Cultural Appropriation and Celebration of Failure to Read the Screen

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Hublocker

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With all this discussion going on in Canada about cultural appropriation going on in Canada, I wonder if I'll ever get a publisher to even consider my book.

In case you don't know, and if you're in the U.S. you won't; there is a huge discussion under way in Canada about cultural appropriation with aboriginals saying "don't steal our art, don't steal our voices," people resigning or getting reassigned from prominent editorial positions and even some First Nations writers arguing about who is more Indian than the other. It all comes out of books written by people purporting to be aboriginal and most recently about artwork resembling that of a prominent aboriginal artist.

Oops. I used the word Indian. As a (mostly) white person I'm required by PC law to use the words aboriginal or First Nations.

Only Indians can use the word "Indian" and they do.

In the U.S. you frequently say "Native American."

Anyway, I have a novel I'm preparing to pitch after working on it for two years and it has two FN characters in it, and one is a jerk and the other is a woman with possibly a disappeared sibling. In case you don't know, the issue of murdered and missing aboriginal women is significant in Canada.

Seeing as I'm white (I can't prove my 19th century aboriginal heritage) and I don't depict either one as a saint I might as well give up.
 
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lianna williamson

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I get that it sucks for you that you've got this novel ready to go just at a cultural growing-pains moment that's going to make the content potentially difficult to sell, but take a step back and check yourself. What you are doing is whining that a systematically oppressed people's struggle to define themselves culturally is making your white life so very hard, and that isn't a pretty look.

Also if you think "avoiding cultural appropriation" = "all non-white characters must be depicted as saints", you have a lot of self-educating to do. You are very, very much missing the point.
 
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Harlequin

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While I broadly sympathise with the issue you've highlighted, and feel genuinely sad that writers of any race feel they are locked into only their own segregated culture... you are nonetheless coming across as a bit of a tit in your post.

FWIW, "diverse" novels are rising in popularity with agents, and I don't mean BME writers. White writers using BME characters is very popular.
 

lianna williamson

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There's no actual law that you can't write a book with POC characters if you're white. Speaking as a white writer who has written POC characters, I think what white writers are really often complaining about is receiving negative feedback from POC readers for doing so. We want to just be able to write the book however we want and not have anyone try to make us feel like racists if we unintentionally offend someone.

We need to fucking grow a pair. Research the hell out of the groups you're writing about. Get beta readers from that group to give you feedback. Accept that you undoubtably have racist shit you're not even aware of, and REJOICE that you have this opportunity to confront it, and grow as both a writer and a person.

To quote one of my favorite BookTubers: "Look, there is so much to know about all the different peoples of this world, it is inevitable that at some point in your life you're going to do or say something hurtful or offensive without even realizing it. But to sit on a high horse while you're doing it is not a pretty look."
 
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andiwrite

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I think you should just write whatever you want. This PC stuff is going way too far. Do your research and write intelligently about whatever you choose.
 
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Underdawg47

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It sounds like human history to me. What culture has not taken from other cultures? Who still lives on the land of their ancestors? Apparently all of our ancestors came from Africa and now we are spread across the globe conquering and reconquering lands. In similar ways Israel thinks they have the right to take back ancient land that they once owned in the Bible, yet they stole their land from the Canaanites. It is hard to say who originally owned the land first.

Not only do we steal land, but we have stolen other people's cultures through the millennia and adopted them into our own since the beginning of time. Our language is a mixture of different languages, our art is a mixture of different cultural influences and so is our music. So why should Native Americans be exempt? Yes, our ancestors robbed the native people's of their land and killed them in the process. Our ancestors did horrible things I know, but what do we do now? Is it right to punish those living now for the sins of their forefathers? Do we start by removing native words and copied artwork from our own culture? Should we tread lightly as if on eggshells careful not to copy anything that may or not have been native American in origin? Where does it end? How how back through history can we take this?

I feel for the plight of those suffering at the hands of oppressors, no matter what race they happen to be, but political correctness just seems to me to be an overcompensation for guilt directed in the wrong way. I don't see anything wrong in adopting language, art, and myths into the evolving culture of modern day society. This has always been what we are as a people. I think if we want to help those are oppressed, then we give them the tools to succeed, raise them out of poverty, and go after and punish those who would oppress them economically.
 

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Original Poster here. Otherwise known as the whining tit.

I didn't know what BME meant until I looked it up.

I grew up in the only French-Canadian family in an Anglophone community in western Canada with two nearby Indian reserves. I'm not going into a long "some of my best friends are aboriginal" defense, that's not necessary, all I want to add is that I've seen plenty of ethnic minority and race prejudice close-up in my 64 years on this planet. And I have plenty of grist for the mill in that regard.
 

mccardey

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High time to show a little grace, I'd have thought - the tantrums about this are extraordinary. Yes, there are people on the planet who don't belong to the privileged (often white) middle class. Yes, sometimes they want to be able to tell their own stories. No, this doesn't mean the privileged (often white) middle class will never ever be able to write again. No, it doesn't mean that the right to write anything is being stolen. It means it's being claimed by other people as well. High time, I say.
 
