Let's Be Culture Shocked--Differences in Dialects, Culture, & History

Old Hack

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Sian can be a pretty name.

But in Singapore, it's an expression for saying "I'm sick of life" or "bored of this shit". Some examples of how "sian" is used:

Life so sian sia

Sian eh, got to do this shit

("Sia" is also another expression. But more of a way to end sentences or clauses like "eh" than to mean something)

The name and the expression are pronounced a little differently, though. I believe the name's more like see-ann? And the expression's more of a one-word syllable with a downward hard intonation.

Personally, I'm getting more used to Sian as a name now, but when I first saw it my eyes went O_O, hehe.

I'm familiar with Sian as a Welsh name. My Welsh grandparents told me it was the Welsh equivalent of Jane (my first name). Sian isn't pronounced as you've suggested: it starts with a soft Sh sound, and rhymes with arm. So, Sh-arrr-n. Only not all drawn out like that! And the Sh sound does slide towards a very soft J sound, too. (Does that make any sense at all?) My grandparents used to sometimes call me Siany-bach, or Siany-vach. Happy memories.

I've seen 'turned around and said', but never in the context of someone disagreeing or trying to thwart another person. Whenever I've seen 'turned around and said', the people literally, physically, turn around to look the other person in the eye. That's a really interesting SE England uses the phrase in a metaphorically belligerent-way.

It's not just used like that in SE England: I live in Yorkshire now, and it's used in the same way here.


Code-switching — Many people are comfortable with multiple dialects of a given language, or multipe languages, and can switch between them at need/will

This is my husband. When he's with me he's almost RP (as I am). But he was born and brought up near Chesterfield, in Derbyshire, and when he speaks to his parents he slips into broad Derbyshire, full of ey-oop and grand as owt. He doesn't even realise. It's very funny.
 

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I grew up in Ohio, which has has three different accents just in the state. There's the Great Lakes accent (technically called "Inland North";hard nasal tones with vowel shifts) and Appalachia (pronounced APP-ah-LATCH-ah; Southern accent but different than coastal southern or the Deep South). Everyone else (that's me!) just has that flat, lightly-nasal American accent. The generic accent that shows up on national newscasts, we have the closest thing to it. (Pittsburgh is nearby too, so I actually understood some of amergina's Pittsburgh dialect without translation, because I've heard it before.)

It means those of us not in the Great Lakes/Appalachia have an interesting mish-mash of words that aren't always consistent. It's pop (but we're aware what soda is), and water comes out of a faucet (but sometimes a tap). Route can be said as "rowt" or "root." "Wash" can sometimes be "warsh," depending on where you are.

But, don't think we don't have weird habits of our own. For some reason, we have a habit of adding an S (or a possessive, maybe?) to store names. One of the local grocery stores is "Kroger's" instead of Kroger, for instance. This habit isn't always consistent, but we do it when it feels right. We also tend to describe distances in terms of how long it takes to get some where. (Cleveland? That's about an hour away.)
 

neandermagnon

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That is dialect. However, if you're discussing the footie game in RP with your peers, you're likely to be using a different register when you commiserate with a stranger about the death of a loved one, even in RP.

Even in RP, there's casual and formal differentiations; those are registers. (My first linguistics classes were in the UK; in Derby).

:Thumbs: Agreed.
In Irish (Gaelic) there's a thing called lenition (this is a kind of mutation), where the spelling of a word can change based on syntax; t lenites to th, but the h is just a signal that "this word is in the genitive," for instance, and it isn't pronounced (some mutations are pronounced).

That's really interesting. :Thumbs:

I've only ever known one person who speaks Irish as a first language*, and he insisted it's called Irish and not Gaelic. I can't remember what reason he gave (if any). I don't know whether that was just his opinion or it's a more widespread opinion.

*though thinking about it, other Irish friends may have done and never told me. This guy was very into languages and taught English and Irish.


On the th as f thing; this is called th-fronting, and it's a known phenomena in terms of looking at linguistic drift.

That article is fascinating. Thanks for posting it.

I'm really surprised at how far it's spread... Hull, wow! It's definitely not a Yorkshire thing (with their thee thy and tha... albeit that these are not in most Yorkshire accents).

The gender split thing surprised me at first, then it didn't. I think it comes from a combination of inverse snobbery, homophobia and anti-intellectualism. Some working class people associate the RP accent in men with being gay. Only men. (Stereotypes of gay women are completely different.) My first response to your register example above of people talking about the footie in RP was a mental image of them doing this on the stands at a Millwall game and worrying that they're going to get beaten up.

