Krampus and St. Nicholas

AW Amazon Store

If this site is helpful to you,
Please consider a voluntary subscription to defray ongoing expenses.


 

Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 45 of 45

Thread: Aaron Hernandez dead

  1. #26
    Barricade AW Moderator regdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    To Punish and Enslave
    Posts
    52,273
    Quote Originally Posted by hester View Post
    There's some talk that his family plans to donate his brain for the purpose of finding out if he suffered from CTE--

    Which occurred to me after hearing about the suicide--maybe he was suffering from some behavioral changes due to brain damage?

    He was a hardcore drug user since college, maybe even before that. I wouldn't be too quick to blame football related brain injury as much as sociopathic tendencies and meth use.
    My Blog-Updated on 10/9/14 An Open Letter To Hasbro

    Stop by the Weekend Progress Report to brag about your weekly writing accomplishments

    Help find Tracey Cooeedownunder's sister is missing

  2. #27
    practical experience, FTW
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,519
    I find it still suspicious that there are now suicide notes found. Initially they said there were none, which partly fueled the murder speculation, and now there are notes (plural)?

  3. #28
    Watching the Whales vsrenard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    Posts
    1,244
    I look at these high profile cases as a way to try understanding violence, predations, and possibly mental illness as a whole. Everyone has a story. I might now hear about the girl or guy that didn't see the highlights, but that doesnt mean Mr H's story doesn't have value. As a non-football fan, I was not wowed by his career. I vaguely heard about his arrest and chalked up to more pro sports violence. It wasn't until his apparent suicide that I read his story in full. It made me sad. And I don't want to be sad about him He had chances denied to so many wanting to rise from their circumstances. And yeah, his circumstances don't seem all that bad.

    I don't know his whole story. But the fact he chose this life given all of his options makes me sad for him as a human being. And I kind of feel like crap for it. His victim(s) deserved better. But for whatever reasons, he didn't even seem to know 'better' for himself.
    "...To you I am nothing more than a fox like a hundred thousand other foxes. But if you tame me, then we shall need each other. To me, you will be unique in all the world. To you, I shall be unique in all the world...” ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

    Watermark: A Novel of the Middle Ages

  4. #29
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    13,873
    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    Not really. Hernandez was serving life with no parole for a murder he committed because Odin Loyd mentioned the double homicide to someone. The evidence in the double homicide was nowhere near strong enough for a conviction, just the allegation. It was hearsay and circumstantial. Proof was the double acquittal. The murder of Odin Loyd was a step by step model for how to leave an evidence trail a mile wide, guaranteeing getting get caught and convicted of murder. Had he not killed Loyd it is possible Hernandez never would have stood trial for the double homicide or beaten the charges as he did.

    He is alleged to have killed those 2 men for spilling a drink of him in a nightclub. Hernandez was a violent, sociopath, who was a decade long thug, gang member and criminal. Piss on his football accomplishments.
    Yeah, I know what he was -- nothing in his history or behaviour suggests to me he'd be likely to be suicidal. He has always seemed a fairly entirely self-involved, overly-entitled, remorseless person with little capacity for empathy or introspection. Suicide seems out of character. That everyone knows he did the crime he was serving for doesn't mean he didn't think he'd get off for it eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    He was a hardcore drug user since college, maybe even before that. I wouldn't be too quick to blame football related brain injury as much as sociopathic tendencies and meth use.
    To be fair, he was playing football that long tii.

    Quote Originally Posted by chompers View Post
    I find it still suspicious that there are now suicide notes found. Initially they said there were none, which partly fueled the murder speculation, and now there are notes (plural)?
    Yeeeah. It's a cell. It's really not that hard to search. Still very suspicious.

  5. #30
    practical experience, FTW
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The right earlobe of North America
    Posts
    35,943
    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    He is no longer a convicted murderer.

