Commas for Pauses vs Commas for Grammatical Correctness

paperwinged

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I'm a grammar nerd. If two independent clauses are being joined, they better be joined by a comma and a coordinating conjunction. If a dependent clause is followed by an independent clause, there better be a comma between them. I know where commas belong, and in my own writing, I tend to employ them with precision. When they're not used correctly (or not used at all), I notice, and I find it distracting.

However...

We also use commas to indicate where the pauses are in a sentence. This is especially significant for dialogue. Sometimes, we might want to place a comma where it's not technically needed to add a pause. We might also want to omit a comma where one technically belongs because we don't mean for the reader to pause there. (When I say "we," I mean writers in general. As a grammar junkie, I don't do it because it makes me sad, but I understand that it is a thing.)

Also, even in published books, commas sometimes just get thrown in or omitted, and there doesn't seem to be any reason at all.

My question is, where are you on the spectrum?

Are you like me? Do you expect commas to be placed with textbook precision?

Do you forgive unnecessary or omitted commas as long as they seem to be intended for effect (pause)?

Or, do you think commas are more of an art than a science, and they should be placed by feeling rather than by understanding grammar?

I'm wondering all this because I'm new to critiquing, and I find myself spending more time adding and omitting commas than anything, and I wonder if this is a waste of time. Am I the only one who cares?
 

cornflake

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I'm a grammar nerd. If two independent clauses are being joined, they better be joined by a comma and a coordinating conjunction. Or other appropriate punctuation.

If a dependent clause is followed by an independent clause, there better be a comma between them. I know where commas belong, and in my own writing, I tend to employ them with precision. When they're not used correctly (or not used at all), I notice, and I find it distracting. You're not using them correctly.

However...

We also use commas to indicate where the pauses are in a sentence. No, we do not. This is a common elementary school instruction meant to simplify a concept that, like many such things, has actually caused confusion. You pause for commas, you don't place commas to indicate a pause.This is especially significant for dialogue. Sometimes, we might want to place a comma where it's not technically needed to add a pause. Careful with that 'we.' We might also want to omit a comma where one technically belongs because we don't mean for the reader to pause there. (When I say "we," I mean writers in general. As a grammar junkie, I don't do it because it makes me sad, but I understand that it is a thing.) Not a thing over here, sorry.

Also, even in published books, commas sometimes just get thrown in or omitted, and there doesn't seem to be any reason at all. There is likely a reason.

My question is, where are you on the spectrum?

Are you like me? Do you expect commas to be placed with textbook precision?

Do you forgive unnecessary or omitted commas as long as they seem to be intended for effect (pause)?

Or, do you think commas are more of an art than a science, and they should be placed by feeling rather than by understanding grammar?

I'm wondering all this because I'm new to critiquing, and I find myself spending more time adding and omitting commas than anything, and I wonder if this is a waste of time. Am I the only one who cares?

I care; but I'd suggest you might want to read up on comma usage. ;)
 

paperwinged

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I guess I misspoke when I said that they are used for pauses. I didn't mean that they should be. I meant that some people do, and some might consider it acceptable.

However, I would strongly beg to differ against the statement that I'm using them incorrectly.
If a dependent clause is followed by an independent clause, there better be a comma between them.
Dependent clause followed by independent clause.

I know where commas belong, and in my own writing, I tend to employ them with precision.
A simple sentence being joined with a complex sentence (to form a compound-complex) accounts for the first comma.
A dependent clause followed by an independent clause accounts for the second.

When they're not used correctly (or not used at all), I notice, and I find it distracting.
A dependent clause joined with an independent clause to form a complex sentence accounts for the first comma.
A complex sentence joined with a simple sentence (to form a compound-complex) accounts for the second.

Perhaps we were taught differently?
 
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AW Admin

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I guess I misspoke when I said that they are used for pauses. I didn't mean that they should be. I meant that some people do, and some might consider it acceptable.

However, I would strongly beg to differ against the statement that I'm using them incorrectly.

Dependent clause followed by independent clause.


A simple sentence being joined with a complex sentence (to form a compound-complex) accounts for the first comma.
A dependent clause followed by an independent clause accounts for the second.


A dependent clause joined with an independent clause to form a complex sentence accounts for the first comma.
A complex sentence joined with a simple sentence (to form a compound-complex) accounts for the second.

Perhaps we were taught differently?

Two independent clauses (clauses that could be independent sentences) can be joined by a semicolon.

Ideally, writers use a semicolon to join two independent clauses that are not joined by a coordinating conjunction (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so), and that are closely related semantically.

