The latter. As a reader, encountering an obvious anachronism almost always destroys the reading experience for me. It makes me wonder, if the writer was careless enough to let this thing through, what other careless things are in there?
caw
Those pesky anachronisms
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The latter. As a reader, encountering an obvious anachronism almost always destroys the reading experience for me. It makes me wonder, if the writer was careless enough to let this thing through, what other careless things are in there?
caw
One thing to watch out for are the metaphors that are so deeply embedded in our normal language that we often don't even notice them. There are a huge number of them -- some calling back old crafts & agrarian practices, a lot from technology, sports & entertainment -- that depending on your style & the type of story you're writing you may want to police pretty strictly. Or not. But being aware of their presence is the first, hardest step!
A little of both. A glaring anachronism throws me off and I don't want that to happen to my readers. But at the same time, when I'm writing I can get paralyzed by fear of making a mistake, so there's some consolation in knowing that even the best historical novelists make them.
You made me google "llama milk"! Apparently, they are quite difficult to milk and don't yield much for the effort. Also, many people in the Andes are lactose intolerant.
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Determined and excited. Yeah, bring on fine combs and magnifying glasses! Let’s make it a drinking game of finding anachronisms in my book, because it would mean you’re reading it!
But seriously, doing my best to avoid anachronisms is part of the fun. I want to bring to life my beloved little corner of the past, and getting rid of anachronisms is one of the necessary things to do, and that’s all there is to it.
I come down where autumnleaf does - it's a little of both. When I come across anachronisms in the work of others (like the "Interstate" gaffe I mentioned upthread) it does help me relax on the need to be Absolutely Perfect - at least in the first draft. But the need itself is in my nature; it comes from a paralyzing fear of being wrong or looking foolish that permeates (and holds me back in) everything I do. So I also can't help feeling horrified at the thought that I might make an Interstate-level gaffe.
The other day I was working on some dialogue and the phrase "tea and sympathy" came out and it was SO perfect for what my character was trying to say ... but I had a bad feeling about it. And sure enough, the phrase does seem to have its origin with the play Tea and Sympathy that came out in the fall of 1953 - about two-and-a-half years later than my setting. Drat.
The other day I was working on some dialogue and the phrase "tea and sympathy" came out and it was SO perfect for what my character was trying to say ... but I had a bad feeling about it. And sure enough, the phrase does seem to have its origin with the play Tea and Sympathy that came out in the fall of 1953 - about two-and-a-half years later than my setting. Drat.
Hey, I think you’re too harsh on yourself. If it fits perfectly, if the scene benefits from it greatly, why not use it? It’s only two-and-a-half years, not centuries. You are showing the understanding of the times and the atmosphere by using the phrase, rather than by strict adherence to the zero-anachronisms rule.
Just one orc’s opinion, of course. But I would never hold it against the author if they decided to take a bit of risk to add some flavor to provide me (the reader) more pleasure.
Then again, most words and phrases appear in speech well before they turn up in print. That's not one I'd worry about.
Hey, I think you’re too harsh on yourself. If it fits perfectly, if the scene benefits from it greatly, why not use it? It’s only two-and-a-half years, not centuries. You are showing the understanding of the times and the atmosphere by using the phrase, rather than by strict adherence to the zero-anachronisms rule.
Just one orc’s opinion, of course. But I would never hold it against the author if they decided to take a bit of risk to add some flavor to provide me (the reader) more pleasure.
You're both very kind and have given me something to think about.
To Tocotin's point, it bothers me, I think, in the same way having a character reference a 1953 popular song would bother me. I could just set the novel in a generic "early 50s" environment in which what you've said would hold. But once I've bothered to nail down a time frame (which I've done because some events in the book are precipitated by a real-life political event; though I may yet unmoor it from that specific event). it feels hinky to introduce popular-culture references that I know could not have been made then.
And to Lil's point, the reason I worry about it is that it's not just the phrase itself, but the particular context in which my character used it: Talking about a girl who was accused of homosexuality at school. That's exactly what the play Tea and Sympathy is about (except it was a boy). In that context it's really not just a phrase; it's an explicit reference to to the play. Indeed that's probably why the phrase came into my mind when I was writing the scene.
