Witchhunt?
If I was any more polite, I'd be fawning. Don't expect that--English courtesy has its limits.
If I was any more polite, I'd be fawning. Don't expect that--English courtesy has its limits.
Witchhunt?
If I was any more polite, I'd be fawning. Don't expect that--English courtesy has its limits.
I don't think guilt is at all the right response, and (aside from a few loud voices) it's not what anyone is trying to achieve.
You're both advocating ignoring the voices of marginalised people who don't have the privilege to ignore "PC" issues because, for them, they aren't interesting philosophical ponderings but real life. Everyday life.
Do you really think that's okay, and right?
If I want to do right by his culture, I can either not write the story, or I can do my research and treat him like a person. I'm choosing to do the second one.
I generally spend my time writing, not pissing around on web sites trying to memorize the latest acronym for the XYZ groupe du jour.
Pay up.I'll betcha nobody here even knows what or where Tsimshian is without looking it up.
Both member of culture X and I are better off in a free marketplace of ideas, with cultural norms that will allow us both to say what we want and then will judge who is more worthy of being listened to, than either of us would be under the cultural rubric of PC, which imposes a singular (and, in my view, flawed) view of the world and demands that all "language and practices which could offend political sensibilities" (in other words, non-conforming thought) be "eliminated."
politically correct
adj. Abbr. PC
Conforming to a particular sociopolitical ideology or point of view, especially to a liberal point of view concerned with promoting tolerance and avoiding offense in matters of race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.
1798 A. J. Dallas Rep. Cases U.S. & Pennsylvania 2 462 Sentiments and expressions of this inaccurate kind prevail in our..language... ‘The United States’, instead of the ‘People of the United States’, is the toast given. This is not politically correct.
I find it interesting that the term "PC" is only ever brought into the conversation by people who want to use it to build a straw man.Definition of political correctness from Merriam Webster: "conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated."
Do I think that it's okay and right for a person to make a conscious decision not to defer to a PC speech or thought code, and to make his or her own decisions about what's right and wrong to think or say or write? Yes, I absolutely do.
If I write about culture X, and a member of culture X gets upset because I'm not of culture X, neither of us has done anything wrong, and neither of us has committed any injustice against the other. I have a legal and moral right to do the writing; member of culture X has a moral and legal write to get upset about what I wrote. If member of culture X thinks my writing is in error, the remedy shouldn't be to silence me--it should be for for him or her to do her own writing and correct me--heck, even condemn me.
Both member of culture X and I are better off in a free marketplace of ideas, with cultural norms that will allow us both to say what we want and then will judge who is more worthy of being listened to, than either of us would be under the cultural rubric of PC, which imposes a singular (and, in my view, flawed) view of the world and demands that all "language and practices which could offend political sensibilities" (in other words, non-conforming thought) be "eliminated."
As Scaachi Koul noted, "no one, in the history of writing books, has ever suggested that white people are not allowed to write thoughtful portrayals of Indigenous people or people of colour, namely in fiction." Cultural Appropriation is not the expansive, empathetic imagining of the other -- it is rather, the theft of other's stories as if they were your own. How, possibly, could this be so difficult to understand? It isn't, of course, but it sure helps to be this obtuse when it comes to holding on to one's privilege.
the act of taking or using things from a culture that is not your own, especially without showing that you understand or respect this culture:
Some see his use of African music as cultural appropriation.
“Taking intellectual property, traditional knowledge, cultural expressions, or artifacts from someone else's culture without permission. This can include unauthorized use of another culture's dance, dress, music, language, folklore, cuisine, traditional medicine, religious symbols, etc.
It's most likely to be harmful when the source community is a minority group that has been oppressed or exploited in other ways or when the object of appropriation is particularly sensitive, e.g. sacred objects.”
In the United States, cultural appropriation almost always involves members of the dominant culture (or those who identify with it) “borrowing” from the cultures of minority groups.
^So much this (bolding mine). I research the hell out of the science when I'm writing SF, because SF readers delight in making you look foolish if you get the science wrong. So why wouldn't I research the cultures I'm writing about? Isn't it better to try to get it right to avoid looking foolish? To get sensitivity readers to weed out the stupid shit before it goes public? Why is that such a chore? Oh! I get it, because white writers who moan about PC are writing for white readers, who won't know the difference. That's basically saying: no one else matters, and that not only blows goats, but entire herds of ungulates.As writers, we generally should attempt to be believable, even in terms of our elves and orcs. It is particularly likely to make us look foolish if we portray other cultures, other places, and other times inaccurately. And it may even be so offensive that we lose readers.