In state schools, there's a problem with "anti-boff" culture and high levels of underachievement in working class boys (which isn't the case for working class girls). This comes from a toxic definition of masculinity and a culture among teenage boys where working hard and doing well at school is likely to get you bullied. This doesn't affect girls anything like as much.

When it comes to th-fronting and the spread of Estuary English generally, this would affect middle class boys from families where maybe RP is spoken at home but the parents can't afford to send them to private school so they go to state school instead, where they're faced with this combination of anti-boff culture, homophobia and reverse classism, so there's a massive amount of peer pressure to lose the RP accent ASAP for boys, but not for girls.

Teachers are doing a lot to try to change this (and all homophobia and all kinds of bullying) and it's a big issue in UK schools. The Times Education Supplement probably has a ton of articles about anti-boff culture.

Also, I don't think that this is the only factor in the spread of Estuary. I think there's also the fact that people from different social classes mix much more than in the past and in many ways barriers between social classes are eroding, which is a good thing.


In the late 1400s Dartmouth was so well-known/notorious in terms of piracy that Chaucer makes snarky comments about it in his bit about the Shipman in the Prologue to Canterbury Tales:


And then this bit follows, about "walking the plank"

That is also fascinating.

Yesterday I watched a video on you tube which suggested that the Devon accent is associated with farming while the Cornwall accent is associated with seafaring and pirates. That's not anything I've come across, (and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Devon and Cornwall accent anyway, because I'm from too far away) but it's obviously an association that some people recognise. Cornwall has a lot of coast, being right on the end of the South-West Peninsula, so it's not that surprising really.
 

neandermagnon

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This is my husband. When he's with me he's almost RP (as I am). But he was born and brought up near Chesterfield, in Derbyshire, and when he speaks to his parents he slips into broad Derbyshire, full of ey-oop and grand as owt. He doesn't even realise. It's very funny.

I do code switching, not usually consciously. Mostly I'd say it's going up and down the Estuary spectrum, i.e. from a posher version of Estuary to a much more Cockney version. I can't do full RP and I don't think I ever really speak full Cockney (plus I was born way too far from Bow Bells*). When I used to work on the phones at my day job, I'm sure whoever did the call monitoring ("calls are recorded for quality and training purposes" - i.e. someone randomly selects a percentage of your calls and listens to them to check you're not swearing at mortgage brokers and the like) had a laugh at some of my calls. So as usual I answer the phone with the correct company script, in a not-quite-RP-but-I-pronounce-my-t's-h's-and-th's accent, then there's a Cockney broker on the other end of the line, at which point my accent goes right to the Cockney end of the Estuary scale.

*unless you have really, really, really good hearing :greenie

Also, on account of spending some of my early childhood in Liverpool and Yorkshire, prolonged exposure to these accents can cause my accent to change without any conscious control over it whatsoever. Much to the amusement of my London friends.
 

Albedo

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Also, on account of spending some of my early childhood in Liverpool and Yorkshire, prolonged exposure to these accents can cause my accent to change without any conscious control over it whatsoever. Much to the amusement of my London friends.
This is quite common, I think. Whenever I catch up with one of my old friends from the UK I find myself unconsciously imitating his accent and speech patterns, to my mortification when I realise.
 

neandermagnon

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But, don't think we don't have weird habits of our own. For some reason, we have a habit of adding an S (or a possessive, maybe?) to store names. One of the local grocery stores is "Kroger's" instead of Kroger, for instance. This habit isn't always consistent, but we do it when it feels right. We also tend to describe distances in terms of how long it takes to get some where. (Cleveland? That's about an hour away.)

That happens here too (not sure how widespread in the UK though). Tesco is probably called Tesco's way more often than it's called Tesco. The shop itself is called Tesco. Whereas Sainsbury's has 's as part of the official shop name and is never said Sainsbury. And Morrisons is only ever Morrisons and the shop logo does not have an apostrophe (but should, because it was founded by Mr Morrison). And Asda, Lidl and Aldi usually get pronounced just as they are, but I have heard Asda's and Aldi's as well, albeit less often.
 

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That article is fascinating. Thanks for posting it.