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Roxxsmom

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In a novel, you should use the terms for people and entities that the viewpoint character would use. It's down to your skills as a writer to get across that any attitudes or opinions expressed are the characters' not yours. However, you should also do your homework and understand what is sensitive these days and why. And show the actual effects of these attitudes and opinions in action, not by preaching about them, but by showing what they do to people. Some people will be bothered by certain words and expressions, regardless of context, and they may have very good reasons for it. Decide if the story you want to tell needs these elements to work and feel authentic.

As for cultural appropriation? That's a bit different from cultures exchanging elements with each other. With each other implies it's done with mutual consent, or at least that it's done mutually, between two cultures of equal influence or power. Cultural appropriation occurs when a dominant or colonizing culture takes things from other cultures as the dominant power chooses, often with no understanding or appreciation of the history or context or meaning of the element to the culture it's taken from. And they tend to do this while imposing their own cultural norms or traditions upon the exploited culture (whether they wish it or not). Dreamcatcher rear view mirror ornaments, or "sexy Indian" costumes, come to mind here (in a world where Native Americans were, until recently, forbidden from expressing their own cultures or even speaking their own languages, so many traditions and languages have been lost to memory), or books that claim to celebrate another culture when they actually present a bunch of stereotypes or very superficial treatment of the people involved.

No one can, or should, forbid you from doing anything you wish in your stories, but nothing can stop readers from criticizing what they think are crude or ineffective portrayals of other cultures or traditions either. If you've got lots of friends and relatives who are of the culture you want to portray, then you shouldn't have any problems finding some beta readers who can offer feedback about whether or not you've done a good job.
 

Odile_Blud

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No. Don't give up. I say, write it. The beauty about art (writing included) is being able to express your views, ideas, and creativity. Some of the greatest art is controversial. Art should challenge us. Art should make us think. In trying to please everybody, we wind up stumping ourselves. We don't get to tell the story, we wanted to tell, and at the end of the day, you can't please everyone. You just have to tell your story. If this a project you really want to work on, a story you really want to tell, do it. Politics should have no say so in art.

Your art is your voice and you have a right to express it.
 
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mccardey

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So why should Native Americans be exempt? Yes, our ancestors robbed the native people's of their land and killed them in the process. Our ancestors did horrible things I know, but what do we do now? Is it right to punish those living now for the sins of their forefathers?
I would think it's an act of grace to make restitution whenever it's in one's power. If First People are still in a place of disadvantage, then a bit of affirmative action might be very useful. And lets note that in a large part we're discussing Not Continuing To Take Their Stuff (their stories, and voices and identities) as affirmative action - like it's a special thing that they're forcing on us unfairly. There's unfair and there's Unfair, yanno? History is full of unfair as you say - this time it's operating in a teeny, tiny way against Privilege.

I'm okay with that.
 
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kaylim

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It sounds like human history to me. What culture has not taken from other cultures? Who still lives on the land of their ancestors? Apparently all of our ancestors came from Africa and now we are spread across the globe conquering and reconquering lands. In similar ways Israel thinks they have the right to take back ancient land that they once owned in the Bible, yet they stole their land from the Canaanites. It is hard to say who originally owned the land first.

Not only do we steal land, but we have stolen other people's cultures through the millennia and adopted them into our own since the beginning of time. Our language is a mixture of different languages, our art is a mixture of different cultural influences and so is our music. So why should Native Americans be exempt? Yes, our ancestors robbed the native people's of their land and killed them in the process. Our ancestors did horrible things I know, but what do we do now? Is it right to punish those living now for the sins of their forefathers? Do we start by removing native words and copied artwork from our own culture? Should we tread lightly as if on eggshells careful not to copy anything that may or not have been native American in origin? Where does it end? How how back through history can we take this?

I feel for the plight of those suffering at the hands of oppressors, no matter what race they happen to be, but political correctness just seems to me to be an overcompensation for guilt directed in the wrong way. I don't see anything wrong in adopting language, art, and myths into the evolving culture of modern day society. This has always been what we are as a people. I think if we want to help those are oppressed, then we give them the tools to succeed, raise them out of poverty, and go after and punish those who would oppress them economically.

I think you're right about a lot this but there are still examples of native americans getting screwed. Just look at the Dakota Pipeline. They were going to route that through a white neighborhood and the white neighborhood refused so instead it was going to go through a reservation and those people have been subjected to terrible crimes so...

sorry for the derail btw. more on topic, I think you should just try to write with sensitivity but with honesty. Just make sure you do your research.
 

andiwrite

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How has it gone too far? Who is preventing it?

