I never felt bad about my novel until after I hired an agent.

L.C. Blackwell

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Same here.

Actually, I'm more than a little pleased to hear that. I'd begun to think the breed had vanished, which is not great for people who don't like to go through massive edits twice after the editor wants something completely different from the agent.

So ... :Thumbs:

ETA: I'm realizing from subsequent comments that this probably sounded more critical--and in the wrong way--than I meant it. I do have concerns about the possibility of an agent and an editor having different visions for a book, but the thought in my head when I wrote this was from doing an agent search and reading--and to the best of my recollection, it was an agent who stated it--that she had sometimes edited a book and had an editor request to have material that had been taken out replaced or re-written. This struck me as a situation where the book had better have been left to the editor in the first place, and one in which I wouldn't care to find myself.

I think I would be most comfortable doing first edits directly with an editor, but that is a personality thing, and it's not to say that I couldn't work with an editorial agent; just that I have concerns about finding a "good match" twice.
 
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Aggy B.

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Actually, I'm more than a little pleased to hear that. I'd begun to think the breed had vanished, which is not great for people who don't like to go through massive edits twice after the editor wants something completely different from the agent.

So ... :Thumbs:

Some of that just depends on the book. The second novel I sent to my agent (who is editorial) he asked for a couple of minor tweaks that I made in a day and a half. (Which included doing my last pass to look for typos, tighten up sentences, etc.) The one that followed, I did five different revision passes on. The first Southern Gothic novella he didn't ask for any changes.

(My take away, in regard to my own work, is that I clearly have a better grasp on story when I'm writing in first person present tense.:p )

Anyway. Best of luck with finding an agent who fits your style of writing and editing. :)
 

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Well, hey, I'll out myself as a talentless hack and say my agent's editorial notes (which she only gives me if I ask, which I always do, because frankly if she ever gets tired of the agenting gig she'd make a hell of a structural editor) and my editor's notes tend to either overlap or be complementary. I've never had to alter anything because my editor wants something totally different.

And both of them make the book better. If they didn't, I wouldn't integrate their notes. It's really that easy.
 

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Well, hey, I'll out myself as a talentless hack and say my agent's editorial notes (which she only gives me if I ask, which I always do, because frankly if she ever gets tired of the agenting gig she'd make a hell of a structural editor) and my editor's notes tend to either overlap or be complementary. I've never had to alter anything because my editor wants something totally different.

And both of them make the book better. If they didn't, I wouldn't integrate their notes. It's really that easy.

Haha. I love getting notes from my agent. (He used to be a Big 5 editor before he decided to move over to agenting.) Just saying that, for me, different books require different levels of work and, thus, receive varying levels of input in the "this would make this book stronger" camp.

And I have ignored stuff my agent suggested because it didn't feel right. (And sometimes he will spitball options at me so it's not like he's saying "You must do this," more like "Have you thought about...") :)
 

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RE your title (as I think a lot of the other posters have done a good job covering stuff), if it's partly the submission process that's making you doubt your book, that's normal. Completely. If you'd like more support or chat with other writers going through that, check out the Rejection and Dejection forum with the thread called "The Next Circle." It's all agented writers on sub.
Best of luck!
 

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Well, hey, I'll out myself as a talentless hack and say my agent's editorial notes (which she only gives me if I ask, which I always do, because frankly if she ever gets tired of the agenting gig she'd make a hell of a structural editor) and my editor's notes tend to either overlap or be complementary. I've never had to alter anything because my editor wants something totally different.

And both of them make the book better. If they didn't, I wouldn't integrate their notes. It's really that easy.

My agent's contact over at audible.com is an amazing structural editor, even if that's not his "official" position. It was suggestions from him that helped me kick Legion into good enough shape for publishing. And taught me a thing or four in the process. Good structural editor = gold.
 

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RE your title (as I think a lot of the other posters have done a good job covering stuff), if it's partly the submission process that's making you doubt your book, that's normal. Completely. If you'd like more support or chat with other writers going through that, check out the Rejection and Dejection forum with the thread called "The Next Circle." It's all agented writers on sub.
Best of luck!

