Writers -- Opinions Appreciated!

vicky271 · Apr 21, 2017

A few months ago, a story started to take form. An idea was nagging and nagging, but since the concept has changed. It is no longer following the original plan (This is consistent).

The main characters have started to take form. But the lack of major conflict and opposing villain is driving me nuts. I've taken to researching themes in hope of finding one that will dominate over the dozens of themes that have found a place in my story in one way or another. Unfortunately, my research hasn't done anything. I can't find a theme. But I know i need one to continue. Meanings have guided the stories direction thus far.

One of the frustrating pieces is my unwillingness to allow coincidence to dictate everything (including major points in the story). Or allowing myself to give small conflicts more purpose than necessary. As you can see, i'm not sure what i want.

I'd like opinions. Am I over-thinking this? Am I causing more stress than necessary? Should I approach this differently?

Please share any thoughts! I'd greatly appreciate it!

Lakey · Apr 21, 2017

I'm not sure I have helpful advice, just sympathy. I was in a very similar position when I got the seed of the idea for my current project. I also felt that I had no conflict, I had no story, I just had characters and setting, and what good would that be? How could I get a novel out of that?

I'm not really sure when all that changed, but I just kept hammering away at it, thinking about it, testing out different scenarios until things started falling into place. I had a major revelation one day about my two main characters that changed everything. I had originally imagined them with some romantic history, and when I removed that element, it opened up several ways to make their interactions in the story's present much more complex and interesting. I don't know what sparked that revelation but it was a real zOMG moment.

What you say about refusing to allow coincidence to dictate your story - this is a good instinct, I think. It occurred to me one day that what I really wanted was not just for things to happen to my characters, but for things to happen to them as consequences of decisions they make. I have made a conscious effort to have my characters make decisions that turn out badly, and I still think about this all the time. Maybe thinking about your story in those terms will help you, too.

When I asked an author friend of mine about coming up with story ideas, she said, "collect your main characters and give them a problem to solve. It can be a death or an awful neighbor or a kid who doesn't fit in. Whatever. Draw them and their problem carefully. Let them solve it or not. There's your story."

MaeZe · Apr 21, 2017

I found Lisa Cron's Wired for Story very useful and now I see she has a new book out on the very thing you are asking.

Story Genius: How to Use Brain Science to Go Beyond Outlining and Write a Riveting Novel (Before You Waste Three Years Writing 327 Pages That Go Nowhere)

Jason · Apr 21, 2017

MaeZe said:
I found Lisa Cron's Wired for Story very useful and now I see she has a new book out on the very thing you are asking.

Story Genius: How to Use Brain Science to Go Beyond Outlining and Write a Riveting Novel (Before You Waste Three Years Writing 327 Pages That Go Nowhere)

Sounds like an interesting read, especially given this tease:

"The prevailing wisdom in the writing community is that there are just two ways around this problem: pantsing (winging it) and plotting (focusing on the external plot). Story coach Lisa Cron has spent decades discovering why these methods rarely work..."

Layla Nahar · Apr 21, 2017

V - all this resonates with me. I *have* written a few stories, so I know my brain can produce them - but mostly I get a person in situation that is at once pregnant with possibility and in stasis - for me I just fail to find an intuitive lead that shows the story that I think is in there.

Right now I'm thinking that it may be that my rate of vivid, tantalizing *static* ideas is much higher than my rate of 'storyable' (or 'more story-obvious'?) ideas, and to just keep moving - that is, if I can't get a certain idea to start naturally generating a series of events, to just leave it and go on to the next idea, and keep doing this till I happen upon an idea that will generate a story.

One of the more fruitful ideas I'm working on now is something that I was kind of stuck with a year of two back when it first showed up.

vicky271 · Apr 21, 2017

Glad to see this is a common problem!

Lakey said:
I'm not sure I have helpful advice, just sympathy. I was in a very similar position when I got the seed of the idea for my current project. I also felt that I had no conflict, I had no story, I just had characters and setting, and what good would that be? How could I get a novel out of that?

I'm not really sure when all that changed, but I just kept hammering away at it, thinking about it, testing out different scenarios until things started falling into place. I had a major revelation one day about my two main characters that changed everything. I had originally imagined them with some romantic history, and when I removed that element, it opened up several ways to make their interactions in the story's present much more complex and interesting. I don't know what sparked that revelation but it was a real zOMG moment.

