Tenses in a flashback

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Nonicks

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Hi guys!

The narrator tells about something that happened in the past. When she first met the sidekick they weren't speaking. So I have this sentence:

When he had arrived at the orphanage—we were both twelve—I hadn’t been speaking with him.

My question is about the second half of the sentence (I assume "had arrived" is correct since this indicates the beginning of the flashback). Should it be " hadn’t been speaking" or "wasn't speaking" or "didn't speak"?

Thanks in advance!
 

cornflake

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She hadn't been speaking with him since when? I don't know why you've got the arrived in pp instead of past?
 

Bufty

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Agree with Cornflake.

I would re-phrase the sentence- it's a bit of a meaningless jumble at the moment.

If you first meet someone, of course you wouldn't have been speaking to them before.

What exactly is it you're trying to get across to the reader?
 
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Nonicks

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I mean, he arrived to the orphanage (long ago), and she met him but didn’t like him at first, but after a while they became friends.
 

Bufty

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OK. Then say that. Note that it should be he arrived 'at' the orphanage, not 'to'.

Just a suggestion. It may not fit what you want but simplicity usually makes the meaning clear.

- James and I met at the orphanage as twelve-year-olds. I didn't like him at first, but we gradually became friends. (Then go straight on with the event or events you are recalling. Don't over-complicate things with spreading 'had' all over the place. You may need one 'had', somewhere, if you wish to emphasise that we are back then so to speak, but then stick with simple past tense. You have already set the scene) We had (even this single 'had' is not really needed at all) bumped into each other one Thursday morning as I was leaving the breakfast hall. ........Now continue in simple past tense.

I mean, he arrived to the orphanage (long ago), and she met him but didn’t like him at first, but after a while they became friends.
 
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Curlz

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It's "when we arrived at..." because that defines the moment of time you're talking about. Example of usage of "had" for past events: "We had already arrived when she came to visit the orphanage" uses "had" because the defining moment is the moment where she comes and the arrival happened before that.
In your case: "We had both been twelve when we arrived at the orphanage" also makes sense.
I'm still not sure what you mean with the last part - they knew each other before the arrival, but were cross and did not speak to each other, or they didn't knew each other at all and neither wanted to talk to a stranger?
"We had both been twelve when we arrived at the orphanage and I hadn't spoken to him for a year"
or
We had both been twelve when we arrived at the orphanage but we hadn't been on speaking terms."
or
"We had both been twelve when we arrived at the orphanage, although we hadn't spoken to each other yet."
etc, etc
 
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BethS

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Can't improve on Bufty's suggestion.

OP, I found this confusing about your explanation:

When she first met the sidekick they weren't speaking

My response is: Of course they weren't speaking. How could they be if they only just met and hadn't known each other before? So I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.
 

ArtsyAmy

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Hi, Nonicks!

Seems there's a couple of issues here. The tense issue and the confusion about not speaking when they met.

Is your sentence part of a flashback passage? If your story is told primarily in present tense, you could start your flashback passage in past tense and stay in past tense (no need for past perfect tense). If your story is told primarily in past tense, you could start your flashback in past perfect (the change in tense would indicate it's a flashback), then ease into simple past (repeated uses of had and have that are unnecessary can be distracting and bog down the story). Then when you return to your main story, you'll somehow have to indicate that.

If your story is told in past tense, and you have just one "flashback" sentence rather than a flashback passage, and the sentence has two verbs, I think you'd be fine with pp for the first verb and p for the second, or you could use pp for both. Which you choose could be a matter of style. But I agree you'll need to change the sentence from what you have now--the not speaking when they met is confusing. Also, keep in mind that "not speaking" could mean they had yet to speak to each other or that they were angry with each other and therefore not speaking. Maybe some of this is clear in the larger context of your story. :)
 
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cornflake

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Because she's speaking about something happened in the distant past... according to this article: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/flashbacks-in-books

I think you're confused about pp. You use if mostly for 'closed book' sort of situations, in which the past you're speaking about is within a defined time frame - the difference between: Bob swam at the aquatic center every Tuesday; and: Bob had swum at the aquatic center every Tuesday until it was stomped to rubble by Godzilla. The latter is a period within a defined frame. If you've established that the orphanage thing was some defined period of her life, from ages X to Y, then you might use it in discussing that, separate from some other period in the past.

It can also be used for 'distant past' but that's not distant past when you were 12, that's distant past like Roman times.
 

Curlz

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Past perfect is for description of past events that happened before other past events:
past perfect -- past simple -- present -- future--

So, when the narrative is in past tense (It was a dark and stormy night, I was walking through the woods), any flashback would be about events happening in a time even further back in the past, i.e. before the moment when "I was walking in the woods". So: " I was walking through the woods, swearing aloud. I had left my torch in the car. " (I left my torch before I walked in the woods, hence the past perfect). Or "I was walking through the woods, alone and scared. We had left the house early, had dinner at twelve, then the zombies had come and eaten everybody."

But in order to be able to find the proper tenses for "When he had arrived at the orphanage—we were both twelve—I hadn’t been speaking with him.", we'll need to know what events exactly you want to describe. And that's not clear at all:
" hadn’t been speaking" = we haven't been on speaking terms for a while (you'll need to state the time period)
or "wasn't speaking" = was not able to speak, mute, shell shocked etc
or "didn't speak" = did not want to speak, shy
Which of these you want?
 

Bufty

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Did you miss this response by the OP in post#5, Curlz?

I mean, he arrived to the orphanage (long ago), and she met him but didn’t like him at first, but after a while they became friends.
 
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