    Under Massachusetts law, so I'm told, if you die while your conviction is under appeal, the conviction goes away. His murder convictions were under automatic appeal, so they will likely be vacated. That primarily affects any civil cases; they won't be able to say he was convicted of the crime.
    Nothing about this would affect a wrongful death civil suit, should one be brought (probably unlikely). O.J. Simpson was acquitted of the murders of his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, but the Goldmans successfully sued him anyway for wrongful death.

    caw
    Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.

    -- Terry Pratchett

  6. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,457
    Quote Originally Posted by blacbird View Post
    Nothing about this would affect a wrongful death civil suit, should one be brought (probably unlikely). O.J. Simpson was acquitted of the murders of his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, but the Goldmans successfully sued him anyway for wrongful death.

    caw
    I don't think it will make a wrongful death suit impossible, but it will make it more difficult. If they could start with the knowledge that he'd already been convicted of the murder, that's pretty strong evidence that he committed the wrongful act. But without that conviction, they have to establish that he committed the act as part of the civil suit. Not insurmountable, but an extra element to deal with.

  7. #32
    Barricade AW Moderator regdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    To Punish and Enslave
    Posts
    52,273
    Quote Originally Posted by cornflake View Post
    Yeah, I know what he was -- nothing in his history or behaviour suggests to me he'd be likely to be suicidal. He has always seemed a fairly entirely self-involved, overly-entitled, remorseless person with little capacity for empathy or introspection. Suicide seems out of character. That everyone knows he did the crime he was serving for doesn't mean he didn't think he'd get off for it eventually.

    This is where we differ. I can absolutely see why he killed himself. He got away with shooting a man in the face. He had gotten away with shooting and killing 2 men.

    He lost his life of wealth and privilege and was going to spend the rest of his life in prison because he killed a man for mentioning a double murder he was later acquitted of. Had he not killed Loyd he may never even have stood trial for the double murders.

    Look at Ray Lewis, implicated in murder, plead guilty to obstruction of justice in those murders, but free from jail and still lauded as a hero. Since there is no concrete proof Hernandez was the trigger man who killed those 2 men, even if Odin Loyd had testified against him, Hernandez's trial may very well have ended the same way. Instead, Hernandez kills Loyd, leaves enough evidence that there was no way he couldn't be convicted and had to spend the rest of life in prison.

    If he hadn't killed Odin Loyd in all probability Aaron Hernandez would be a free man.
    My Blog-Updated on 10/9/14 An Open Letter To Hasbro

    Stop by the Weekend Progress Report to brag about your weekly writing accomplishments

    Help find Tracey Cooeedownunder's sister is missing

  8. #33
    People are not wearing enough hats JJ Litke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    6,462
    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    This is where we differ. I can absolutely see why he killed himself. He got away with shooting a man in the face. He had gotten away with shooting and killing 2 men.

    He lost his life of wealth and privilege and was going to spend the rest of his life in prison because he killed a man for mentioning a double murder he was later acquitted of. Had he not killed Loyd he may never even have stood trial for the double murders.

    Look at Ray Lewis, implicated in murder, plead guilty to obstruction of justice in those murders, but free from jail and still lauded as a hero. Since there is no concrete proof Hernandez was the trigger man who killed those 2 men, even if Odin Loyd had testified against him, Hernandez's trial may very well have ended the same way. Instead, Hernandez kills Loyd, leaves enough evidence that there was no way he couldn't be convicted and had to spend the rest of life in prison.

    If he hadn't killed Odin Loyd in all probability Aaron Hernandez would be a free man.
    I'm not following how any of this leads to evidence of suicide. He'd just been acquitted on the other charges, and the other case was on appeal.
    The Invisible Box, Apex Magazine issue #92
    When the Planets Left
    , Cast of Wonders episode 210
    Harbinie of Death
    , Farstrider Magazine issue #2
    jjlitke.com

  9. #34
    Barricade AW Moderator regdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    To Punish and Enslave
    Posts
    52,273
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Litke View Post
    I'm not following how any of this leads to evidence of suicide. He'd just been acquitted on the other charges, and the other case was on appeal.

    There was little to no chance of his conviction being overturned, due to the overwhelming provable evidence against him. A quick summation of why Hernandez was convicted.

