Those pesky anachronisms

MAS

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Imagine if every period piece had to use period dialog!

A long time ago I read Georgette Heyer's unfinished My Lord John, about the sons of Henry IV, set in the late 14th century. It is so accurate to the period that she included a glossary in the back of the book. It took a while before I really fell into the flow of the book because I kept going back and forth between the novel and the glossary, but kudos to her, the language wasn't a problem after a couple of chapters to get used to it. According to her husband's preface, this was the book of her heart, but she never got to finish it because she kept putting it down to write more regency novels to meet the demands of her readers, and then died before it was completed.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Do remember that some people are slow to change. My grandfather insisted on calling jeans 'dungarees' all his life, long after that went out of fashion. Just because a name changed 'officially' doesn't mean everyone changed instantly.

Indeed, and some will rage when a word changes meaning, or when a new word comes into fashion.

I sometimes laugh at my author group. My current WIP is set in 12th century Ireland, and they will occasionally ask if a particular word was used then. None of these words were used then! Modern English wasn't in existence then! At this point, it was still middle English, and still a strong mix of Norman and Anglo-Saxon. However, since my book must be written in modern English, some words may, indeed, jar the reader out of the illusion of medieval Irish life.

It comes up pretty frequently when people want to write stories set in pre-Norman, or even 12th century, England. They want to write it the way people really spoke back then, some say. Um, no they don't, because most modern readers couldn't understand it.

In these cases, the writer actually gets a bit more latitude than someone writing in the 19th (or 17the) century. It's more a matter of figuring out which modern words and phrases are plausible translations for concepts that people had in that much earlier time. For instance, knowledgeable readers might notice if an early or mid 19th century character wears her hair in a "bun," because that word wasn't used to describe such a hair style then (I think they used words like "knot." But if the book is set in ancient Rome, or even an England before modern English evolved, then it's a plausible translation for whatever term people did use back then.

There was one that they asked about, and I looked it up. The word was actually a word then (can't remember what it was at this point) - but if it threw people out of the story, perhaps I could find a different one... we have many to choose from!

That happens sometimes. There are modern words that most people think are old, and there are older words than most people think are modern.

Things that toss me out are when a pre-20th century character refers to/thinks of "adrenaline." Also, when the word "addiction" is used in a modern, clinical sense (for physical and psychological dependence on a drug). The word does go back to the 1600s, but it meant a penchant or tendency back then. The complexity is that an "addiction" in the original meaning of the word could lead to what we think of as a clinical "addiction" today, and it's likely that people didn't really draw a line or differentiate the two before a modern understanding developed. But having someone in the 19th century, or before, give a 12-steps style pep talk about addiction to a "drunkard" feels just a wee bit out of place.

One type of anachronism I notice are food and livestock ones: turkeys in medieval Europe, or pumpkins, potatoes, or corn (though the word is sometimes used by British writers to refer to wheat, so it can be hard to tell).

Historically inspired fantasy settings are another matter, of course. Since we're suspending disbelief about cultural parallels in unconnected worlds anyway, there's no reason why they couldn't have turkeys and potatoes in a part of their world that vaguely resembles medieval Europe. Unless the element that is present is something that would likely have pushed cultural development really far off that path. Gunpowder-free worlds with ships that greatly resemble 17th and 18th century models that were built (in our world) to accommodate banks of cannons can make me go "Huh?"
 

blacbird

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or corn (though the word is sometimes used by British writers to refer to wheat, so it can be hard to tell).

Actually, I believe "corn" in the U.K. more specifically refers to what Americans know as oats. Real goddamn American corn, like grows in the Midwest where I grew up, is "maize". And they regularly put it on pizza in the U.K., and the concept of eating sweet corn off the cob, which is one of the great treats of my childhood, is regarded there as an abomination, the thing animals do.

But, for the love of God, they eat marmite there.

caw
 

Siri Kirpal

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I believe I've mentioned that a friend of mine wrote a children's book about Dante in which the guy ate tomatoes. I sent her an email suggesting she correct that in the next edit...if she's able.

The one that bothered me the most when I read it was a peasant family in the Middle Ages needing a large cart to transport all their furniture. Huh...no.

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Siri Kirpal
 

benbenberi

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The one that bothered me the most when I read it was a peasant family in the Middle Ages needing a large cart to transport all their furniture. Huh...no.