Yes, do come and join us! That thread is my lifeline sometimes (often). :)
 

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So I wrote a novel, searched and searched, and finally landed an agent.

I curious about what "landing an agent entailed" Did you have to send her samples of your work or give her a list of publications? I'd also be interested in knowing what her cut was going to be if she did succeed in finding you a publisher.
 

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To get a literary agent you write a book, revise the socks off it, then revise it again.

You then do some basic research into what literary agents do, and which ones would suit your book.

You then write a query (visit our Query Letter Hell room to find guidelines and examples), revise it again and again, and then you send it out and cross your fingers. Meanwhile, get on with writing your next book.
 

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Actually, I'm more than a little pleased to hear that. I'd begun to think the breed had vanished, which is not great for people who don't like to go through massive edits twice after the editor wants something completely different from the agent.

So ... :Thumbs:

ETA: I'm realizing from subsequent comments that this probably sounded more critical--and in the wrong way--than I meant it. I do have concerns about the possibility of an agent and an editor having different visions for a book, but the thought in my head when I wrote this was from doing an agent search and reading--and to the best of my recollection, it was an agent who stated it--that she had sometimes edited a book and had an editor request to have material that had been taken out replaced or re-written. This struck me as a situation where the book had better have been left to the editor in the first place, and one in which I wouldn't care to find myself.

I think I would be most comfortable doing first edits directly with an editor, but that is a personality thing, and it's not to say that I couldn't work with an editorial agent; just that I have concerns about finding a "good match" twice.

Searching for an agent is a stressful thing. When I was querying I had interest from an agent who rapidly went from seeming like a good fit to being (very clearly) not right for me and it was very disheartening.

I also think that for a lot of folks there's an element of imposter syndrome that comes into play when it comes to revising/editing work. Deep down I always worry that my agent/editor will ask for something I know will make the book better, but that I won't be able to achieve. For a lot of folks I think that plays out in not only the way they look at revisions in general, but also makes them worry about having to do something over again. ("This was pretty good the first time I wrote it, but if I have to go back and put stuff back in will it be as good the second time?" Even if you keep anything that gets cut in revisions in a separate file just in case.)

Obviously, YMMV in this regard. I have found it useful to focus myself on the idea that I want the best book possible. And sometimes that means trying things that don't work. And also remembering that I always have the previous version so even if I do mess it up, I can take a step back and try again. Part of writing is practice and practice in writing is not just writing a lot, but also rewriting.

Best of luck with your search. :)
 

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I curious about what "landing an agent entailed" Did you have to send her samples of your work or give her a list of publications? I'd also be interested in knowing what her cut was going to be if she did succeed in finding you a publisher.

To get a literary agent you write a book, revise the socks off it, then revise it again.

You then do some basic research into what literary agents do, and which ones would suit your book.

You then write a query (visit our Query Letter Hell room to find guidelines and examples), revise it again and again, and then you send it out and cross your fingers. Meanwhile, get on with writing your next book.

What Old Hack said.

And the standard commission rate for agents is 15%.
 

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Adding some thoughts to what the others have said.

The "Five Years" thing might also mean that if you self-publish, or find your own publisher for the book, your agent will still be able to claim money off your earnings over the next five years. Or even worse, in perpetuity for that particular book, or any other thing you create until 2022. It might be worth double checking that contract.

First manuscripts are almost always starter books. Most debut novelists have a good 3, 5, 10 unpublished manuscripts under their belt. So it's no terrible thing to spend 6 months in the process with no success, particularly if it's the first time with a first novel.

I have also heard of "spaghetti agents" who will throw everything at publishers and see what sticks!
 
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I seem to recall that there's a statistic that says about 1 out of every 10 manuscripts coming from agents sells to a publisher.

:cry: That's about the most crushing thing I can imagine - getting excited about landing an agent, getting hopes up and then... nothing.

So is it 1 out of 100 are successful at getting an agent (which includes already published authors, so a smaller number of the unpublished who submit) and 1 out of 10 of that 1% get a publisher?