    His and Odin Loyd's cellphone records established they were together at the time of the murder. Hernandez rented an SUV, left the GPS on, which tracked Hernandez to Loyd's house, to the vacant lot where Loyd's body was found, and then back to Hernandez's house, which was roughly 100 yards from where the murder took place. Loyd and Hernandez didn't live anywhere near each other. Loyd was in the Boston area, Hernandez close to the Rhode Island border.

    Two people heard the gun shots and noted the time. The time frame placed Hernandez's rented SUV at the vacant lot during that time. The day of the murder Hernandez's in house closed circuit security cameras recorded him leaving the house with a gun. The day after the murder it recorded his girlfriend bundling up a huge trashbag and taking it out. The housekeeper testified during the length of her employment never once did the girlfriend even empty a full trash bucket, much less take out trash.

    Add to that his girlfriend swearing under oath she and Hernandez never talked about the murder. Not even in the context of "holy crap someone was killed near our house." Or that the murder victim was dating the sister of Hernandez's girlfriend. Odd things to not discuss.


    I believe he committed suicide for the following reasons. He was never getting out of prison. He was in prison because he killed a man to avoid going to prison for killing 2 different men. He was acquitted of killing those 2 men. Had he not killed Odin Loyd, Hernandez would probably never have gone to prison, but would still be in the NFL raking in millions. A compelling reason to end his own life.
    My Blog-Updated on 10/9/14 An Open Letter To Hasbro

    Stop by the Weekend Progress Report to brag about your weekly writing accomplishments

    Help find Tracey Cooeedownunder's sister is missing

  10. #35
    People are not wearing enough hats JJ Litke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Austin
    Posts
    6,462
    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    There was little to no chance of his conviction being overturned, due to the overwhelming provable evidence against him. A quick summation of why Hernandez was convicted.

    His and Odin Loyd's cellphone records established they were together at the time of the murder. Hernandez rented an SUV, left the GPS on, which tracked Hernandez to Loyd's house, to the vacant lot where Loyd's body was found, and then back to Hernandez's house, which was roughly 100 yards from where the murder took place. Loyd and Hernandez didn't live anywhere near each other. Loyd was in the Boston area, Hernandez close to the Rhode Island border.

    Two people heard the gun shots and noted the time. The time frame placed Hernandez's rented SUV at the vacant lot during that time. The day of the murder Hernandez's in house closed circuit security cameras recorded him leaving the house with a gun. The day after the murder it recorded his girlfriend bundling up a huge trashbag and taking it out. The housekeeper testified during the length of her employment never once did the girlfriend even empty a full trash bucket, much less take out trash.

    Add to that his girlfriend swearing under oath she and Hernandez never talked about the murder. Not even in the context of "holy crap someone was killed near our house." Or that the murder victim was dating the sister of Hernandez's girlfriend. Odd things to not discuss.


    I believe he committed suicide for the following reasons. He was never getting out of prison. He was in prison because he killed a man to avoid going to prison for killing 2 different men. He was acquitted of killing those 2 men. Had he not killed Odin Loyd, Hernandez would probably never have gone to prison, but would still be in the NFL raking in millions. A compelling reason to end his own life.
    I'm not questioning that he's guilty. I'm questioning that a narcissist would kill himself, and that the circumstances aren't suspicion-free. So maybe he did, but as I said before, it's disturbing to me that once a prison death is labeled suicide, it's neatly dismissed without much inquiry.
    The Invisible Box, Apex Magazine issue #92
    When the Planets Left
    , Cast of Wonders episode 210
    Harbinie of Death
    , Farstrider Magazine issue #2
    jjlitke.com

  11. #36
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    right here
    Posts
    28,078
    Even assuming he was clinically narcissistic, that personalty trait has a complex relationship with suicide. It can be protective or aggravating. During a collapse of status it can be a risk factor. basically it is pretty much impossible to point to any trait and say is it blanket protective.
    Emily Veinglory

  12. #37
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    13,873
    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    There was little to no chance of his conviction being overturned, due to the overwhelming provable evidence against him. A quick summation of why Hernandez was convicted.