What you say about refusing to allow coincidence to dictate your story - this is a good instinct, I think. It occurred to me one day that what I really wanted was not just for things to happen to my characters, but for things to happen to them as consequences of decisions they make. I have made a conscious effort to have my characters make decisions that turn out badly, and I still think about this all the time. Maybe thinking about your story in those terms will help you, too.

When I asked an author friend of mine about coming up with story ideas, she said, "collect your main characters and give them a problem to solve. It can be a death or an awful neighbor or a kid who doesn't fit in. Whatever. Draw them and their problem carefully. Let them solve it or not. There's your story."

Thank you for sharing

Yes! I have heard of that! The problem isn't finding conflicts, but discovering one worthy of a story. Something small and insignificant will feel drastically unnatural when the reader discovers it later in the story.

MaeZe said:
I found Lisa Cron's Wired for Story very useful and now I see she has a new book out on the very thing you are asking.

Story Genius: How to Use Brain Science to Go Beyond Outlining and Write a Riveting Novel (Before You Waste Three Years Writing 327 Pages That Go Nowhere)

I'll definitely check it out!

Layla Nahar said:
V - all this resonates with me. I *have* written a few stories, so I know my brain can produce them - but mostly I get a person in situation that is at once pregnant with possibility and in stasis - for me I just fail to find an intuitive lead that shows the story that I think is in there.

Right now I'm thinking that it may be that my rate of vivid, tantalizing *static* ideas is much higher than my rate of 'storyable' (or 'more story-obvious'?) ideas, and to just keep moving - that is, if I can't get a certain idea to start naturally generating a series of events, to just leave it and go on to the next idea, and keep doing this till I happen upon an idea that will generate a story.

One of the more fruitful ideas I'm working on now is something that I was kind of stuck with a year of two back when it first showed up.

This problem is the reason why people stick with the cliche.

BethS · Apr 21, 2017

vicky271 said:
But the lack of major conflict and opposing villain is driving me nuts.

I suspect this is what you need to focus on. Put themes on the back burner for the moment; they'll emerge naturally once you get on the right track. I think you need to go back to square one and figure out what your main character wants more than anything, what s/he will do to get it, and what obstacles you might put in his/her path. The obstacles can start small and build up, and/or there can be one major one that seems unsurmountable. The obstacle(s) can take the form of a villain or villains, but that's not necessarily required. And don't underestimate the value of small conflicts, because these can lead to bigger ones. One technique is to let the resolution of one conflict be the cause of another. Also, you can use a coincidence to start a conflict, but never use it to resolve it.

Bottom line, though--if you don't have a character with a main conflict that's driving the story, then you don't really have a story at all. And that may be what you're actually struggling with.

Layla Nahar · Apr 22, 2017

Want to add that what Lakey and BethS said were game-changers for me: the importance of having a clear story-problem and of having solutions to one problem lead to another problem, and seeing the role of conflict* in a story. Internal conflict will ad a lot of flavor to a story, but only an external conflict will cause events to happen.

*I had my zomg moment about conflict studying Twilight. The characters are full of internal conflict, but you can see how it's the external ones that drive events.

BethS · Apr 22, 2017

Layla Nahar said:
Internal conflict will ad a lot of flavor to a story, but only an external conflict will cause events to happen.

Internal conflict can be a story-driver, too. It can lead characters to do all sorts of reckless, impulsive, interesting things that have consequences.

Lakey · Apr 22, 2017

BethS said:
Also, you can use a coincidence to start a conflict, but never use it to resolve it.

Oh, I like this concisely formulated insight. Keeping this one in my notes.

Layla Nahar · Apr 22, 2017

BethS said:
Internal conflict can be a story-driver, too. It can lead characters to do all sorts of reckless, impulsive, interesting things that have consequences.

I agree with part of this, but it seems to me that internal conflict can only raise the stakes. I have yet to see an example of a story that got started and was sustained by what I think of as internal conflict. People talk a lot about Hamlet being full of internal conflict, but I would say that what really moves the story is Hamlet's desire to avenge his father's death, vs his uncle's desire to keep the throne. For internal conflict salting the stew, I think of how Edgar Cullen's desire to for the MC (Stella? what was her name... in Twilight) was in conflict with his idea that he was a danger to her. It added *lots* of complication to the basic conflict - which would be - I think - the MCs desire to be with Edgar ASAP & his desire to put it off.