I just read through this thread and I kinda feel like a little kid who just wandered into a grown-up party and heard things I wasn't ready for. But maybe this will keep me from getting over-excited too early in the process and then overly crushed.

For now, I'm taking baby steps and going back to my delusional world, where all things are possible.
 

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I seem to recall that there's a statistic that says about 1 out of every 10 manuscripts coming from agents sells to a publisher. (Of course, folks who sell one can usually then go on to sell another. But I know that Brandon Sanderson had written 12-13 books and been submitting them before he finally got his first offer of publication.)

I've spoken to a lot of agents about this. Most say they sell about half of all the new authors they take on first time round, but they will usually sell subsequent books for those authors if the first books don't sell.

But that first book an agent takes on is rarely the first book a writer writes, so there's that to consider too.


I have also heard of "spaghetti agents" who will throw everything at publishers and see what sticks!

God, yes. Avoid agents who have a habit of taking on lots of new writers, but who don't seem to have a large client list.

:cry: That's about the most crushing thing I can imagine - getting excited about landing an agent, getting hopes up and then... nothing.

So is it 1 out of 100 are successful at getting an agent (which includes already published authors, so a smaller number of the unpublished who submit) and 1 out of 10 of that 1% get a publisher?

I just read through this thread and I kinda feel like a little kid who just wandered into a grown-up party and heard things I wasn't ready for. But maybe this will keep me from getting over-excited too early in the process and then overly crushed.

For now, I'm taking baby steps and going back to my delusional world, where all things are possible.

It's difficult to know how many writers who submit to agents end up finding representation. But that really doesn't matter, because we are all different. It's better to consider the odds for each writer, instead.

Some writers are so good they are almost guaranteed to get published so long as they finish their books and send them to the right places.

Some writers (and sadly, most writers fit into this category) are so bad they have no chance at all of ever getting a trade deal with a reputable publisher.

Some writers are good but scupper their own chances by submitting a bad query, or by sending it to the wrong places and people, or by just being absolute arses to work with.

If you're writing coherent, well-structured prose with few mistakes, you write a good query and send it to the right people, you're probably in the top ten per cent of writers and have much better chances of getting published than most.
 

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God, yes. Avoid agents who have a habit of taking on lots of new writers, but who don't seem to have a large client list.

.

How do you find this out? We can check the number of clients they currently have, but how do we check how many they take on?
 

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How do you find this out? We can check the number of clients they currently have, but how do we check how many they take on?
Check their thread in the Bewares subforum here, and their comments on QueryTracker and similar places, and you should get a feel for how many offers they make.
 

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:cry: That's about the most crushing thing I can imagine - getting excited about landing an agent, getting hopes up and then... nothing.

So is it 1 out of 100 are successful at getting an agent (which includes already published authors, so a smaller number of the unpublished who submit) and 1 out of 10 of that 1% get a publisher?

I just read through this thread and I kinda feel like a little kid who just wandered into a grown-up party and heard things I wasn't ready for. But maybe this will keep me from getting over-excited too early in the process and then overly crushed.

For now, I'm taking baby steps and going back to my delusional world, where all things are possible.

As OldHack pointed out, it's hard to know anything very precisely. And I know it seems discouraging to think that you might do all the right things and still not sell a MS. (I struggle with that too.) But the other thing here, is that it can take time. There are a lot of factors that impact whether a particular (good) MS sells at a particular point. (I've had some vampire stuff I've been sitting on because Twilight triggered another saturation of the market. Of course, vampire stuff is one of those things that *remains* popular so chances are in another year or so the market will be looking for more of it.)

And the other other thing, as OldHack also mentioned, is that the key is getting your MS in front of the right folks. Even if an agent doesn't immediately sell your book, or they don't sell the first one you show them, they are a part of the process to make sure that your MS is landing in front of editors who are looking for what you're writing. (Something you won't necessarily get if you're trying to get through slush at a major publisher.) So, for me, an agent was part of the strategy to try and do the things I could to give my book(s) their best shot at publication. I can't control what the market wants, I can't control what any editor is looking for, but I can get someone in my corner who will know when to send particular things to particular editors so that my MS *is* landing on someone's desk at the "right" time.