Being politically correct more accurately refers to using phrases like "vertically challenged" for short. Or "sunshine units" to refer to measuring the potential damage of radiation levels. I suggest that Orwell's Politics and the English Language is still worth reading.
It does rather bring to mind people who supported the name of the Redskins football team saying 'they've had that name for 80 years, it's part of our heritage and culture.'because they may not listen enough to consider who is asking for the change and why.
There is a huuuge difference between "pleasing people" and "not wanting to hurt people". I ignore one and pay a lot of attention to the other.
I think that as long as you realize that everyone shares certain things in common like wanting to practice your particular religious belief without retribution, having the ability to provide your families, the ability to love who you choose to love, the ability to have autonomy over your own body, and writing these diverse characters as if you yourself happened to find yourself as a different sex, race, religion, culture, or time period and treat your characters as if they have real fleshed out lives with purpose and goals instead of being a cliche, a tool, a prop, or a decoration.
Just like a science fiction writer goes to a scientist to learn about outer space
As an example, just look at the OP -- He wants to write First Nations characters, but proudly insists on calling them "Indians", a term which he *knows* isn't for him to use, but he feels entitled to use it anyway, because fuck FN people for wanting to define themselves, and THIS GUY is the guy you're telling to "write whatever the hell you want", because "people are offended over EVERYTHING these days". I mean...REALLY?? I get defending the rights of people who genuinely want to write PoC characters and approach it with respect and dignity, but THIS GUY?? I just...*headdesk*
I'd say stand your ground and defend your opinions no matter what. Many authors have taken hits for having a different opinion but they keep at it. If you don't get published you could always self-publish.
Hublocker, just ignore all the PC noise. A lot of great works of fiction never would have come to be if their authors had been concerned with cultural pressure (like PC). Write your story, do your best to sell it, and let the chips fall where they may.
EVERYONE is free to write about whatever the hell they want. Everyone is NOT free to stereotype, slight, demean, or make up stuff when they are writing. Not without being called out and held accountable for being a bad and lazy writer.
I am not understanding where the thought process of "soon, white people will feel like they can only write about white people" is coming from. I literally have not seen anyone anywhere advocate that.
Wow, long thread.
I am not understanding where the thought process of "soon, white people will feel like they can only write about white people" is coming from. I literally have not seen anyone anywhere advocate that.
As your average white guy working in tech, I don't even pretend to understand the hardships marginalized groups face every day (including women). Especially when it is something that has been perpetuated on a generational scale. The very least I can do is listen and engage with people of every background with an open mind. I will never know what it is truly like to walk a day in their lives, but that doesn't mean I get to just close my eyes and ears and pretend nothing is wrong.
Also, I don't get the "only Indians can use the word Indian... and they do." line in the OP. If they only want to call each other Indians but want folks of different backgrounds to use a more accurate term.. then that is up to them. My daughter calls me Daddy- it'd be really weird that just because she calls me that, my boss started to call me that too. A bit of a hyperbolic stretch? Yes. Just as absurd.
Honestly, when OP decided to throw in the "Oops, I used the word Indian", it was very clear he was coming to this discussion with a closed mind. This thread clearly wasn't started to initiate a real discussion about Novels. It is a combative approach to the topic of bias/prejudices and a poorly veiled complaint standing up a straw man (an oppressive publisher who won't consider his book) because of a falsely perceived prejudice (white people can't write about non-white characters).
Surely this thread would be better served in the "Activism, Current Events..." sub, because this discussion has nothing to do with writing a novel but more to do with someones false interpretations of modern day equality efforts. Or perhaps the Asylum is a better resting ground.
I don't post much, but holy moly.
Yes, I would defend his right to tell his story however he wants. I'd defend the right of Trump supporters to rant about whatever they want, too, and I totally despise them for the most part.
Yes, I would defend his right to tell his story however he wants. I'd defend the right of Trump supporters to rant about whatever they want, too, and I totally despise them for the most part. There are people out there who don't use the correct PC terms for various groups (clearly). Why can't his story be about one of those people? Are we only supposed to write about characters who are culturally sensitive? What if the character is a racist?
OP made comments that, to me, felt angry and confrontational. I don't condone them. Yet there seemed an emotion beneath his comments--or at least, in comments from Andi--that I want to acknowledge and address. I grew up in a rural, mostly white area, and I have loved ones who've expressed frustration that, from their perspectives, calls for cultural sensitivity feel like ever-shifting minefields. I am not saying their opinions are correct--stay with me, for a minute--but I am saying that they're genuinely afraid.
Maybe a good place to start is to define cultural appropriation. What does cultural appropriation mean to you?