If we're getting into furniture... stories set at any social level in the Middle Ages where people have chairs all over the place. No. In the Middle Ages chairs were rare luxuries and a castle/palace/manor house would only have had one or two of them, reserved for the Big Man. A "throne" was special because it was the only chair. Everybody else stood, or at best sat on benches & stools. It's not till the late 1400s that chairs start to multiply in the homes of the rich. It's not till the late 1800s that they were universal -- yay industrial furniture making!

For that matter, as late as the 19c a table was a luxury in peasant houses in parts of France -- people made do with benches, or held stuff in their laps, and they ate from communal vessels at the hearth. The poor didn't have elaborate bed frames, just (if they were lucky) a mattress, i.e. a big bag stuffed with straw or hair. Again, industrial manufacturing made furniture cheap enough that poor people could have some too. Before that, all the furniture of a peasant family would fit in a handcart, and there would still be room in it for all the rest of their worldly goods & possibly the children too.
 
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CWatts

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If we're getting into furniture... stories set at any social level in the Middle Ages where people have chairs all over the place. No. In the Middle Ages chairs were rare luxuries and a castle/palace/manor house would only have had one or two of them, reserved for the Big Man. A "throne" was special because it was the only chair. Everybody else stood, or at best sat on benches & stools. It's not till the late 1400s that chairs start to multiply in the homes of the rich. It's not till the late 1800s that they were universal -- yay industrial furniture making!

For that matter, as late as the 19c a table was a luxury in peasant houses in parts of France -- people made do with benches, or held stuff in their laps, and they ate from communal vessels at the hearth. The poor didn't have elaborate bed frames, just (if they were lucky) a mattress, i.e. a big bag stuffed with straw or hair. Again, industrial manufacturing made furniture cheap enough that poor people could have some too. Before that, all the furniture of a peasant family would fit in a handcart, and there would still be room in it for all the rest of their worldly goods & possibly the children too.

That is fascinating. I'm thinking the urban poor did not have much in the way of furniture either, because of the cost but also having to move frequently and/or be evicted. Apparently in late 18th century Paris there was a housing crisis every three months when the rent was due and people were tossed out on the street. The revolutionaries literally had nothing to lose (except their heads, unfortunately - the Terror was mostly a factional purge, contrary to myth).
 
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Siri Kirpal

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But urban burghers of some substance did have some built-in furniture. Built-in bed alcoves seemed to be popular in the photos and artwork I've seen.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

waylander

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Actually, I believe "corn" in the U.K. more specifically refers to what Americans know as oats. Real goddamn American corn, like grows in the Midwest where I grew up, is "maize". And they regularly put it on pizza in the U.K., and the concept of eating sweet corn off the cob, which is one of the great treats of my childhood, is regarded there as an abomination, the thing animals do.

But, for the love of God, they eat marmite there.

caw
No, corn would be wheat.
Corn on the cob is fairly often served at barbeques.
Marmite is a food of the gods!
 

autumnleaf

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Historically, "corn" was a generic term for any grain.

I recently found out that clothespegs (or clothespins as they're called in the USA) didn't appear until the 19th century (https://medium.economist.com/the-curious-history-of-the-clothespeg-3f8615519c61). Before then, people obviously hung their clothes outside to dry in fields or on lines, but without the benefit of clothespegs. On windy days, many shirts must have ended up in the neighbour's farm!
 
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Helix

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Here's a subtle and fun one I ran into yesterday. For reasons I won't get into, I was thinking of having a character think of the scientific name of the orangutan. I looked it up, and the Bornean orangutan is Pongo pygmaeus. Reading a little further, I saw that the current classification of orangutans into two species was established in 1996 (and is still under discussion). So my character, in 1951, probably would not have produced the name Pongo pygmaeus. She would have come up with whatever it might have said in, say, an issue of National Geographic or American Scientist in the 40s. I've done a bit more digging but haven't yet determined what that might be. The original classification by Linneaus was Simia satyrus. Might that have changed by the 40s? It's likely. So there's probably some third name which is the name that my character would think of.

There's a 2014 book called Wild Man from Borneo: A Cultural History of the Orangutan that will probably answer my question. It's not really worth a great investment at this point, however. The scene might change - I've already waffled many times on whether it's an orangutan or a baboon - or be cut completely. And it's not the kind of anachronism that even nonegenarian readers (should I be lucky enough to have any) would catch, unless they happen to have been taxonomists of primate species. It's good to know that the answer is findable, but I'm trying to set it aside for now - the manuscript says Simia satyrus for now. Maybe my character read Linneaus....