See:
How to Use a Semicolon from The Oatmeal (not perfect, but not terrible, either)

Semicolon: Oxford Dictionary
 

cornflake

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I guess I misspoke when I said that they are used for pauses. I didn't mean that they should be. I meant that some people do, and some might consider it acceptable.

However, I would strongly beg to differ against the statement that I'm using them incorrectly.

Dependent clause followed by independent clause.


A simple sentence being joined with a complex sentence (to form a compound-complex) accounts for the first comma.
A dependent clause followed by an independent clause accounts for the second.


A dependent clause joined with an independent clause to form a complex sentence accounts for the first comma.
A complex sentence joined with a simple sentence (to form a compound-complex) accounts for the second.

Perhaps we were taught differently?

Apparently so.

You seem to believe a comma belongs at every junction. That's not the case.

Also, because it's driving me mad and you started the grammar conversation, 'they/there better?'
 

AW Admin

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I'm just going to link to some things about Skitt's Law AKA Harman's Law

And note that my in-house proofreader removes my excess commas and hoards them; I remove her excess em-dashes.
 

Jack Judah

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I'm a notorious user and abuser of commas. Punctuation in general, actually. Grammar too. There's a time and place for precise and perfect writing. Way I see it, all those little squiggles are tools in the box. Tools we should all know how to use properly. Most of the time they should be used as they were intended. But there's nothing to stop you from occasionally (key word being occasionally) breaking the rules and using them for effect. Like, for example, the dreaded comma splice. I use it often. Some people are driven to tear their hair out by that fact. Others never notice. In the end, I reckon it comes down to that old saw about it being ok to break the rules long as you know the rules you're breaking. At least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
 
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paperwinged

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You seem to believe a comma belongs at every junction. That's not the case.

My understanding is that it depends on where you view the parallel structures to be. Looking at one of my examples, I think the way I have it could be considered correct, but one of the commas could also be correctly omitted.

I'm also now realizing there may be more I don't know. Going back to those comma reference books now.

Also, because it's driving me mad and you started the grammar conversation, 'they/there better?'

Y'know, as in, "Ya better clean your room or else!" Not really sure if that can be broken down grammatically or if it's just slang that I never thought about. Huh. Looks like I opened myself up to that one. Good call.



Also, yes, I am aware that semi-colons exist. (Blush) I forgot about them because I write YA, and I find it strange to use them when a teenager is speaking. I tend to just opt for the period.


Still, the conversation stands. How much do y'all care about commas??
 

cornflake

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You had better clean your room.

There had better be a better sentence than this one someplace.

I just looked -- OED considers 'there better,' a colloquialism.
 
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Helix

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I'd punctuate this:

I know where commas belong, and in my own writing, I tend to employ them with precision.

like this:

I know where commas belong and, in my own writing, I tend to employ them with precision.

But I could well be wrong.

I almost certainly wouldn't write it as a single sentence.
 

SKStark

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I'm a notorious user and abuser of commas. Punctuation in general, actually. Grammar too. There's a time and place for precise and perfect writing. Way I see it, all those little squiggles are tools in the box. Tools we should all know how to use properly. Most of the time they should be used as they were intended. But there's nothing to stop you from occasionally (key word being occasionally) breaking the rules and using them for effect. Like, for example, the dreaded comma splice. I use it often. Some people are driven to tear their hair out by that fact. Others never notice. In the end, I reckon it comes down to that old saw about it being ok to break the rules long as you know the rules you're breaking. At least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

Agreed. I think there is a lot more leeway in fiction than in technical writing and non-fiction. There are hard rules, which is a good thing, but I don't remember the last time I read a novel that was completely fragment-free. Punctuation is a little different from grammar, I'll grant, but I guess I just think that if a particular reading rhythm strengthens a scene, writers get to play god a little (but only lowercase "g").

That said, the Oxford comma should ALWAYS be used. My biggest pet peeve. :)
 

paperwinged

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I see now that I 100% asked for this to be a "Roast my grammar!" thread. No sarcasm intended. That is effectively what I've done. :roll: I'm not mad. Carry on. Can you tell I'm new to forums? :Shrug:


Also, yes, I agree with the answers above. I think erring on the side of precision is good, but a little bit of leeway can be given in fiction. I hate using that leeway, but I also write in first-person, and I find myself asking, "Would my punk-ass character REALLY phrase it this way?"
 