People are offended over EVERYTHING these days. I think it's ridiculous. But you're right, no one is preventing, nor should they. I always encourage people to creatively express themselves in whatever way they see fit. Trying to avoid offending people is pointless anyway. You could spend weeks researching and create the most sensitively written story ever, and it would still piss someone off.
 

JJ Litke

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...there are still examples of native americans getting screwed. Just look at the Dakota Pipeline. They were going to route that through a white neighborhood and the white neighborhood refused so instead it was going to go through a reservation and those people have been subjected to terrible crimes so...

This, exactly. If your perspective is that you shouldn't be held responsible for what your ancestors did, as if it's not still happening, you're too ignorant to write about the subject.
 

lizmonster

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I've seen a lot of cases of books that have been published that contained either really awful stereotypes, or flat-out problematic storylines. I have a hard time believing that (e.g.) a white person writing PoC in a novel is going to have trouble publishing it for that reason.

And of course I can't prove a negative. But based on what does get published - if your characters have more than one dimension, I'm guessing you're not going to get tossed onto the slush because you don't match their demographic.

White writers publishing books containing diverse casts are not an endangered species, and aren't in danger of becoming one. There are so many, many reasons to rail at the injustices of publishing - but wow, this isn't one of them.
 

Jan74

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As a fellow Canadian struggling with this issue, I can predict a few scenarios.
1. You publish, the book does amazingly well it's a hit and you must grow thick tough skin and be prepared for the political shit storm that WILL follow with a great success, they will say it's not your story to tell and media circus will follow. Find a cave and wait it out. Or throw on cape and state it's freedom of speech.
2. You publish, it barley registers and only a few people mumble about it.
3. You don't publish, nobody knows what you've written.
4. You publish, with the backing of the first nations people you are writing about and give credit for your sources and make your work a collaboration and most will be happy, media will be mixed regarding Cultural Appropriation.
As a proud Canadian this is what my crystal ball has shown me :) the magic 8 ball shows #4 is your best option.
 
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Helix

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People are offended over EVERYTHING these days. I think it's ridiculous. But you're right, no one is preventing, nor should they. I always encourage people to creatively express themselves in whatever way they see fit. Trying to avoid offending people is pointless anyway. You could spend weeks researching and create the most sensitively written story ever, and it would still piss someone off.

People certainly seem to be offended by other people asking for some respect. That causes endless complaints.
 

Hublocker

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What is POC?



I've seen a lot of cases of books that have been published that contained either really awful stereotypes, or flat-out problematic storylines. I have a hard time believing that (e.g.) a white person writing PoC in a novel is going to have trouble publishing it for that reason.

And of course I can't prove a negative. But based on what does get published - if your characters have more than one dimension, I'm guessing you're not going to get tossed onto the slush because you don't match their demographic.

White writers publishing books containing diverse casts are not an endangered species, and aren't in danger of becoming one. There are so many, many reasons to rail at the injustices of publishing - but wow, this isn't one of them.
 

lizmonster

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What is POC?

People of color (non-white folks).

What does it have to do with "everyone knowing their place?" EVERYONE should be free to write about whatever the hell they want.

They certainly are. And people are free to call them on it if they think the content is problematic.
 

Hublocker

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Well this book has two FN characters, a lot of FN place names and fish names.

A large part of the the whole narrative is the local FN community's opposition to oil tanker traffic in their territory.

And another FN community's warm welcome to it.

Did you know the Tsimshian word for seagull is gaguum?

I'll betcha nobody here even knows what or where Tsimshian is without looking it up.

Dried sheets of seaweed is siidzm la'ask.


As a fellow Canadian struggling with this issue, I can predict a few scenarios.
1. You publish, the book does amazingly well it's a hit and you must grow thick tough skin and be prepared for the political shit storm that WILL follow with a great success, they will say it's not your story to tell and media circus will follow. Find a cave and wait it out. Or throw on cape and state it's freedom of speech.
2. You publish, it barley registers and only a few people mumble about it.
3. You don't publish, nobody knows what you've written.
4. You publish, with the backing of the first nations people you are writing about and give credit for your sources and make your work a collaboration and most will be happy, media will be mixed regarding Cultural Appropriation.
As a proud Canadian this is what my crystal ball has shown me :) the magic 8 ball shows #4 is your best option.
 
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mccardey

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What does it have to do with "everyone knowing their place?" EVERYONE should be free to write about whatever the hell they want.
Historically, that's a fairly new standpoint, and it's still very privileged. A lot of the people who have had their stories and voices appropriated were not in a position to write, and if they were there was almost no chance their version would be preferred over the more privileged, louder, and yes, freer-to-write mob. Which has been traditionally, in my country at least, white, educated, middle-class and male.

That other voices have reached a position from which they can be heard demanding the right to reclaim their stories and voices might feel like a terrible injustice to some. It really isn't.
 
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