Tropes you hate and why

autumnleaf said:

It really does depend on the setting. In a pre-industrial society, obesity would be rare. Maybe it might exist among the upper classes, in which case it would be a sign of status, possibly even seen as a Good Thing.

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It would have to be rarer than it is now, but obesity has been well documented for thousands of years, and it wasn't generally well thought of or enviable, even if it was more common in the upper classes. Food wasn't scarce at all times and places in history. People tended to be more physically active (unless they were so rich they got carried everywhere in litters), but this evidently didn't protect everyone. Of course, for farmers, the level of activity varied with season. Many tasks required a person to sit for long periods too, and peasant diets were pretty grain based. The health risks associated with obesity were known in Classical times, which suggests it was common enough to be of concern.

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...9PhVn8#v=onepage&q=history of obesity&f=false

I'm guessing that near-complete absence of sympathetic characters who are very heavy from fantasy and historical fiction (as well as from stories set in more modern times that aren't specifically issue focused) might reflect modern cultural biases more than an attempt to portray things realistically. Though a character living in a historical time or place would likely have biases against very heavy people too. With speculative fiction, one can portray things differently, of course.

Friendly Frog said:

Another one that always annoys me is normal animals turning into deranged killers, willing to risk death and debilitating injury for a kill with no good reason. Did you feed your animals crazy-making hormones or bio-engineer your animal into blood-craving assassin? Heh, I can work with that. Normal animals, that have no reason to be mindless toothed/clawed killer-machines? Hell no. I'm disapprovingly looking at you, King-Kong.

Also, people tranqing giant animals about to chomp down on someone that then fall asleep at their feet as soon as the dart goes in? Tranqing animals never works that way! I've seen enough vet and wildlife shows to know that tranquilliser darts take their effing sweet time to take effect. Especially if you want the animal to live. And most don't wear off naturally, some will need an antidote and quickly. Also, different tranquillisers for different metabolisms.

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Yes! These. Other assorted animal tropes that upset me:

Poodles are frou-frou, neurotically dumb, emasculated bark machines. As opposed to being the clever, bold, fearsomely loyal gun dogs they are in reality. I haven't read this one, but I know a few poodle owners for whom it's become an instant wall banger. Ditto any other extreme wrongness about a breed's actual temperament.

Why are crows and ravens always a symbol of death/fear/horror? What about all the positive cultural associations they have the world over, of wisdom, humour, creation? Same goes for vultures, hyenas, and other scavengers. Why are they always a symbol for craven, cowardly meanness? Scavengers are the most unfairly maligned animals in history.

What about the family pet that can instantly detect a stranger's bad vibes? Sorry, I loved my old dog, but if the very ghost of headless Hitler came calling one stormy night she'd have been all over its eldritch form, angling for hugs and licks. and cats are always that mad at everyone.

Clearly we need more alien seahorses. (Okay, so brood pouches rather then breasts but getting there. Too bad male pregnancy in fiction is always played for laughs.)

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Have you seen the episode of BoJack Horseman with the seahorse dad? It's kind of touching.

This isn't necessarily my most hated trope, just an odd one that for some reason I seem to notice a lot: to signify that your male villain is evil and rich, he needs to do two things: smoke cigars and play golf, preferably at the same time. Voila. I hate this for two reasons: a. It's incredibly lazy, and b. my dad does both. He's not evil or rich.

Albedo said:

Yes! These. Other assorted animal tropes that upset me:

Poodles are frou-frou, neurotically dumb, emasculated bark machines. As opposed to being the clever, bold, fearsomely loyal gun dogs they are in reality. I haven't read this one, but I know a few poodle owners for whom it's become an instant wall banger. Ditto any other extreme wrongness about a breed's actual temperament.

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Poodles are intelligent, athletic dogs. I know some, both standard and toy, who tear up agility courses. Poodles come in both sexes too. That's how the breeders make baby poodles.

The animal trope that bugs me the most is that (nearly) all animals are boys. Seriously, did none of the people making kids' cartoons or who write books about animals ever have a female pet? Even Black Beauty was a boy horse (though his sex made not one shred of difference to the story, and he would, presumably, have been gelded). And if the animals in question are dogs, any female "love interest" present is always a poodle, or some fluffy, white breed. Like there aren't any male poodles or female Labradors.

I liked The Secret Life of Pets, and they had some nice touches (including a disabled dog and a fluffy bunny that was anything but sweet), but most of the animal characters were male, and the one female dog was a fluffy little Pomeranian or something who had a crush on the MMC.

Zootopia was a breath of fresh air in that respect, as it had a female protagonist and villain.

Cartoon animals are (almost) always male.