I'm really surprised at how far it's spread... Hull, wow! It's definitely not a Yorkshire thing (with their thee thy and tha... albeit that these are not in most Yorkshire accents).

In Yorkshire, Derbyshire and other places where there's a pronounced Northern English accent it's common to use t' instead of "the", which seems to me to be a similar thing to the th-fronting. So my parents in law will say, "went down to t' shops" (where the "to t' " bit sounds like, "tut", with a very neutral "u" sound and a very hard stop at the end of it, before "shops"). I've lived in Yorkshire for twenty years and although I've not got much of the accent this is one thing I still can't say right: I can't get the rhythm of it at all. Something's off. And I usually have quite a good ear for these things.

This comes from a toxic definition of masculinity and a culture among teenage boys where working hard and doing well at school is likely to get you bullied. This doesn't affect girls anything like as much.

I've never heard of "anti-boff".

From my sons' experience at school I'd say the reverse is true: girls do get bullied for working hard, while boys who work their socks off and do well get praised for it.
 

neandermagnon

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I've never heard of "anti-boff".

From my sons' experience at school I'd say the reverse is true: girls do get bullied for working hard, while boys who work their socks off and do well get praised for it.

"anti-boff" is what they called it when I was doing teacher training. I did my teacher training in Wales but also heard it called the same thing when working in the South East (I worked at schools in Essex and Kent - in poor, working class parts of these counties).

Also, I didn't mean to imply that girls never get bullied for working hard or boys never get praised for it. However in my experience as a student at school, while there was a general trend of anti-intellectualism, i.e. stigma of being a "teacher's pet", it was more socially acceptable (among students/peer pressure) for girls to get good grades than for boys. My experience in teaching also supports it too, in spite of teaching a subject (science) that's supposed to be more appealing to boys (not that I agree with such stereotyping).

In extreme cases, there are teachers who've had to give fake detentions to boys to get them to do any work, i.e. the "detention" gives the boy the prestige in front of his mates, while also giving him an opportunity to hide the fact he's actually doing the work. That is the extent of peer pressure in some schools. (This was before there was any widespread thing among teachers to tackle the issue.)

It's also very much a working class thing - traditionally, middle class boys had more pressure to be like the kid who's top in all subjects and also the captain of the rugby team. And when you compare the statistics (i.e. level of achievement in schools), white middle class boys are among the higher achievers (albeit not the actual highest achievers), while white working class boys are the lowest achievers. (When we looked at the stats in teacher training, they were the lowest of all ethnic/socioeconomic groups.) This disparity was not seen to anything like this extent among girls, i.e. while white working class girls achieved less than white middle class girls, the difference between them was nowhere near as pronounced. Having seen the statistics, teachers looked for reasons why, and it appears to come down to what I described in the previous post, i.e. a huge amount of peer pressure on working class boys to not achieve (not just white working class boys... but the stats were broken down by both social class and ethnicity. A big disparity between boys and girls in other ethnic groups e.g. Afro-Carribean was also seen).

That said, I did my teacher training over ten years ago and there has been a lot of intense effort by teachers to prevent this kind of thing from going on in schools. I would like to think that these endeavors are working and that they've succeeded at least to some extent in enabling working class boys to achieve without being bullied or stigmatised. I no longer teach (ridiculous workloads that are completely incompatible with being a single parent) so I can't say what's going on in schools right now.
 
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Just a quick note: when I came to Colorado from the South, I noticed some people dropping the "t" from "think": "I hink I will go to the movies tonight". I never noticed it in other "th" words.
 

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Just a quick note: when I came to Colorado from the South, I noticed some people dropping the "t" from "think": "I hink I will go to the movies tonight". I never noticed it in other "th" words.

I live in Colorado, and have never heard that particular pronunciation. People here mostly talk like the evening news anchors.
 

benbenberi

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Yeah but if they were upper class they wouldn't have spoken in a West Country accent. They would've spoken in the accent of the wealthy classes. The West Country accent is the accent of the poor in the region - mainly farmers as its traditionally very rural.

But in the 16c the West Country gentry would have spoken with the same accent as their poor neighbors. There was not a distinctive upper-class accent across England till the 18c, when the wealthy started sending their sons to the same schools and the accent they learned at school became a social marker, not just regional. The 18-19c was also when RP & other central English accents acquired their modern features, which is why places where the major English colonization occurred earlier than that (notably North America) have a very different regional baseline than those (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa) where most of the English immigration occurred later & the immigrants brought their up-to-date accents with them.
 