I had a bit of a dig around. Pongo as a genus name was introduced by Lacepede (insert diacritical marks as required) in 1799. (Probably in Histoire Naturelle, but I didn't dig around that much.)

I'd have thought that in 1951, Pongo pygmaeus would have been in use, with the Borneo form as nominate subspecies (P. pygmaeus pygmaeus) and Sumatran form as P. pygmaeus abelii.

ETA: Er...that wasn't what I'd intended to contribute to this thread. It was this:

In a novel about the American Civil War, the author -- who should have known better -- had a character refer to the "gene pool".
 
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Lakey

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I had a bit of a dig around. Pongo as a genus name was introduced by Lacepede (insert diacritical marks as required) in 1799. (Probably in Histoire Naturelle, but I didn't dig around that much.)

I'd have thought that in 1951, Pongo pygmaeus would have been in use, with the Borneo form as nominate subspecies (P. pygmaeus pygmaeus) and Sumatran form as P. pygmaeus abelii.

Well, thank you for this! I'm curious to know what digging around you did - not as a challenge; rather genuinely curious. So perhaps what changed in 1996 then was that Borneo and Sumatran populations got elevated to species rather than both being treated a subspecies of Pongo pygmaeus. At any rate it sounds like my mind-like-a-steel-trap-for-useless-info character can dig up Pongo pygmaeus and it would make sense as a term she'd read somewhere once.


ETA: Er...that wasn't what I'd intended to contribute to this thread. It was this:

In a novel about the American Civil War, the author -- who should have known better -- had a character refer to the "gene pool".

Facepalm. I live in fear of making mistakes like this and it's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I started this thread with "not my first rodeo." If I ever get this thing to the stage where such fine edits are of value, I imagine going through the whole thing with a pencil and underlining every turn of phrase or colloquialism that has the slightest chance of being an anachronism, and then chasing down the usage of each and every one.
 

Helix

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Well, thank you for this! I'm curious to know what digging around you did - not as a challenge; rather genuinely curious. So perhaps what changed in 1996 then was that Borneo and Sumatran populations got elevated to species rather than both being treated a subspecies of Pongo pygmaeus. At any rate it sounds like my mind-like-a-steel-trap-for-useless-info character can dig up Pongo pygmaeus and it would make sense as a term she'd read somewhere once.

It was very shallow digging on my part. I just looked up the author of Pongo to see when the genus was established and then did the same for the species. I didn't have a look at the work in which P. pygmaeus abelii was elevated to species. That should contain a full synonymy. (I will have to check now.)

ETA: It's this one, which is not open access.


Facepalm. I live in fear of making mistakes like this and it's exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I started this thread with "not my first rodeo." If I ever get this thing to the stage where such fine edits are of value, I imagine going through the whole thing with a pencil and underlining every turn of phrase or colloquialism that has the slightest chance of being an anachronism, and then chasing down the usage of each and every one.

I wonder if there's some acceptable level of anachronism. No more than three per book, or something!
 
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As a mystery/crime writer, I've read a lot of the old 1930's era "hard-boiled" school - and things like Dashiell Hammett using words like "gunsel" which editors and readers assumed meant one thing when it was something else. The author was getting it past the censors. Mostly I concentrate on the story and go back and check later - but what good is scrupulous accuracy if no one will read it? At what point do you sacrifice accuracy for the sake of story? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating being lazy - I can hardly watch current crime shows; I'll see some obvious mistake and turn the darn TV off.

I'll admit I can get intimidated at times - for example I've had an idea about a crime story set in the 1920's with the "blues" scene as background but I always figured I was too much white bread to do it justice. Maybe someday.

Right now I'm considering re-writing a failed novel I wrote in the 1980's - so do I leave it there or bring it contemporary? Decisions, decisions. Hope every one has a great day.
 

autumnleaf

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Right now I'm considering re-writing a failed novel I wrote in the 1980's - so do I leave it there or bring it contemporary? Decisions, decisions. Hope every one has a great day.

An '80s setting could work to its advantage -- look at the success of "Stranger Things". But how deeply is the story embedded in that era? Do you mention events and issues of the day? Does the Cold War or the emerging AIDS epidemic play a part? Do you have plot points that are only believable if your characters don't have access to cell phones?
 

porlock

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Thanks - yeah, things like the Vietnam war may play a part, A character then would be too old now for some things. I remember TV changed a Michael Connelly novel (in the book he was a Vietnam vet they changed it to Afghanistan for the update and it really didn't work for me).
 