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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)
I was going to say, well, if they had tea and they had sympathy, why not use the phrase? But if you want to use it for the explicit reference, then yes, you're better off not using it if the play wasn't yet available.
Blessings,
Siri Kirpal
I was going to say, well, if they had tea and they had sympathy, why not use the phrase? But if you want to use it for the explicit reference, then yes, you're better off not using it if the play wasn't yet available.
Blessings,
Siri Kirpal
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This is very true, which is why people often misspell the words in idioms (like when someone writes "tow the line" instead of "toe the line") because they've forgotten what the idioms actually refer to in a literal sense.
It gets complex when one is "translating" another language into modern English too. It can be debatable whether or not a different metaphor that could exist in the other language (whether real or made up) might translate roughly into a more modern one. My personal line is to avoid ones that reference something that clearly wouldn't exist in that world or that feel at odds with the culture portrayed, but there are still exceptions. For instance, if I'm writing a fantasy story set in another world that never had Greek gods, I'd probably still use a word like "volcano." There really isn't any alternative word in modern English. In historical settings where another language than modern English was spoken, it can be hard to decide whether or not words like "saturnine" or "laconic" should be translated as well.
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Sat Nam! (Literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)
If the language wasn't any version of English, and "laconic" or "saturnine" fit what the word might have been, I'd say it would be okay. Not quite the same as saying "raining cats and dogs" when there are no cats.
Blessings,
Siri Kirpal
If the language wasn't any version of English, and "laconic" or "saturnine" fit what the word might have been, I'd say it would be okay. Not quite the same as saying "raining cats and dogs" when there are no cats.
Blessings,
Siri Kirpal
Once you start heading down the road of etymology, it's hard to know when to stop. English is riddled with words like "laconic" that, on the one hand, reference a specific cultural history (in this case, the supposed speech habits of the Spartans), but on the other hand are well-established pieces of standard vocabulary that require a little knowledge to recognize as cultural references and leave a hole if you pluck them out.
As Siri Kirpal says, it's a somewhat different problem from explicitly calling out things that don't exist in the setting (raining cats and dogs in the land without cats, or giving a ballpark estimate in the world without baseball).
Not to mention there are bits of vocabulary that originated with a clear cultural referent but have migrated in their meaning so the origin is distracting. "Decimate," for instance, originally meant to kill one in ten, & was said to be a punishment in the Roman army. Modern usage, though, has decimate = mass slaughter, and the people who stand up and say, "but... one in ten!" don't get paid much attention -- they're fighting for a lost cause, like the people who object to splitting infinitives and the people who love "whom." Would I use "decimate" in a historical or fantasy setting to mean either mass slaughter or one in ten? I'd have to think pretty hard about it.
I just came across a brilliant term on Smart Bitches Trashy Books:
Potato Rage: The rage that overtakes the reader when a blatant and easily researchable anachronism pops up out of nowhere. Like potatoes (a New World food) being served to a Viking.
http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/2011/11/the-bitchery-glossary/
Let's all try to avoid causing potato rage!
Potato Rage: The rage that overtakes the reader when a blatant and easily researchable anachronism pops up out of nowhere. Like potatoes (a New World food) being served to a Viking.
http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/2011/11/the-bitchery-glossary/
Let's all try to avoid causing potato rage!
I've had this debate with myself over 'saturnine' - it was the perfect word to describe my character's mood, but alas, being set in ancient Egypt, such a blatant reference to a Roman god just felt wrong. On the other hand, 'laconic' wouldn't worry me, because I think the word has passed into common usage to the extent that it has become quite divorced (at least in the reader's mind) from it's origins, and so it wouldn't overtly make reference to the Spartans, for most people anyway.
Yep - what he said
haha, what a fantastic term! It might equally be called 'tomato rage', but that doesn't quite roll of the tongue as easily
I spent a silly amount of time trying to work out whether potatoes were grown in Ireland in about 1605. 50 years earlier, and I could have answered with a definite "no". 50 years later, and I could have said with confidence that they were widely eaten. Potatoes had definitely reached Spain and Italy by the 1570s, and there are a few mentions of potatoes in Ireland and England from the 1590s, but as far as I can make out they were something of an exotic crop until later in the 17th century (when they became a common foodstuff for livestock and peasants).
