ever, ever, lecture someone about their own lived experience. A person who actually lives in Alaska probably knows a lot more about living in Alaska than you do, no matter how many movies set in Alaska you've watched.
Also, good rule of thumb - Never, ever, ever, lecture someone about their own lived experience. A person who actually lives in Alaska probably knows a lot more about living in Alaska than you do, no matter how many movies set in Alaska you've watched.
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This. I'll never forget a call I received a few days after Hurricane Katrina, wherein I was informed that Canal Street was not only completely flooded, but that the water was infested with sharks that escaped from the aquarium downtown.
I explained that, in fact, the area around the aquarium was dry, and even as far down as the hospital, the water only got about knee-deep. However, the person I was speaking with refused to believe me... despite the fact that AT THAT MOMENT I was standing on Canal street and had waded down to the hospital that morning to see if they needed volunteers for anything.
One of the dads of an elementary school classmate once insisted to my mom that my sibling and I, close in age, looked so similar, we must be twins. My mom was like, "I was there." The guy reiterated, with conviction, "No, they're twins." My mom still finds this the most hilarious case of mansplaining ever.
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My brother-in-law likes to find interesting articles and read them out loud to my sister. I was staying at their house yesterday to help with garden work. BIL decided that we needed a lecture on Thomas Cromwell, only because he was watching some romanticized, semi-historical slop on the TeeVee. So then he googled the man and no doubt found the Wikipedia article. Now, when I was teaching Comp 1 & 2 I would skin alive any student who used Wikipedia as a source. I did not point that out.
I did point out that I had taken a college class on the Reformation andso had my sister--who incidentally went to college in England for a semester. I said that if he wanted a decent source I could give him a few books, when I finished pick axing the river rock out of a flower bed that our father and brother had rocked over to make their yard work easier. (weeds do come up through rocks and weed- bar fabric, and only a bona fide moron would think differently, but I digress.)
Anyway, my sister and I still had to listen to the Cromwell lecture because BIL never went to college--well, I think flunking out of the University of Phoenix counts as never--and he is kind of sensitive about it so we sat, in our grubbly clothes and shoes, and listened politely because we kind of like the guy. (she more than I) And he has a bad back so can't help with the heavy work and he hates that. You can see it on his face. And because he works as my sisters classroom para. She's the teacher, he's the para. Can't be easy for him, so we listen and humor him.
So this is my theory on the future of feminism:we make the money, we do the mule work and we listen politely when the man splains it because we are fond of him. --s6
I did point out that I had taken a college class on the Reformation andso had my sister--who incidentally went to college in England for a semester. I said that if he wanted a decent source I could give him a few books, when I finished pick axing the river rock out of a flower bed that our father and brother had rocked over to make their yard work easier. (weeds do come up through rocks and weed- bar fabric, and only a bona fide moron would think differently, but I digress.)
Anyway, my sister and I still had to listen to the Cromwell lecture because BIL never went to college--well, I think flunking out of the University of Phoenix counts as never--and he is kind of sensitive about it so we sat, in our grubbly clothes and shoes, and listened politely because we kind of like the guy. (she more than I) And he has a bad back so can't help with the heavy work and he hates that. You can see it on his face. And because he works as my sisters classroom para. She's the teacher, he's the para. Can't be easy for him, so we listen and humor him.
So this is my theory on the future of feminism:we make the money, we do the mule work and we listen politely when the man splains it because we are fond of him. --s6
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Ok, that's full-on hilarious. Maybe he didn't actually understand 'twins'' as a concept?
Some twitter or tumbler or something mansplaining feed I saw once had a guy telling a woman she could not be having her period, and thus didn't need to buy tampons or whatever sparked it, because it was "not the 28th." The layers of stupid are just endless.
*chuckles* "Shared experiences" and all that jazz. You're right, you know, we do facilitate it—or at least we do, until we become old women who turn the air blue because enough is enough, already.
