Accents in Dialogue

neandermagnon

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You've just confused this American. :) Mom and Tom rhyme. Ma'am rhymes with Pam. Is that not how you hear them?

Tom Ma'am and Pam each have their own different pronuncations in my accent. Ma'am assonates with Barn (sorry couldn't think of a rhyme) and I've seen some SE England Brits write "ma'am" phonetically as "Marm". I'm sure it doesn't assonate in any accent that pronounces the r in r-controlled vowels.

ETA: Ma'am rhymes with arm in my dialect. I knew there'd be a rhyme.
 

neandermagnon

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Australian Cockney? Is that like Brooklyn Scouse?

And since when do Aussies speak in a way that could be described as 'measured'

Or cockneys lol

Lol. If it's not within the hearing distance of Bow Bells it's not Cockney. I think Australia's totally on the wrong side of the planet. Maybe it was an Australian with really, really, really, really, really good hearing :greenie
 

neandermagnon

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Keeping in mind that Americans include people from fifty unique states spread across a large landmass and no two Americans learn American English the same way. Just as a UK school child from Belfast, Ireland is going to learn to pronounce things differently from a kid brought up in Swindon, England.

Of course - I fully appreciate that Americans can hear a lot more differences in USA accents than I can. I was giving it as an example of how phonetics don't translate well across accents.

The further the accent is from your own the harder it is to tell the differences. I can tell the difference between South London, North London, Cockney and Estuary - to people far away they'll all just sound like London. But with USA accents I can only really distinguish between North and South USA, and can just about tell Canadian from North USA, but probably not reliably. Even North of England accents, I can hear major differences like between Scouse, Brummie, Yorkshire and Geordie, but people from those places can tell much more subtle differences, e.g. between Geordie and Mackam*/Sunderland, which are two places right next to each other - they both sound Geordie to me.

*dunno if that's spelled right as I've never seen it written down
 

neandermagnon

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Not to nitpick, but phonetic spelling is a specific "thing", which is not what any of the examples cited so far are doing. FWIW I'd quite like to read a novel written in IPA but I doubt it'd have much of an audience beyond sociolinguists.

the phonetic symbols are standardised to prevent confusion between different accents and languages. So how one word would be rendered in my accent would be different to how Americans would render the same word. (ETA: I'm sure you already know that)

Apparently the way I pronounce Ma'am would be rendered as /mɑːm/ (just looked it up and copy-pasted the vowel symbol so apologies if it doesn't show up right when I post it.)

For reference to my earlier post:
Tom is /tɒm/ and Pam is /pæm/

I'd be interested in how they'd be written (using this alphabet/coding system) in other dialects.
 
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Mr.Letterman

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Reading a collection of short stories by R. L. Stevenson (author of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde) and I had to skip, The Merry Men, because there was a Scottish character of whom I could only decipher every third word. A shame because the descriptions of the terrain and associated metaphors and similes were brilliant.
 

Jack Judah

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Differences in accent between the writer and the reader cause phonetically written dialogue to be read completely wrongly.

Yep. That's what I was hoping to demonstrate. To my (admittedly) unschooled ear, and spoken in a non-regional American accent, that butchery I posted above does bear a passing resemblance to an Aussie accent. But for any of my own countrypeople reading it in a Southern American or New England accent, it sounds like my character's having a stroke. Lesson being: this method delivers imperfect results while vastly limiting the audience among which it will be even moderately effective.

Going back to Jack's attempted rendition of an Australian accent, he's written "doon" which to me sounds Scottish. I've never heard an Australian pronounce "down" like that - but I rather suspect that the /oo/ sound is pronounced differently in his accent to mine.

Actually, "doon" was a poor choice to represent the sound I was going for there. "Dun" might have been better. As for my accent, I pronounce "doon" as "dune." "Ma'am" comes off with same vowel sound as "quack" or "lack" or "back."

This comment got me to pondering American accents, or more specifically, bemoaning the dwindling number thereof. While you'll occasionally still hear a voice you can place to within a hundred miles of its point of birth, anymore, we're all starting to sound the same. Mainly because our professional class has adopted a mode of speaking that, for lack of a better description, suffers from a deplorable excess of enunciation.
 