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Ireland has a surprising variety of accents for such a small island. The Northern Irish accent sounds similar to the Scottish one. The Cork accent has a similar up-and-down lilt to Wales (I think it's a coincidence that both areas are mountainous). Dublin manages to have two distinct accents: the working-class Northside (as heard in The Commitments) and the posher Southside accent. See here for examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee_N3g4ORLk

My accent became flattened out from living abroad and working for international companies. Interestingly, the most common mistake people make is to think I'm Canadian. They seldom specify which part of Canada, but the Newfoundland accent sounds really Irish, which is no coincidence because a lot of its early settlers were Irish fishermen. Newfoundlanders even seem to have inherited some of the Irish phraseology, such as "sleveen" (a sly person) and "I'm after doing that" (I've just done that).
 

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But in the 16c the West Country gentry would have spoken with the same accent as their poor neighbors. There was not a distinctive upper-class accent across England till the 18c, when the wealthy started sending their sons to the same schools and the accent they learned at school became a social marker, not just regional. The 18-19c was also when RP & other central English accents acquired their modern features, which is why places where the major English colonization occurred earlier than that (notably North America) have a very different regional baseline than those (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa) where most of the English immigration occurred later & the immigrants brought their up-to-date accents with them.

That's really interesting. Thanks for explaning. :)
 

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I'm American, but have been living in other countries for the past decade, and my language has changed due to being surrounded by Europeans who speak "British English." For example, I used to call my post-secondary school education "college", but since some of my colleagues from other places say "college" for secondary school, I now say "university", which is clear to everyone. I now call soccer fields "football pitches" for the same reason, and have caught myself referring to my apartment as a "flat" (because that's what everyone around me does).
 

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my language has changed due to being surrounded by Europeans who speak "British English."

SCENE: Watching a British TV show with several friends.

CHARACTER (walks into convenience store): "Gimme a 20-pack of the cheapest fags you got."

EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM LOOKS AT ME.

ME: "Excuse me. I'll own 'cheap' but I don't roam in packs of 20. I prefer to work alone."

END SCENE
 

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SCENE: Watching a British TV show with several friends.

CHARACTER (walks into convenience store): "Gimme a 20-pack of the cheapest fags you got."

EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM LOOKS AT ME.

ME: "Excuse me. I'll own 'cheap' but I don't roam in packs of 20. I prefer to work alone."

END SCENE

:) Love it.

Sometimes I still start a bit when a student announces that he needs a rubber.
 

neandermagnon

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ETA: reply to Emily's post... the other posts weren't there when I started typing

College and secondary school aren't usually the same thing. Also, I thought secondary school itself is a British term, never heard an American use it before.

In England, secondary school is either year 7-13 (age 11-18) or year 7-11. Year 12 and 13 are part of either secondary school or 6th form college depending on whether it's a separate college just for 6th form (year 12 and 13 is called 6th form for historical reasons) or part of a year 1-13 secondary school. There's also technical college, which you can do after year 11 as an alternative to years 12 and 13, but it's for more job related training courses such as training to be an electrician or something. Technical colleges also offer higher level qualifications that are equivalent to university degrees (or part of one) in more technical/vocational roles, i.e. for people who are university rather than 6th form age, while university offers academic courses after 6th form. I have heard of secondary schools being called colleges as part of their name, while not technically speaking being actual colleges. Most of these are probably now academies (which is a secondary school that's not run by the local council).

Wales is mostly like England, while Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own systems that I'm not familiar with at all. There is a national curriculum though, so each year group in England has an equivalent in Scotland, they're just named differently. You still learn the same things at the same age throughout the UK. Please take my post as being just for England, and quite possibly not the whole of England because local education authorities occasionally do something a bit different, like having a middle school system instead of the more usual primary school (reception - year 6) secondary school (year 7 - 11 or 13) system.

So anyway, in England, secondary school and college aren't the same thing, but there can be some overlap with 6th form colleges.
 
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neandermagnon

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:) Love it.

Sometimes I still start a bit when a student announces that he needs a rubber.

And when Americans talk about fanny packs... :greenie



Full disclosure: fits of childish giggling
 
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EmilyEmily

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College and secondary school aren't usually the same thing. Also, I thought secondary school itself is a British term, never heard an American use it before.