Historically, so are most cartoon characters in general (though there have been a few well-liked cartoon gals who weren't in support roles since the 80s, like Daria and the Power Puff Girls).

Given that most kids (in the US, at least) spend countless hours watching cartoons during their formative years, I wonder how that affects later expectations and attitudes about the interest level of female characters in general?

I remember getting irritated in the Snoop Dogg video where him, his crew, and his girlfriend all turn into dogs because Snoop gets to be an awesome Doberman and his girlfriend ends up as a fairly standard toy breed.

I don't know if this is a trope, but why does "Fantasy" automatically mean "Stories set in a faux-medieval world with dragons/elves/magic etc"?

There are other settings... or (gasp) create your own.

Roxxsmom said:

The animal trope that bugs me the most is that (nearly) all animals are boys. Seriously, did none of the people making kids' cartoons or who write books about animals ever have a female pet? Even Black Beauty was a boy horse (though his sex made not one shred of difference to the story, and he would, presumably, have been gelded). And if the animals in question are dogs, any female "love interest" present is always a poodle, or some fluffy, white breed. Like there aren't any male poodles or female Labradors.

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When I was young, my parents had a female dog (technically a bitch, but she was most un-bitchy). I noticed that other people used male pronouns by default -- sometimes even after I'd used female ones.

"He really loves chasing sticks, doesn't he?"
"Yes, it's her favourite game."
"He's very cute."

I remember how Pixar's Up played with this assumption a bit. Russell assumed the bird was a boy and named it Kevin. Then later was surprised to find the bird minding chicks -- "Kevin's a girl!" (Of course, that might be an untrue assumption in itself, since male birds often take care of chicks. But I'm willing to cut Russell some slack since he was just a child and his own father didn't seem to be the most hands-on parent.)

Roxxsmom said:

The animal trope that bugs me the most is that (nearly) all animals are boys. Seriously, did none of the people making kids' cartoons or who write books about animals ever have a female pet? Even Black Beauty was a boy horse (though his sex made not one shred of difference to the story, and he would, presumably, have been gelded). And if the animals in question are dogs, any female "love interest" present is always a poodle, or some fluffy, white breed. Like there aren't any male poodles or female Labradors.

I liked The Secret Life of Pets, and they had some nice touches (including a disabled dog and a fluffy bunny that was anything but sweet), but most of the animal characters were male, and the one female dog was a fluffy little Pomeranian or something who had a crush on the MMC.

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Try Homeward Bound (1993), with Michael J. Fox as the voice of Chance the bulldog, and Sally Field voicing Sassy the cat. She got what I thought was the best line of the whole movie:

"Here, kitty, kitty, kitty."
"No, dummy, dummy, dummy."

Actually, I think Regency fiction has the reverse trope (don't ask--I read way too much of it when I was younger), but almost always the hero has an enormous, speedy and tremendously intelligent gelding, while he presents the heroine with a "beautiful, spirited little mare." I don't know that that annoys me too much, but it happens fairly often.

Lakey said:

Compare Smurfette syndrome - the Smurfs are an entire village made up of males, and there is exactly one female character, signified by her dress, heeled pumps, breasts, long blonde hair, made-up face, etc. And it's not limited to cartoons, and it has a HUGE effect on kids' perceptions of sex roles and what kinds of people get to have interesting stories told about them.

Smurfette syndrome probably counts as the trope I hate the most. I played with Smurf figurines as a kid. They were all based upon professions trades and hobbies - there was a figurine with a toolbelt and a wrench; a figurine in a doctor's coat with a stethoscope; one wielding a tennis racket; one on a skateboard and so on. And then there was the Smurfette figurine, whose activity was evidently ... being female? All right, then.

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The new Smurfs movie is all about Smurfette going on a journey and discovering a whole village of female Smurfs that do all kinds of wacky things (so I hear, I haven't seen it). So hey, if the Smurfs are evolving, I guess anyone can.

Keithy said:

I don't know if this is a trope, but why does "Fantasy" automatically mean "Stories set in a faux-medieval world with dragons/elves/magic etc"?

There are other settings... or (gasp) create your own.

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It's J.R.R. Tolkien's fault.

Friendly Frog said:

Another one that always annoys me is normal animals turning into deranged killers, willing to risk death and debilitating injury for a kill with no good reason. Did you feed your animals crazy-making hormones or bio-engineer your animal into blood-craving assassin? Heh, I can work with that. Normal animals, that have no reason to be mindless toothed/clawed killer-machines? Hell no. I'm disapprovingly looking at you, King-Kong.

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I'd agree with you on general principle, but King Kong (whether his original or the most recent iteration) seems to be an animal that has perfectly good reasons to go on a rampage. Most of us would do the same thing in his shoes. If, um, he had shoes.