Tom from UK

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You will never catch them all. I recently read an extremely good and thoroughly well researched Tudor novel in which a character owes some money, naturally enough to a Jew. Except that last week I went to a short lecture on Jewish history and learned that there were no Jews in Tudor England. (Mad enough that I went away to check and there really weren't.)
 

autumnleaf

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Sharon Kay Penman is known for her meticulous research. Yet in her first novel, The Sunne in Splendour, a grey squirrel shows up in 15th-century England. Grey squirrels come from the Americas and there were none in Medieval Europe. She corrected this to a red squirrel in subsequent editions.
 

benbenberi

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Dorothy Dunnett, whose research into 15-16c was extraordinary & usually impeccable, referred several times to maize in 15c Africa. I don't think she ever corrected it after the error was pointed out. Anachronisms can happen to anybody!
 

Siri Kirpal

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There's an otherwise fine novel in which an important object is sometimes called a record and sometimes a vinyl. Problem is: Records in the 1930s and 1940s were not called vinyls, but shellacs. (I know this, because that's what Mom -- classical aficionado -- called them.) I haven't looked it up, but I'm assuming the composition really was different. And in my day, 1950s until the introduction of CDs, records were called LPs.

Research problems shouldn't occur on your first page, should not indicate that the author has no clue about the mental gestalt of the period, and should not be plot points. Other than that, an anachronism or two is usually forgivable.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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I recently started a novel set in Regency England where the MMC's valet notes in passing that the duvet covers in the stately home he and his master are visiting are clean and not patched. They hunt quail from horseback. FMC shoots three quail >Bang! Bang! Bang!< with the same shotgun without reloading. I DNFd soon after that at 13% complete due to that and other things.

I like Regency and will put up with mistakes in research. But not that many.
 

Tocotin

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Anachronisms in historical fiction about Japan are so common that I'm surprised when a book has only a few of them. In my opinion this abundance of anachronisms seems to be the result of a strange notion that Japan has a culture, but no cultural history. Authors assume that "traditional" things (various types of clothes, customs, food, architecture, theatre, religion etc.) were always around and haven't changed for centuries. Hence the tedious stuff about "ancient" samurai culture, "ancient" tea ceremony, "ancient" kabuki theatre... Everyday details come straight from the 20th century, as well as naming conventions.

This is why I hate the term "Feudal Japan". It covers the period from 1185 to 1868, nearly seven centuries. Things changed a lot during that period.
 

blacbird

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but what good is scrupulous accuracy if no one will read it? At what point do you sacrifice accuracy for the sake of story?

I don't understand this comment. If "no one will read it", that's a problem with the story itself, isn't it? Not with the detail accuracy of the story. And unless you are writing some kind of "alternate history" SF/Fantasy, I don't think you should ever "sacrifice accuracy for the sake of the story".What would be the point of doing that?

caw
 

Lakey

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The thread has shifted from the anachronisms we struggle with as writers to anachronisms we have encountered in the writing of others. So let me bring the two topics together: Does finding anachronisms in the writing of others help you worry a little less that your own are slipping through? Or does it make you that much more determined to avoid them yourself?
 

Siri Kirpal

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Makes me more determined to avoid them, since they invariably throw me off...unless it's a time and place I know nothing about.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

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I'm reading a book, narrated in first person, set in the Aztec empire. I'm enjoying it, but a couple of anachronisms jumped out at me. One was a reference to something being served with milk. I'm pretty sure they had no dairy animals, and in fact the only domesticated animals possessed by the Aztecs were dogs and turkeys. The second was someone having an expression of catlike smugness. Again, no domestic cats. This might have been a reference to the catlike wild animals that lived in Mexico of the time, of course--jaguars and ocelots and so on--but at no other point in the book have those animals been referred to as cats.

It makes me wonder if there are other creeping inaccuracies I didn't notice. It also points out how ingrained some things are in our psyche as modern writers, where concepts that wouldn't be part of a viewpoint character's world (but, like milk and cats, are an integral part of our own) slip by our own internal editors, and those of a book's editorial staff as well.

Seeing these things in trade-published work makes me realize how easy it is to mess up. It also makes me realize that such mistakes aren't deal breakers for publishers or (presumably) for most readers.
 
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