The only other thing I can do is try and write the best work I am capable of today and keep pushing forward. My work (and work ethic, so to speak) are the things I can control so that's where I put my energy (most of time). The rest will either happen or it won't, but it won't not happen because I wasn't doing the best I could.
 

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It's difficult to know how many writers who submit to agents end up finding representation. But that really doesn't matter, because we are all different. It's better to consider the odds for each writer, instead.

Some writers are so good they are almost guaranteed to get published so long as they finish their books and send them to the right places.

Some writers (and sadly, most writers fit into this category) are so bad they have no chance at all of ever getting a trade deal with a reputable publisher.

Some writers are good but scupper their own chances by submitting a bad query, or by sending it to the wrong places and people, or by just being absolute arses to work with.

If you're writing coherent, well-structured prose with few mistakes, you write a good query and send it to the right people, you're probably in the top ten per cent of writers and have much better chances of getting published than most.

As OldHack pointed out, it's hard to know anything very precisely. And I know it seems discouraging to think that you might do all the right things and still not sell a MS. (I struggle with that too.) But the other thing here, is that it can take time. There are a lot of factors that impact whether a particular (good) MS sells at a particular point. (I've had some vampire stuff I've been sitting on because Twilight triggered another saturation of the market. Of course, vampire stuff is one of those things that *remains* popular so chances are in another year or so the market will be looking for more of it.)

And the other other thing, as OldHack also mentioned, is that the key is getting your MS in front of the right folks. Even if an agent doesn't immediately sell your book, or they don't sell the first one you show them, they are a part of the process to make sure that your MS is landing in front of editors who are looking for what you're writing. (Something you won't necessarily get if you're trying to get through slush at a major publisher.) So, for me, an agent was part of the strategy to try and do the things I could to give my book(s) their best shot at publication. I can't control what the market wants, I can't control what any editor is looking for, but I can get someone in my corner who will know when to send particular things to particular editors so that my MS *is* landing on someone's desk at the "right" time.

The only other thing I can do is try and write the best work I am capable of today and keep pushing forward. My work (and work ethic, so to speak) are the things I can control so that's where I put my energy (most of time). The rest will either happen or it won't, but it won't not happen because I wasn't doing the best I could.

Thank you Old Hack and Aggy B, really appreciate the info and encouragement. Good way to think about things. I'll definitely keep pushing forward and hope/trust the rest will work out when it's the right time.

CJ
 

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I also think that for a lot of folks there's an element of imposter syndrome that comes into play when it comes to revising/editing work. Deep down I always worry that my agent/editor will ask for something I know will make the book better, but that I won't be able to achieve.

I have found it useful to focus myself on the idea that I want the best book possible. And sometimes that means trying things that don't work. And also remembering that I always have the previous version so even if I do mess it up, I can take a step back and try again. Part of writing is practice and practice in writing is not just writing a lot, but also rewriting.


Even without an agent (yet... hopefully), I relate to this. I get suggestions from readers and I do know they're good suggestions, but they're not always something I think I'm capable of. And anytime I'm encouraged to take it from "good" to "great", I'm thinking I don't know if I have "great" in me.

I've messed with my opening so many times, and, yeah, tried things that are sometimes steps backward or don't work, but hopefully it's all part of the (often humiliating) process.
 

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God, yes. Avoid agents who have a habit of taking on lots of new writers, but who don't seem to have a large client list.

How do you find this out? We can check the number of clients they currently have, but how do we check how many they take on?

It's tricky. I know quite a few agents I wouldn't even consider submitting to even though they have a strong history of good sales, because I also know that they are unpleasant to work with or disrespectful to their author-clients: but I can't pass that information on to people here, for obvious reasons.

How to work those things out for yourself? Look for agents who have not only made good sales, but who have made more than one sale for most of their clients. Look for agents who do not have a high turnover of clients. Look for agents who have author-clients who speak highly of them after they've been with them for a while. And look for agents who are nice! Agents who are stand-offish are not likely to be easy or enjoyable to work with and if they're rude or dismissive of people, they're going to alienate editors too.
 