Does that make sense?

Layla Nahar · Apr 22, 2017

And for the sake of open-ness, I am actually struggling with an inert situation right now. I have two people, one human, one magical. She's in love but won't use her magic to make him fall in love with her. He's ... well, she's in his friend zone. In order for this situation to become a true story, it needs *some* change. I think that whatever will affect this status quo will be something external to her in some way.

Cobalt Jade · Apr 22, 2017

This is tough. Have you done any world-building? Often conflict comes out of that.

AW Admin · Apr 22, 2017

I've moved this to RT where I think more members are likely to see it.

Ari Meermans · Apr 22, 2017

It sounds like you're having trouble discovering your story problem. Have you tried boiling down your ideas into a plot statement (premise)? This is where you'd employ your who, what if, and why questions.

An example of this that is often used—with many variants—because it's so obvious and simple: When a big-city afraid-of-the-water cop becomes the chief of police of a small coastal town he discovers a giant man-eating shark is terrorizing the beach and realizes he must hunt down the predator to save his town. (Jaws)

1. Who? Your MC. (In the example, the who is a former big-city cop now chief of police of a small coastal town.)
2. What if he discovers a problem only he can solve, and furthermore it's a problem for which he is wholly unprepared? (Oh, golly, talk about a fish out of the water—he's afraid of the water and can't swim.)
2. Why must he hunt down the shark? (The town's mayor is opposed to the negative press if the problem becomes known and its inevitable effect on tourism, not to mention people are dying.)
3. What must he overcome? (His fear of the water, as well as an oppositional mayor.)
4. What are his additional challenges? (Finding a shark expert and a charter captain crazy enough to take on the challenge.)

Find your story problem, because without that there is no story.

ETA: Wanted to add that you already have your characters, so you might possibly start with your MC's biggest fear. That one thing she/he never wants to have to face. Make her face it. Big time.

Gillhoughly · Apr 22, 2017

Yes, you are overthinking, especially with this theme thing. You're writing a story, not an analysis for English class. Focus on the characters. Ask each of them these two questions and things should resolve themselves in time.

1. What does the character want? (Really want, and it can't be a chocolate shake.)

2. How far will the character go to get it? (One of them is bound to go too far.)

Example: I had an otherwise nice female character with a genius for numbers working for a bad guy. She was well aware that he was a bad guy, but still worked for and was loyal to him. Until I asked her question #1, "what does she want?" I could not justify her being a nice person. Then I figured out that her genius for numbers got her bullied as a child and all through school. It seemed the one thing she wanted was someone to respect her, which the bad guy did. He was smart that way. Her stubborn loyalty to him made for dandy plot complications.

She was willing to go quite far to protect him, but not to the point of getting herself killed.

Sigma · Apr 22, 2017

vicky271 said:
A few months ago, a story started to take form. An idea was nagging and nagging, but since the concept has changed. It is no longer following the original plan (This is consistent).

The main characters have started to take form. But the lack of major conflict and opposing villain is driving me nuts. I've taken to researching themes in hope of finding one that will dominate over the dozens of themes that have found a place in my story in one way or another. Unfortunately, my research hasn't done anything. I can't find a theme. But I know i need one to continue. Meanings have guided the stories direction thus far.

One of the frustrating pieces is my unwillingness to allow coincidence to dictate everything (including major points in the story). Or allowing myself to give small conflicts more purpose than necessary. As you can see, i'm not sure what i want.

I'd like opinions. Am I over-thinking this? Am I causing more stress than necessary? Should I approach this differently?

Please share any thoughts! I'd greatly appreciate it!