Keithy said:

I don't know if this is a trope, but why does "Fantasy" automatically mean "Stories set in a faux-medieval world with dragons/elves/magic etc"?

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Clairels said:

It's J.R.R. Tolkien's fault.

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Yes, I remember the days when that was pretty much all there was in that section. And another thing, every time you open a fantasy book these days there's a map with funny names in the front. In the "old" days books didn't need maps. Or funny names.

Twick said:

I'd agree with you on general principle, but King Kong (whether his original or the most recent iteration) seems to be an animal that has perfectly good reasons to go on a rampage. Most of us would do the same thing in his shoes. If, um, he had shoes.

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I should have clarified. I meant the movie (Peter Jackson version) not the giant simian himself. (Although I did have a lot of problems with the motivation of most of the characters in that movie, not just Kong.) But the trope of animals as mindless killers willing to risk life and limbs for a tasty human morsel is definitely at play with the dinosaurs in Jackson's King Kong. Dromaesaurids forgetting they're in the middle of a giant sauropod stampede (and thus getting stomped) just to snack on humans? And it doesn't end there. Another dinosaur abandons his large kill to attack and pursue the heroine. And finally three (!) T. rexes fighting relentlessly to the death so they can chomp on a tiny human woman? Come on. How come dinosaurs on the Skull Island haven't died out yet through sheer and utter stupidity?

I liked The Secret Life of Pets, and they had some nice touches (including a disabled dog and a fluffy bunny that was anything but sweet), but most of the animal characters were male, and the one female dog was a fluffy little Pomeranian or something who had a crush on the MMC.

Zootopia was a breath of fresh air in that respect, as it had a female protagonist and villain.

Cartoon animals are (almost) always male.

Historically, so are most cartoon characters in general (though there have been a few well-liked cartoon gals who weren't in support roles since the 80s, like Daria and the Power Puff Girls).

Given that most kids (in the US, at least) spend countless hours watching cartoons during their formative years, I wonder how that affects later expectations and attitudes about the interest level of female characters in general?

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As a child I remembered this bothering me, too. For the longest time I assumed The Roadrunner was female (because of the plumes?) When I found out he was a "he" I didn't like the cartoon as much. Same with Tweety Bird.

When I was young, my parents had a female dog (technically a bitch, but she was most un-bitchy). I noticed that other people used male pronouns by default -- sometimes even after I'd used female ones.

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Native speakers of languages that have gendered words do this. My boyfriend who is a native Spanish speakers calls my dog "he" at times even though he's well aware she's a she, because perro is gendered to male. This doesn't excuse English speakers, though. In my dealings with dogs, I go the other way, assuming the dog is female most of the time (if I can't see its genitalia.)

Actually, I think Regency fiction has the reverse trope (don't ask--I read way too much of it when I was younger), but almost always the hero has an enormous, speedy and tremendously intelligent gelding, while he presents the heroine with a "beautiful, spirited little mare." I don't know that that annoys me too much, but it happens fairly often.

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To be fair, if the heroine is petite, she's going to fit a petite horse better, and mares are smaller than male horses. I was the best fit for my stable's Arabian mare than its gelded thoroughbreds, for example. In real life, I'd do better with a pony than a horse.

One of the tropes I hate is the villain kidnapping the hero's wife/female child/girlfriend to force them into action.

Lakey said:

That's hilarious. So Smurf society lives in villages segregated by sex? That raises so many questions. How did Smurfette come to live in the male village? How is it that she did not even know that a female village exists? Do any of the male Smurfs know? If so, why didn't they tell her? Do Smurfs reproduce sexually? If so, what practices exist to enable mating between Smurfs from one village and Smurfs from another? Or is THAT why Smurfette lives in the male village?

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS.

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Auugh, no more, I'm just the messenger!

Cobalt Jade said:

As a child I remembered this bothering me, too. For the longest time I assumed The Roadrunner was female (because of the plumes?) When I found out he was a "he" I didn't like the cartoon as much. Same with Tweety Bird.

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Me, too.

Roxxsmom said:

Zootopia was a breath of fresh air in that respect, as it had a female protagonist and villain.

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I took my twins to see this movie....I just about died laughing when they go to the dmv....omg....my kids didn't get the humor but that scene alone was worth it!

Smurfs....well...smurfette was a creation of gargamal or whatever his name was...she was sent to be his spy or something and became good. What little girl didn't love smurfette, and as a 8yr old girl I never even questioned why there was one girl in the village, I only wished I could live in that village with it's cute little mushroom houses and giant flowers. But yes lot's of males in cartoons, even carebears is mainly male, the muppets, transformers, mickey mouse etc. Even watching the stupid cartoons my kids like is made up of mostly male characters.