Thing going on here even as we discuss this topic: We're in the process of remodeling my potting shed. Now, we bought this property something like eight years before we were ready to move and retire here, so I designed a potting shed at that time. A little here and a little there, we constructed the sucker. Over this past winter, the ceiling was damaged and caved in from the heavy rains. The hubs cleaned all the debris away—thank you, dear—and we had the shed re-roofed. I told him about the changes I want to make since we have it torn down from wall studs to subfloor. He started lecturing me on "how" the shed was constructed and what my changes mean, yeah? I reminded him that I did the "constructin'" with only a little of his help except for setting the footings and raising the roof trusses (which I built), because he had his own projects. His response? "Oh, yeah. That's right."
Thing going on here even as we discuss this topic: We're in the process of remodeling my potting shed. Now, we bought this property something like eight years before we were ready to move and retire here, so I designed a potting shed at that time. A little here and a little there, we constructed the sucker. Over this past winter, the ceiling was damaged and caved in from the heavy rains. The hubs cleaned all the debris away—thank you, dear—and we had the shed re-roofed. I told him about the changes I want to make since we have it torn down from wall studs to subfloor. He started lecturing me on "how" the shed was constructed and what my changes mean, yeah? I reminded him that I did the "constructin'" with only a little of his help except for setting the footings and raising the roof trusses (which I built), because he had his own projects. His response? "Oh, yeah. That's right."
Here's a link that might help anyone interested. It's a short clip of a man explaining mansplaining "What's Mansplaining? Here's How (and Why) You Need to Stop Privileged Explaining." He also goes into a short reference on whitesplaining. I recommend it; it's informative and will bring a chuckle, if you're in the right frame of mind.
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I'll admit that I may have been guilty of this a time or two in my life.
I once argued with a Mexican lady about the definition of Speedy Gonzales' catchphrase. My only defense is that I was twelve at the time.
I once argued with a Mexican lady about the definition of Speedy Gonzales' catchphrase. My only defense is that I was twelve at the time.
I used to think a friend of mine was exaggerating some of her customers until I happened to see it for myself. I watched, a little dumbfounded, as this dumbass lectured her on how swords are made.... while standing in her smithy, next to a display of swords she'd made. I mean, I believed her, but I just didn't quite get the full scope of the stupid until that very moment.
So, I find that concrete examples of something that has occurred in ones own life are good. Not just generalizations based on an article read, or just a reiteration of the article itself. I find that a lot of men think the problem is that they "have an opinion" and women don't want that. But, personally, I don't mind the sharing of information, but if you are trying to correct me on something I've studied or actually done, you'd better have actually studied or done that thing too, not just read something while waiting for the bus or sitting on the toilet.
The trick with sharing personal examples is that sometimes (a lot of times) that can result in "centering" the conversation around you, rather than around the actual subject of the conversation. So you have to be sensitive to what the actual conversation is. And, sometimes, you have to accept that there is nothing for you to add. (I have a general rule on Twitter than when PoC/LGBTQAI are discussing something regarding systematic racism and discrimination, I retweet, but I don't comment. Because I very rarely have anything to add. I *have* been discriminated against, but unless the discuss directly intersects where I live - poor, white, female, recovering conservative, recovering Catholic - I try to keep my mouth shut and instead let the folks who are actually living with a thing discuss it.)
There's also accepting that just because you want to learn more about something, no one has an obligation to explain it for you. There is plenty of material out there to be read on pretty much every social justice issue, on pretty much every other issue ever. You just have to look. And, if you find something that seems off or challenges something you always assumed was a certain way, you can ask for help, but do it with humility and not the expectation that someone must respond just because you're trying to do the right thing.
Semantics matter. "I found this article and it's super-interesting," is not the same as "Has anyone else read this article because it's making me wonder about X and D and this is why because <personal example>."