Ari Meermans

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I'm just going to link to some things about Skitt's Law AKA Harman's Law

And note that my in-house proofreader removes my excess commas and hoards them; I remove her excess em-dashes.

I hate all commas (excepting the serial or Oxford comma) and I never use 'em when an em-dash will do. Commas like to run amok and reproduce indiscriminately. just sayin'

As a side note: I'm old school wrt semicolons in dialogue, which is to say I don't like 'em.
 

mccardey

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I see now that I 100% asked for this to be a "Roast my grammar!" thread. No sarcasm intended. That is effectively what I've done. :roll: I'm not mad. Carry on. Can you tell I'm new to forums? :Shrug:

Welcome to the forums. This thread has made my day :)
 

Earthling

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I notice misplaced commas like big red splotches in the text. Trying to read something covered in big red splotches isn't easy or pleasurable. I always beg authors not to abuse commas for "style".

I also want to shake all the teachers telling kids to use a comma to indicate a pause. So many adults still believe it.
 

Bacchus

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This thread reminds me of a song by Culture Club in the early eighties.

,,,,, chame-leon
 

Bufty

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Deliberately pausing for breath at every comma or period could sound extremely odd. "Hello, Mrs. Brown," said Mr. Pender, courteously holding the door open.

And I would ask those who may use commas to indicate pauses, how is a reader to know whether any particular comma is intended to create a pause or not? Context and content are far superior indicators of how a sentence should be read.

Welcome, paperwinged. :welcome: At the bottom left of every page is a site specific Google Custom Search box - Enter 'commas for pauses' -or any other phrase you choose - and see what happens. That useful tool can help one spot topics that may have been well-covered over the years.
 
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Lakey

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I hate using that leeway, but I also write in first-person, and I find myself asking, "Would my punk-ass character REALLY phrase it this way?"

I have to suppose that voice trumps just about everything else. If your punk-ass character's narration reads like Alistair Cooke introducing Masterpiece Theater, you're probably adhering unnecessarily slavishly to prescriptive rules. Your story should read the way your punk-ass character should tell it.

I have been rereading The Handmaid's Tale (like everyone else; I don't want to watch the show but the general discourse about it made me pull down my copy of the book) and I have noticed that it is full of comma splices and sentence fragments. I mean, FULL of them. They are a huge part of what gives the narration its distinctive rhythm and voice.
 

BethS

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My question is, where are you on the spectrum?

For prose, I tend to follow the rules and hope other writers do the same, because when they don't, it's distracting.

For dialogue, I follow the rules unless there's a reason not to. Dialogue is its own special universe, and sometimes you definitely do want to fiddle with punctuation to create the right cadence and delivery.
 

Yzjdriel

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erring on the side of precision

There is no such thing. You can err on the side of accuracy, though, and I can safely assume that's what you meant.

Accuracy is how close you are to being correct. Precision is reproducibility. If I go to a firing range and shoot ten bullets, all of which land within a 1cm circle that is 15cm from the center of the target, I am inaccurate, but incredibly precise.

Congratulations on waking up the Dictionary Nazi that lives inside my inner Grammar Nazi; that doesn't happen all that often.



On the subject of commas, one should never ever EVER use them to denote pauses. There are better ways to do that.

If you want to place inflection in dialogue to make the reader stress or pause on certain words, employ boldface and/or italicized text.
 
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meaghangray

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I'd punctuate this:



like this:

I know where commas belong and, in my own writing, I tend to employ them with precision.

But I could well be wrong.

I almost certainly wouldn't write it as a single sentence.

I agree with you on this edit, but I've seen a lot of published fiction that would deliver it "I know where commas belong and in my own writing I tend to employ them with precision." I've seen commas practically eliminated a lot lately (particularly in the Redwall series, which is a British children's series, for reference).
 

BethS

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On the subject of commas, one should never, ever, EVER use them to denote pauses. There are better ways to do that.

There may be different ways to do that (the ellipsis, for instance), but in dialogue (<--note the stress there), the comma can sometimes be used to add a slight check in the delivery of a line, where an ellipsis or a period would be too much.

If you want to place inflection in dialogue to make the reader stress or pause on certain words, employ boldface and/or italicized text.

Not boldface (not in fiction), but italics can be used occasionally to indicate a stressed word. Very occasionally. Nothing is more annoying than reading dialogue where the characters are always emphasizing this word or that.
 
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mccardey

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I just can't. There's just something about righteous indignation about the "proper" use of commas that digs under my skin like a hungry tick in search of an easy blood meal on a sultry summer day.

You prolly need to get over that. OP has already re-evaluated.