I might include a mention of these "strange new root vegetables" being cultivated, with a sort of "it'll never catch on" remark.
I might include a mention of these "strange new root vegetables" being cultivated, with a sort of "it'll never catch on" remark.
Also, I never realized until this conversation that "laconic" had anything to do with the Spartans. You never know what you'll learn in AW!
I love Potato Rage! I just can't seem to be able to finish the book I'm reading right now, and just realized that one big Potato Rage might be responsible for that...
I am a little bit in love with the term "potato rage". It's much better than "Interstate rage" for my own example of it that I keep bringing up - it leans too far toward "road rage" which has quite different connotations.
Well... to really bore the pants off you, it is named after the region of the Peloponnese that Sparta was the administrative capital of - Lakedaimonia, or Lakonia. Spartans were therefore also sometimes called Lakonians, hence a particularly Spartan trait came to be known as 'being laconic'
*geekgasm*
Share!! I love a good potato rage party
In a James P. Hogan novel about multiple timelines, that was used to identify people from Otherwhere. In one scene, the good guys realized that some people were also from our timeline (persuing them) when they used the expression “go ballistic”. The current location was a timeline that never had WWII, they realized.
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Well... to really bore the pants off you, it is named after the region of the Peloponnese that Sparta was the administrative capital of - Lakedaimonia, or Lakonia. Spartans were therefore also sometimes called Lakonians, hence a particularly Spartan trait came to be known as 'being laconic'
*geekgasm*
That's a tough one, because it's not a term that will knock most readers out. It's not even capitalized the way the word "Spartan" still is. I'd be inclined to leave it in in a setting where people wouldn't be speaking English anyway, so the term is effectively "translated" from whatever language the people are really speaking.
I don't like the translation principle when people are speaking modern English, though, and the term hasn't yet entered their lexicon (words like sabotage, escalate and so on). I also would avoid words that most reasonably informed reader strongly associate with a given historical person, place or thing that wouldn't be present in the setting. I wouldn't use "Spartan" in a time or place where the term wouldn't exist for that reason. It would make most readers think of real-world Sparta.
According to Google-fu the potato was introduced in Ireland in 1589:
1589 – Sir Walter Raleigh (1552-1618), British explorer and historian known for his expeditions to the Americas, first brought the potato to Ireland and planted them at his Irish estate at Myrtle Grove, Youghal, near Cork, Ireland.
[h=3]History of Potatoes, Whats Cooking America
What about 'sadist / sadism' in a pre-18th century setting?
I've seen it done. It's like nails on a chalkboard. Seriously, any -ism feels jarring in pre-19th century settings.
As to the Potato Rage book I'm reading right now, I'll go the RYFW way and send you the title via PM. Here I'll only say that it's set in the middle of the 19th century, in pre-modern Japan, and is filled to the brim with (entirely modern) Western mannerisms and body language. Kissing on the cheek, hugging, patting on the back, the works. I'm reading it while eating lunch at work and it seriously makes me lose my appetite.
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Well... to really bore the pants off you, it is named after the region of the Peloponnese that Sparta was the administrative capital of - Lakedaimonia, or Lakonia. Spartans were therefore also sometimes called Lakonians, hence a particularly Spartan trait came to be known as 'being laconic'
*geekgasm*
Not boring at all! Language geekery is fun and not weird or timewasting. Isn't it?
Potatoes certainly existed in Ireland by the late 16th century, but they probably started out as a specialist crop in small market gardens, and it's hard to determine when they became a staple crop. By the late 17th century, they were definitely a big part of the diet -- partially because many Irish had been displaced onto marginal land because of war and plantation. Potatoes grow pretty well even in relatively bad soil, once they get enough moisture, plus they're very nutrient-dense. So they seemed like the ideal crop -- as long as they didn't fail....
Here is a ridiculously comprehensive table of when Europeans first mention potatoes:
https://fusiontables.google.com/data?docid=1nKdo2bg9Bw5BxUt7QDB7bmeCNRBe6LWp5MklPKga#card:id=2
What about 'sadist / sadism' in a pre-18th century setting?
That would grate on me a little. Possibly because in Outlander, the 18th-century villain was utterly baffled when the 20th-century time-travelling heroine called him a sadist (and he was a pretty textbook example).