In England, secondary school is either year 7-13 (age 11-18) or year 7-11. Year 12 and 13 are part of either secondary school or 6th form college depending on whether it's a separate college just for 6th form (year 12 and 13 is called 6th form for historical reasons) or part of a year 1-13 secondary school. There's also technical college, which you can do after year 11 as an alternative to years 12 and 13, but it's for more job related training courses such as training to be an electrician or something. Technical colleges also offer higher level qualifications that are equivalent to university degrees (or part of one) in more technical/vocational roles, i.e. for people who are university rather than 6th form age, while university offers academic courses after 6th form. I have heard of secondary schools being called colleges as part of their name, while not technically speaking being actual colleges. Most of these are probably now academies (which is a secondary school that's not run by the local council).

Wales is mostly like England, while Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own systems that I'm not familiar with at all. There is a national curriculum though, so each year group in England has an equivalent in Scotland, they're just named differently. You still learn the same things at the same age throughout the UK. Please take my post as being just for England, and quite possibly not the whole of England because local education authorities occasionally do something a bit different, like having a middle school system instead of the more usual primary school (reception - year 6) secondary school (year 7 - 11 or 13) system.

So anyway, in England, secondary school and college aren't the same thing, but there can be some overlap with 6th form colleges.

"Secondary school" as a term is used in America (source: I used to teach secondary school in America). I don't know about the "college" thing, then: my British colleagues and students told me it was "the same as secondary." In any case, "college" to them is NOT university.

What really confuses them is the fact that I attended Boston College, which is not considered a college in the US, either, but a university.
 

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And when Americans talk about fanny packs... :greenie



Full disclosure: fits of childish giggling

So, I once casually asked a British colleague if he could give me a ride after the party. (In American-ese that means drive me somewhere in his car).
 

neandermagnon

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"Secondary school" as a term is used in America (source: I used to teach secondary school in America). I don't know about the "college" thing, then: my British colleagues and students told me it was "the same as secondary." In any case, "college" to them is NOT university.

What really confuses them is the fact that I attended Boston College, which is not considered a college in the US, either, but a university.

College confuses everyone I think, because it's not such a precise term.

Then you get collegiate universities, just to confuse everyone even further.

For example: at Cambridge university there are many colleges within it such as Trinity College. This is always termed like "Trinity College, Cambridge" so as not to confuse it (a university) with an actual college, because Cambridge is a university, not a college. It has colleges but isn't a college.

If you go to a collegiate university, you still say "I go to university" and never "I go to college". But you would say "I'm at Trinity College" and if necessary add "Cambridge" to make sure it's clear you mean the college of Cambridge university.

The main difference between college and university is the type of courses they do, and also that you can go to college right after year 11. You have to do year 13 or equivalent* before going to uni.

*there may be some exceptions for students with an unorthodox background who've proven themselves capable and Oxford and Cambridge have (or at least had, dunno if they still do) an entrance exam. But this wouldn't apply much to anyone trying to go to uni before age 18/19. Unless you're a child genius or something but that would be rare.
 
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I'm writing a British MC right now, and I swear I spend more time googling British English than I do actually writing. There are so many differences in our turns of phrase.

I'm a WNYer, like the person who started this thread, but I grew up in northern NY, about an hour south of Montreal. People in WNY, where I've lived for over a decade, usually think I'm Canadian because I don't do the weird, nasally thing with vowels they do here, where "dad" sounds like "Dee-ad". I've stubbornly raised our kids to say "soda" instead of "pop," and "lollipop" instead of "sucker," but I lost the pronunciation battles over "bagel" (I say BAY-gul while they all say BAG-ul).

My ILs come from a particular area in Buffalo with strong Italian heritage, and they have a metric ton of weird phrases that, from what I can gather, emerged from the original Italian being relayed through a four-generations-long game of telephone. When I became friends with an actual Italian speaker, I one time had my husband relay some of these words to get the firm definitions, and my friend was like, "I seriously have no idea what you are saying." Examples: bajadoo for stomachache (my friend eventually determined this came from "agita"), moolignon for eggplant, azul for soup (???). There are many more but I can't remember them offhand (my father in law is particularly adept at quasi-Italian griping that my children generally understand and find hilarious).
 
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benbenberi

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Azul for soup may derive from the popular bean & pasta soup pasta e fagioli, which in common Italian-American often gets collapsed as "pasta fazool". If that's your default concept of soup I can see how it turns into "azul" from there (just make your soup without pasta!)