And, if you screw something up (I do, a lot) then be honest if people call you out on it and apologize without being defensive (which is really fucking hard to do, but if you're saying anything other than "I'm sorry," then maybe don't post it until you've really had time to think things over).
The trick with sharing personal examples is that sometimes (a lot of times) that can result in "centering" the conversation around you, rather than around the actual subject of the conversation. So you have to be sensitive to what the actual conversation is. And, sometimes, you have to accept that there is nothing for you to add. (I have a general rule on Twitter than when PoC/LGBTQAI are discussing something regarding systematic racism and discrimination, I retweet, but I don't comment. Because I very rarely have anything to add. I *have* been discriminated against, but unless the discuss directly intersects where I live - poor, white, female, recovering conservative, recovering Catholic - I try to keep my mouth shut and instead let the folks who are actually living with a thing discuss it.)
There's also accepting that just because you want to learn more about something, no one has an obligation to explain it for you. There is plenty of material out there to be read on pretty much every social justice issue, on pretty much every other issue ever. You just have to look. And, if you find something that seems off or challenges something you always assumed was a certain way, you can ask for help, but do it with humility and not the expectation that someone must respond just because you're trying to do the right thing.
Semantics matter. "I found this article and it's super-interesting," is not the same as "Has anyone else read this article because it's making me wonder about X and D and this is why because <personal example>."
And, if you screw something up (I do, a lot) then be honest if people call you out on it and apologize without being defensive (which is really fucking hard to do, but if you're saying anything other than "I'm sorry," then maybe don't post it until you've really had time to think things over).
Ari, your shed! Thank you for the link, too. It is hard not to 'splain from privilege, and I'm sure I've done it. One parent was a professional lecturer and the other was an editor; in our home, correcting people teaching was a way of life.
I do think it's easy to address a woman with over-confidence without ill intent; we get more of that lecturing, in a way that can be invisible if you're not a woman; and we get judged harshly if we speak more than 30% as much as men. I try to start more sentences with phrases like "in my experience" and talk less than I'm naturally inclined, and I'm sure I still make mistakes.
ETA: +1 to everything Aggy said.
I do think it's easy to address a woman with over-confidence without ill intent; we get more of that lecturing, in a way that can be invisible if you're not a woman; and we get judged harshly if we speak more than 30% as much as men. I try to start more sentences with phrases like "in my experience" and talk less than I'm naturally inclined, and I'm sure I still make mistakes.
ETA: +1 to everything Aggy said.
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With apologies for this temporary derail: When a friend of mine used to tell new acquaintances that she had "triplets, two girls and a boy" the person she was talking to would almost invariably respond with, "Oh, are they identical?"
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Lol, I wish I could say I was surprised.
These are egregious examples, of course, but mansplaining (and whitesplaining, and richsplaining) occur on a regular basis in countless smaller ways. And "smaller" is the problem, because the usually-small scale of these things is a deterrent to speaking out against them. Any individual example can easily be handwaved away with kind interpretations. "Oh, he just wanted to share some particular point." "He was just trying to be nice." "Maybe he didn't realize you already knew this stuff; you should have said something. Oh, you're being overly sensitive; I'm sure it wasn't that bad." And on and on.
You know, it just occurred to me that this downplaying and handwaving is, in itself, a form of mansplaining. "Surely you're overreacting, if you only thought about it the right way."
It's insidious, an IV drip of condescension. Oh, maybe it makes your hand a bit cold, but mostly you tolerate the minor discomfort and often even forget it's there, until that moment when you find yourself with a bladder the size of Rhode Island and realize they've swapped out the bag three times.
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(Notes that having multiples [twins, triplets, etc.] increases exponentially the stupid things people say to you. I could fill a whole thread with stories.)
A few years ago I was in Home Despot once looking for a very particular screw for a project, and as I was standing there, a helpful employee came up and immediately started explaining to me the difference between nails and screws. Then he asked me if I was looking for the gardening section. There was no conversation leading up to this -- he just immediately made (very wrong) assumptions based on my apparent gender.