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Mary Mitchell

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I'm reading something right now where one of the characters has one word they use a lot that is spelled phonetically, just to remind the reader to put that accent on the rest of what she says. Seems to work. Although, now that I'm saying this, I'm wondering why mentally maintaining the character's accent is even important. Isn't the content of what she's thinking and saying the most important thing about her? Unless remembering where she's from helps explain her attitudes etc.
 

frimble3

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Ma'am assonates with Barn (sorry couldn't think of a rhyme) and I've seen some SE England Brits write "ma'am" phonetically as "Marm". I'm sure it doesn't assonate in any accent that pronounces the r in r-controlled vowels.
ETA: Ma'am rhymes with arm in my dialect. I knew there'd be a rhyme.
Presumably this related to the 'Old West' American term 'schoolmarm', the mistress of the one-room schoolhouse?
 

neandermagnon

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I'm reading something right now where one of the characters has one word they use a lot that is spelled phonetically, just to remind the reader to put that accent on the rest of what she says. Seems to work. Although, now that I'm saying this, I'm wondering why mentally maintaining the character's accent is even important. Isn't the content of what she's thinking and saying the most important thing about her? Unless remembering where she's from helps explain her attitudes etc.

Yeah I fink that can be a good way to show accents, innit. :greenie

As long as it's still easy to read and understand and isn't going to cause confusion for readers unfamiliar with the accent. And bear in mind that people who speak a different dialect to the writer may still completely misinterpret it.

I think vocab is much more important than phonetic spelling. British characters won't say "elevator" or "sidewalk" unless they've lived in the USA so long that they've picked up some of the local dialect. I'm currently reading a book set in London by a Canadian author. Overall, he's done a really good job of getting London scenery and culture right, but there are still little bits here and there that aren't quite right, in particular words that don't fit. For example: a character says drapes instead of curtains... and a character says smart meaning intelligent - the character would've said clever (smart in British English means well-dressed).

Choosing words that are specific to a dialect or small groups of dialects (like "innit" in my first sentence) is an instant indicator of where someone's from - as long as the reader's at least vaguely familiar with the dialect. Once you've established what dialect a character speaks with, the vocabulary needs to stay true to that dialect.
 

neandermagnon

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Actually, "doon" was a poor choice to represent the sound I was going for there. "Dun" might have been better. As for my accent, I pronounce "doon" as "dune." "Ma'am" comes off with same vowel sound as "quack" or "lack" or "back."

dune and June are pronounced the same in my accent. And tube is pronounced "choob". In RP (posh) British English, tube is pronounce "tyoob"

This comment got me to pondering American accents, or more specifically, bemoaning the dwindling number thereof. While you'll occasionally still hear a voice you can place to within a hundred miles of its point of birth, anymore, we're all starting to sound the same. Mainly because our professional class has adopted a mode of speaking that, for lack of a better description, suffers from a deplorable excess of enunciation.

The same thing's happening in Britain to some extent. Not so much with regional accents, but with social class accents. Accent is very tied up with social class and class prejudice over here, i.e. regional accents are working class, then there's a middle class accent and an upper class accent. Both of the latter sound "posh" to me, but I can hear the difference between middle class posh and full-on plummy upper class posh.

There are negative stereotypes associated with all the regional/working-class accents which go above and beyond just negative stereotypes about working class people. And there's also inverted snobbery/reverse class prejudice and stereotypes surrounding the "posh" accents.

These days though, some young middle and upper class people are either naturally picking up or deliberately emulating working class accents, so they blend in more. Because a posh accent among working class people makes you stand out and not generally in a good way. It's also advertising their class privilege, which doesn't generally go in their favour among working class people.

Here's the thing - Prince William and Prince Harry speak with Estuary accents. That's the same accent as me. (I probably still sound much more common than them because Estuary's more of a spectrum than a specific accent, i.e. blending London with the surrounding regional accents, but it's basically the same accent. The name comes for "Thames Estuary" i.e. the spectrum of accents as you go along the Thames Estuary out of London.) That is unheard of in centuries of British history. Class prejudice via accent has been very ingrained into our culture so the idea of Royal princes speaking the same way as me, a commoner whose family origin is the slums of London is just as radical as Prince William marrying a commoner.

We're a long way of actually being free from class prejudice, but seem to be moving in the right direction, so this blending of accents to me is a good thing.

There's some evidence that regional accents are becoming more similar because of TV, but people's accents are tied up with their identity so I think regions will maintain their distinct accents, even if the accents themselves change over time.
 