Hi, if you're asking what I think you're asking, it's a good question. Let me clarify first. I am under the belief that most stories need some sort of machinery that drives it, or glue that holds everything together. It doesn't necessarily have to be something overt, like a murder. It could very well be something like the MC's insecurity, or even just serendipity, but it has to have presence. Is this the sort of thing you're looking for in your story?

morngnstar · Apr 22, 2017

Do you have any elements of a story? An inciting incident maybe? I find a story can crystallize from any seed, but if all you have is some entertaining characters adventuring, then you need to find a story for them to inhabit. Maybe a story idea will occur to you at another time, and you can cast these characters in it.

morngnstar · Apr 22, 2017

Layla Nahar said:
And for the sake of open-ness, I am actually struggling with an inert situation right now. I have two people, one human, one magical. She's in love but won't use her magic to make him fall in love with her. He's ... well, she's in his friend zone. In order for this situation to become a true story, it needs *some* change. I think that whatever will affect this status quo will be something external to her in some way.

That's sort of an obvious one. You know exactly what's blocking you, so knock it down. Make her user her magic to make him fall in love. Of course I imagine you would say that defeats the whole point. It conflicts with your themse. But see what happens if you let yourself imagine that.

Or maybe she just bends the rules. Maybe she uses magic not to control his mind and heart, but just to create a situation ripe for him to fall in love with her. Or add a villain: another magical woman without such scruples who does use her magic to make him fall in love with her, and your heroine has to stop her, possibly by using magic, possibly otherwise.

Underdawg47 · Apr 22, 2017

Having interesting characters developed sounds like a good start to me. People live their lives in the hope that nothing bad will happen, but unexpected things always happen to all of us. An incident usually sparks some type of conflict and anyone can become the villain and anyone can become the victim or the hero. Pick any random event and it can escalate depending on how your characters react.

Manuel Royal · Apr 24, 2017

I've found Uncle Jim's "positional chess" analogy useful. (Having a lot of different elements out on the "board"; finding unplanned combinations and conflicts.)

For me it always starts with characters and themes; though often the themes change once the characters start talking. Good luck!

DancingMaenid · Apr 24, 2017

Layla Nahar said:
I agree with part of this, but it seems to me that internal conflict can only raise the stakes. I have yet to see an example of a story that got started and was sustained by what I think of as internal conflict. People talk a lot about Hamlet being full of internal conflict, but I would say that what really moves the story is Hamlet's desire to avenge his father's death, vs his uncle's desire to keep the throne. For internal conflict salting the stew, I think of how Edgar Cullen's desire to for the MC (Stella? what was her name... in Twilight) was in conflict with his idea that he was a danger to her. It added *lots* of complication to the basic conflict - which would be - I think - the MCs desire to be with Edgar ASAP & his desire to put it off.

I feel like sometimes when people talk about internal vs. external conflict, they're really thinking in terms of whether there's an external threat that isn't caused by the internal conflict. This is something I struggle with as a sci-fi/fantasy writer sometimes, because there can be some stereotypes about all sci-fi/fantasy having massive external conflicts like alien invasions or quests to defeat evil wizards.

I think the challenge when you're coming at a story from a more character-driven direction is to externalize the conflict instead of necessarily coming up with conflicts that are already external. To use your Hamlet example, I would say that focusing on Hamlet's desire to avenge his father is a form of internal conflict, but it's a conflict that drives the action of the play. It's also rooted in something concrete that happened: Hamlet's father was murdered. So there's a reciprocal relationship--the internal conflict is triggered by action and causes action.

I see advice sometimes that if you're stuck, you should have the worst possible thing happen to the characters. I think this can be a fun brainstorming tool, but I don't think it's great advice, because the "worst thing" might have nothing to do with the story. Maybe better question for plotting purposes would be how can the internal conflict manifest itself in the characters' actions?

vicky271 · Apr 27, 2017

Hey guys! Thank you for the opinions and feedback! I appreciate every bit of advice! I realized today I was overthinking. I need to trust my gut. So, since, it seems the story is starting to work itself out!

Thank you!!!! I appreciate all of you ^^ I love this community. There are so many helpful and supportive individuals!

Layla Nahar · Apr 28, 2017

I need to trust my gut. So, since, it seems the story is starting to work itself out!

^That's awesome!

Writers -- Opinions Appreciated!

vicky271

Lakey

professional dilettante

MaeZe

Jason

Ideas bounce around in my head

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

vicky271

BethS

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

BethS

Lakey

professional dilettante

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller

Cobalt Jade

AW Admin

Ari Meermans

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

Sigma

morngnstar

morngnstar

Underdawg47

Manuel Royal

DancingMaenid

New kid...seven years ago!

vicky271

Layla Nahar

Seashell Seller