The thing about mansplaining is that it's almost never ill-intentioned, and one doesn't want to be ungrateful that someone is trying to be helpful, but that doesn't undo the fundamental effect of underestimating, undermining, and disregarding the explainee, especially when it happens over and over again. It's a side-effect of privilege and of unquestioned/underquestioned personal dominant paradigms. And it's one level when the 'splainer is making assumptions about stuff like nails and screws, and another level entirely when it's about matters of the lived experience and/or identity of others.
A few years ago I was in Home Despot once looking for a very particular screw for a project, and as I was standing there, a helpful employee came up and immediately started explaining to me the difference between nails and screws. Then he asked me if I was looking for the gardening section. There was no conversation leading up to this -- he just immediately made (very wrong) assumptions based on my apparent gender.
The thing about mansplaining is that it's almost never ill-intentioned, and one doesn't want to be ungrateful that someone is trying to be helpful, but that doesn't undo the fundamental effect of underestimating, undermining, and disregarding the explainee, especially when it happens over and over again. It's a side-effect of privilege and of unquestioned/underquestioned personal dominant paradigms. And it's one level when the 'splainer is making assumptions about stuff like nails and screws, and another level entirely when it's about matters of the lived experience and/or identity of others.
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I get mansplained about my specialist subjects all the fucking time. And apparently I have a problem when I suggest -- politely, because that's the way I've been brought up -- that I already know the stuff that some rando is explaining to me.
Hey, mansplainers, try switching your comms from transmit to receive once in a while.
ETA: I have to add this, because it's still annoying me decades later. I once had an audience member interrupt when I was giving a keynote address at a conference to add something he thought I didn't know.
Hey, mansplainers, try switching your comms from transmit to receive once in a while.
ETA: I have to add this, because it's still annoying me decades later. I once had an audience member interrupt when I was giving a keynote address at a conference to add something he thought I didn't know.
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Just yesterday, whilst discussing what cataracts are with a middle-aged male patient who raised the topic, he interrupted me to correct my explanation and definition. Which, um, 
. Sure, I have years of studying eyes and a couple of decades in practice behind me, but he's a man, and thusily knows better.
God, did I ever want to punch him.
. Sure, I have years of studying eyes and a couple of decades in practice behind me, but he's a man, and thusily knows better.God, did I ever want to punch him.
See, this where detailing your knowledge re: techniques in eyeball 'extraction' to the patient would come in handy. You think you know eyes, huh? Let me tell you about eyes ...Just yesterday, whilst discussing what cataracts are with a middle-aged male patient who raised the topic, he interrupted me to correct my explanation and definition. Which, um,
God, did I ever want to punch him.
I hope I've never mansplained. I mean, I probably have, but I try not to.
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I suppose I could've offered to clear out his tear ducts, gratis. Nothing shuts a person up quicker than coming at their eye with a syringe.
I reckon being alert to the issue is a huge part of not being a mansplainer. IME, most of the worst culprits have no self-awareness.
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Mansplaining often expands into the behavioural category of 'expecting others to spend their time and and energy educating you, instead of you taking the time and effort to identify and address the gaps in your own knowledge' (Subtitle: 'because your time is clearly far more valuable than theirs'; Footnote: 'those lesser folk should be honoured to be asked')
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"13th Warrior" was on television once, years ago, when I was visiting my dad and brother. I said something about "Beowulf". It was a family evening--not a holiday, just a weekly dinner. My brother whirled on me, almost angrily. He sneered "Just what do you know about Beowulf?"
I'm an English teacher. He is a machinist. I had thought this was clear. I don't lecture him about injection molds. It makes sense that he would not lecture me about epic poetry. At least to me. But I had forgotten that he "owns" things. He has these things that he has read about, not studied but read an article or two in a magazine or online and then, without the least bit of embarrassment, he becomes an expert on that thing--no certificate, purely self declared.