Albedo

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Australia's perhaps unusual in having fairly homogenous accents across its entire landmass. Adelaide especially and Melbourne have distinct accents, but the difference from General Australian is subtle. People from Adelaide sound a little bit posh, and Melburnians use funny vowels (cassle vs castle), but other than that geographical differences are minimal. There's much more variation between classes than there is between places[/]. On the other hand, vocabulary (particularly in words for food) varies widely between geographical areas.
 

Helix

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Actually, "doon" was a poor choice to represent the sound I was going for there. "Dun" might have been better.


dahn would have been closer.


dune and June are pronounced the same in my accent. And tube is pronounced "choob". In RP (posh) British English, tube is pronounce "tyoob"

dyoon and joon here, also tyoob


I've had Poms think I'm South African and Americans assume I'm English. Mind you, I know Australians who not only can't tell the difference between Geordie and Yorkshire accents, but also think they are Scottish. Some people are just tone deaf.

ETA:
Australia's perhaps unusual in having fairly homogenous accents across its entire landmass. Adelaide especially and Melbourne have distinct accents, but the difference from General Australian is subtle. People from Adelaide sound a little bit posh, and Melburnians use funny vowels (cassle vs castle), but other than that geographical differences are minimal. There's much more variation between classes than there is between places. On the other hand, vocabulary (particularly in words for food) varies widely between geographical areas.

I often get asked if I'm from Adelaide, so there's def a regional difference at that level.
 
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Ramsay

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dahn would have been closer.




dyoon and joon here, also tyoob


I've had Poms think I'm South African and Americans assume I'm English. Mind you, I know Australians who not only can't tell the difference between Geordie and Yorkshire accents, but also think they are Scottish. Some people are just tone deaf.

ETA:


I often get asked if I'm from Adelaide, so there's def a regional difference at that level.


When I lived in England, people thought I was from everywhere except America. I must have picked up a hint of British accent, because occasionally people will say, "Are you from Britain? You sound like it."

We should start a new thread for British words and phrases. "Maths" instead of math. Dropping the "the" in front of hospital. ("She went to hospital.")
 

CJMockingbird

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I was raised in the South, so my characters often say stuff like "ya'll" and use words like "couldn't've" which technically aren't grammatically correct at all :p Since it's a natural way of speaking where I am, it's how I write. It's also not overdone, not very noticable. If anything they talk more like really laid back adults (curses, for example). I have one character who doesn't use contractions at all when she speaks (it's such a pain, but I think it's interesting)

I assume this kinda stuff is acceptable? :eek:
 

Harlequin

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This is why I find hard rules unworkable. "Innit" is technically dialectal but is a valid word, nae is (I suppose) phonetic but can also be a valid word.

Y'all to me falls under dialect, and everything else you mentioned I would say is the baseline of what I would expect from a novel with different characters. It's good. It's right. It should be there.

I always find it really jarring when everybody talks like Prince Hamlet or a TESOL teacher in stories; it's got that uncanny valley vibe.

That said it's also bizarre when foreign people who speak perfect English in books swear or greet in their native tongue.
 

Quentin Nokov

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ETA ...hang on a sec, how are you guys pronouncing Tom? :)

Lol. I was wondering the same thing.

My story talks about accents, but I don't actually show it in my writing. My story is set on a whole other planet so the countries are different. In Frostfall the northerns drop their Rs, the Southerns pick 'em all up. In Darkfall the people roll all their 'R's. I described Greyfall as having a posh, aristocratic accent.

If I had to write how my characters talked it would be hard to write and even harder to read. It's easier to tell in this case.

We should start a new thread for British words and phrases. "Maths" instead of math. Dropping the "the" in front of hospital. ("She went to hospital.")

Yes, please.
 

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I have a character in my story who is Danish.

Almost all of his dialogue is normal, but when he says "just" I put "yust."

And when he identifies himself, he says he is "Daniss."

That's it.
 

blacbird

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My parents were from Denmark, and my son is very interested in languages, especially Danish. He says it is a very "mumbly" language, with lots of swallowing of consonants into diphthongs, among other things. The common name "Jorgen", for example, is actually pronounced like the English word "urine".

You might want to read some of the excellent police mysteries by Sjöwall and Wahlöö. They are set in Sweden, but involve a great deal of interaction with some Danish police officials.

caw
 

Azkaellion

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Sorry. Can’t take anyone who claims they ‘can’t follow’ Irvine Welsh, James Kelman or Roddy Doyle’s dialogue at all seriously. I suspect the real problem lies elsewhere.