Oh I know a cartoon that was pretty equal in male/female....Scooby-Doo Yes scooby was male but 2 females were major roles on the cast, although they are a great example of stereo-typing, the smart one has thick glasses and is short and not as attractive, shaggy...well do I have to explain shaggy? But again as a kid I never put any thought into those things.

Jan74 said:

I took my twins to see this movie....I just about died laughing when they go to the dmv....omg....my kids didn't get the humor but that scene alone was worth it!

Smurfs....well...smurfette was a creation of gargamal or whatever his name was...she was sent to be his spy or something and became good. What little girl didn't love smurfette, and as a 8yr old girl I never even questioned why there was one girl in the village, I only wished I could live in that village with it's cute little mushroom houses and giant flowers. But yes lot's of males in cartoons, even carebears is mainly male, the muppets, transformers, mickey mouse etc. Even watching the stupid cartoons my kids like is made up of mostly male characters.

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And even Smurfette is a female island in a sea of male smurfs. In fact, the all-too-common phenomenon of having a single female character in an otherwise all-male cast is called the "smurfette principle."

Cobalt Jade said:

As a child I remembered this bothering me, too. For the longest time I assumed The Roadrunner was female (because of the plumes?) When I found out he was a "he" I didn't like the cartoon as much. Same with Tweety Bird.

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... Wait, Tweety Bird is a he

Cobalt Jade said:

Native speakers of languages that have gendered words do this. My boyfriend who is a native Spanish speakers calls my dog "he" at times even though he's well aware she's a she, because perro is gendered to male. This doesn't excuse English speakers, though. In my dealings with dogs, I go the other way, assuming the dog is female most of the time (if I can't see its genitalia.)

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I ran across this when I was adopting my first dog from a shelter. She was female, but the volunteer who was helping me with the adoption was from Germany, and he kept referring to her as "he." I understood that gender has nothing to do with sex or identity in the German language, but still it was weird to hear the guy saying things like, "He will quickly learn to love you!" It's interesting that English is so influenced by German, yet we've almost completely dispensed with gendered words. French is a gendered language too, isn't it, so where did this come from in English?

I'll bet AW Moderator knows!

Dogs don't care about biological sex and gender roles as we do, of course, but there are some subtle overall differences in appearance and behavior between males and females. I assume German dog breeders know the difference between male and female dogs even if their language doesn't differentiate. In Spanish, you call a male dog "el perro," and a female dog "la perra" when the animal's sex is relevant, which is a common pattern for animal names that lack sex specific words (like vaca vs toro) in Spanish (as in the "Gata Loca" song). But German doesn't appear to call female dogs "hundas" or anything like that. Or so I've been told. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm no linguist.

However, my young dog's agility trainer keeps referring to my boy dog as "she," which is amusing, because his name is "Austin" (definitely a boy's name), and he looks very masculine too, with a large head. And he has short fur, so his male anatomy is apparent. I think it's because all her dogs have been female, so she defaults to thinking of dogs as girls.

The thing is, cartoon dogs can have female voice actors to make their gender apparent, and be referred to as "she," but not be white and fluffy or have ribbons and so on. That would likely make them appealing to boys who have been conditioned to loathe pink things and ribbons and bows (think how many dads and some moms react when a baby boy reaches for a doll, or something pink or flowery), but it might appeal to many little girls too, since many of them aren't all about ruffles and bows, except when they're very dressed up, either. Or there could be a variety of girl dogs, some with pink collars but some not.

Of course, real-life dogs don't associate color with sex, and they likely can't see pink anyway (being red-green color blind).

Roxxsmom said:

And even Smurfette is a female island in a sea of male smurfs. In fact, the all-too-common phenomenon of having a single female character in an otherwise all-male cast is called the "smurfette principle."

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Thanks....I had no idea there was an actual reference to that.

Keithy said:

I don't know if this is a trope, but why does "Fantasy" automatically mean "Stories set in a faux-medieval world with dragons/elves/magic etc"?

There are other settings... or (gasp) create your own.

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Er, anyone who thinks that doesn't read enough fantasy!

These days, there's lots of urban fantasy (set in the present day), steam-punk (set in pseudo-VictorianEngland), and books set in wildly non-Tolkienesque lands.

I want to go stuff Alif the Unseen into the hands of anyone who thinks that. Mainly because it will bash their assumptions right out the window, but also because it's a really good book.

Re Smurfette: It is very clear the Smurfs have a society like that of ants, bees, and other social insects. The males (both workers and drones) are all waiting for Smurfette to mature, after which a mad mating competition will ensue, and the winner fly off with the Queen to start a new colony.