This time, probably because my daughters were present, two are also English Lit teachers, and were rolling their eyes, I couldn't let it go. I called him out. Turns out he had never even read the thing--just skimmed through an excerpt in a high school textbook. Usually I shut up--family dinner and all, godforbid I make a scene, but this time I -gave him a good, long grilling. Much to my sister and my daughter's delight he backed down--even asked me exactly what I taught. In all the years I have taught, he had never asked me what I taught, or, if he had, he didn't remember.
To my mind, the amazing thing is that he put himself out, publicly, as an expert on something he read once, 40 years ago. I, on the other hand, would never advertise myself as a Beowulf scholar because it bores the crap out of me. I had to grit my teeth and gulp down a nightly tumbler of Wild Irish Rose to get through the assigned pages. And, as I have admitted in other threads, I had to invest in a copy of Cliff's Notes to pass the test. In no way am I an authority.
I took a class on enameling and one on metal -smithing. I have read two books and countless articles on enameling yet I would never try to lecture my brother on the subject because he owns it, although he has never enameled anything. I made a paper weight and a spoon but still I'd never lecture anyone on the subject because I assume anyone talking about enameling has more expertise than I have. I do know a lot about the short stories of Somerset Maugham, Blandings Castle, how to grow perfect columbines--but you have to ask me to hear about it, because I was raised female.
So how can my brother convince himself that he is an authority on something he knows nothing about? I think it is because he loves swords and dicks and Beowulf is big on swords and dicks. But swords and dicks to one side, the Beowulf thing is a big question with the females that I know. How can men declare themselves as experts on a subject that they have the slimmest grasp of, and then go on, brazenly, to lecture any females they decide needs to be enlightened?
Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6
I'm an English teacher. He is a machinist. I had thought this was clear. I don't lecture him about injection molds. It makes sense that he would not lecture me about epic poetry. At least to me. But I had forgotten that he "owns" things. He has these things that he has read about, not studied but read an article or two in a magazine or online and then, without the least bit of embarrassment, he becomes an expert on that thing--no certificate, purely self declared.
This time, probably because my daughters were present, two are also English Lit teachers, and were rolling their eyes, I couldn't let it go. I called him out. Turns out he had never even read the thing--just skimmed through an excerpt in a high school textbook. Usually I shut up--family dinner and all, godforbid I make a scene, but this time I -gave him a good, long grilling. Much to my sister and my daughter's delight he backed down--even asked me exactly what I taught. In all the years I have taught, he had never asked me what I taught, or, if he had, he didn't remember.
To my mind, the amazing thing is that he put himself out, publicly, as an expert on something he read once, 40 years ago. I, on the other hand, would never advertise myself as a Beowulf scholar because it bores the crap out of me. I had to grit my teeth and gulp down a nightly tumbler of Wild Irish Rose to get through the assigned pages. And, as I have admitted in other threads, I had to invest in a copy of Cliff's Notes to pass the test. In no way am I an authority.
I took a class on enameling and one on metal -smithing. I have read two books and countless articles on enameling yet I would never try to lecture my brother on the subject because he owns it, although he has never enameled anything. I made a paper weight and a spoon but still I'd never lecture anyone on the subject because I assume anyone talking about enameling has more expertise than I have. I do know a lot about the short stories of Somerset Maugham, Blandings Castle, how to grow perfect columbines--but you have to ask me to hear about it, because I was raised female.
So how can my brother convince himself that he is an authority on something he knows nothing about? I think it is because he loves swords and dicks and Beowulf is big on swords and dicks. But swords and dicks to one side, the Beowulf thing is a big question with the females that I know. How can men declare themselves as experts on a subject that they have the slimmest grasp of, and then go on, brazenly, to lecture any females they decide needs to be enlightened?
Second question: why do we let them get away with it? --s6
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