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It's tricky. I know quite a few agents I wouldn't even consider submitting to even though they have a strong history of good sales, because I also know that they are unpleasant to work with or disrespectful to their author-clients

I don't doubt you at all, but I find this a difficult attitude to understand - if I don't earn then neither does my agent, so why would she want to piss me off? Thankfully my agent is lovely, but I'm sure there are some who aren't. Still don't understand it though...

One thing that occurred to me reading this is that I don't think I'd want to be a minor or even midlist client at a big, rockstar agency. There are only so many hours in a working day after all, and if I want my agent's time and so does a major NYT bestseller then I know who's going to win, and it ain't me.
 

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Patience is a virtue.

Publishing works at a snail's pace. You need to sit back and relax.
Do you have unrealistic expectations that your ms will be sold overnight? Four months is not a long time, nor time enough to be thinking about chucking your writing career.

The best thing for you to do is to start on a new writing project. If you consider writing a sequel, remember to make it a full fledged story that can stand alone, because the original ms may not be sold at all. This is common.

Yes, my agent sent my ms out without changes or edits.

I'm going to take the opposite of all the negativity, and suggest you look at this as grasping the brass ring. You have an agent who is submitting your ms. There are thousands/millions of writers who would give their right leg and firstborn to be in your position.

I think you need to take a deep breath, relax and not be impatient. It will happen, and if this particular ms doesn't sell, just think, you have five years worth of agenting to look forward to, so you can devote all your energy towards writing new mss your agent can submit.

Good Luck and good job!
 

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I don't doubt you at all, but I find this a difficult attitude to understand - if I don't earn then neither does my agent, so why would she want to piss me off? Thankfully my agent is lovely, but I'm sure there are some who aren't. Still don't understand it though...

Some, and only some, Type A personalities can be abrasive without trying very hard. There is a particular persona that is determined to win at any cost, by methods that tend to my-way-or-the-highway. In agenting, these people pride themselves on being hard-nosed at the negotiating table, and walking away with high-end deals. If you want them to work on your behalf, they will insist on their rules. When I read Old Hack's comment, a particular agent sprang immediately to mind, followed by another. Blog posts written by, and interviews with these agents are not always indicative--but sometimes they can be, especially if you follow their postings for a long time.
 

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I don't doubt you at all, but I find this a difficult attitude to understand - if I don't earn then neither does my agent, so why would she want to piss me off? Thankfully my agent is lovely, but I'm sure there are some who aren't. Still don't understand it though...

I don't think agents intend to piss their clients off. I think they assume they know better than their clients, and patronise them, and so on. Agents who make several brilliant deals and who don't spend much time outside their own little bubble of success can develop a somewhat distorted view of the world.

I'm not protecting them here, and I do share your point of view. It's a bizarre way to behave. It benefits no one. But it still happens.

One thing that occurred to me reading this is that I don't think I'd want to be a minor or even midlist client at a big, rockstar agency. There are only so many hours in a working day after all, and if I want my agent's time and so does a major NYT bestseller then I know who's going to win, and it ain't me.

I don't think that's true (but then I am a minor client at Curtis Brown!). Good agents look after all their clients. And rockstar agencies don't get to be like that because they happen to represent a few big names: they get to be huge agencies because they are so good at what they do--for ALL of their clients.

Some, and only some, Type A personalities can be abrasive without trying very hard. There is a particular persona that is determined to win at any cost, by methods that tend to my-way-or-the-highway. In agenting, these people pride themselves on being hard-nosed at the negotiating table, and walking away with high-end deals. If you want them to work on your behalf, they will insist on their rules. When I read Old Hack's comment, a particular agent sprang immediately to mind, followed by another. Blog posts written by, and interviews with these agents are not always indicative--but sometimes they can be, especially if you follow their postings for a long time.

Yes!

I wonder if we're thinking of the same agents here. I bet we are.