    His and Odin Loyd's cellphone records established they were together at the time of the murder. Hernandez rented an SUV, left the GPS on, which tracked Hernandez to Loyd's house, to the vacant lot where Loyd's body was found, and then back to Hernandez's house, which was roughly 100 yards from where the murder took place. Loyd and Hernandez didn't live anywhere near each other. Loyd was in the Boston area, Hernandez close to the Rhode Island border.

    Two people heard the gun shots and noted the time. The time frame placed Hernandez's rented SUV at the vacant lot during that time. The day of the murder Hernandez's in house closed circuit security cameras recorded him leaving the house with a gun. The day after the murder it recorded his girlfriend bundling up a huge trashbag and taking it out. The housekeeper testified during the length of her employment never once did the girlfriend even empty a full trash bucket, much less take out trash.

    Add to that his girlfriend swearing under oath she and Hernandez never talked about the murder. Not even in the context of "holy crap someone was killed near our house." Or that the murder victim was dating the sister of Hernandez's girlfriend. Odd things to not discuss.


    I believe he committed suicide for the following reasons. He was never getting out of prison. He was in prison because he killed a man to avoid going to prison for killing 2 different men. He was acquitted of killing those 2 men. Had he not killed Odin Loyd, Hernandez would probably never have gone to prison, but would still be in the NFL raking in millions. A compelling reason to end his own life.
    I think you're attaching your own reasoning to this.

    You believe he'd never have gotten out because the conviction seems solid and that his life otherwise would have been X not Y, thus this seems depressing enough to warrant suicide.

    That's not necessarily his thinking process at all. There's no reason to think Hernandez didn't absolutely believe he'd get out -- I'd say his crying at the acquittal the other day is demonstration of that belief. If he believed he wasn't getting out, why? His lawyer has been adamant he could get Hernandez off, which seems unlikely on the facts, sure, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. It's not like no one has ever been let out on technical appeals.

    The whole 'he'd have had X life' also presupposes he believed this was his life, to never change, which I see no evidence of.

    As to the civil case, I missed that, but there's no reason a civil case can't go forward and win, as the bird notes. It's a lower standard of proof, and a criminal conviction isn't necessary.

  13. #38
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    The Seattle suburbs
    Posts
    5,427
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Litke View Post
    <snip> the circumstances aren't suspicion-free. So maybe he did, but as I said before, it's disturbing to me that once a prison death is labeled suicide, it's neatly dismissed without much inquiry.
    This is the issue for me, as well. It's damn easy to sweep this stuff under the rug. There are many prisoners people would say "meh" about, but the lack of investigation means people like Sandra Bland can die with no one investigating, too. I can't shrug it off, even if I believed Hernandez deserved to be imprisoned the rest of his life.

  14. #39
    practical experience, FTW
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The right earlobe of North America
    Posts
    35,943
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Litke View Post
    I'm not questioning that he's guilty. I'm questioning that a narcissist would kill himself,
    Read about Christopher Wilder.

    caw
    Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.

    -- Terry Pratchett

  15. #40
    practical experience, FTW cmhbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Green Country, OK
    Posts
    3,506
    Quote Originally Posted by blacbird View Post
    Read about Christopher Wilder.
    The Beauty Queen Killer? It's not clear from the wiki article that he killed himself. The article only says he was shot during a struggle.

  16. #41
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    13,873
    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    The Beauty Queen Killer? It's not clear from the wiki article that he killed himself. The article only says he was shot during a struggle.
    He saw cops coming toward him and openly retrieved a handgun.

  17. #42
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost in space. And meaning.
    Posts
    16,066
    Quote Originally Posted by regdog View Post
    He is alleged to have killed those 2 men for spilling a drink of him in a nightclub. Hernandez was a violent, sociopath, who was a decade long thug, gang member and criminal. Piss on his football accomplishments.
    Agreed. I can kind of understand referring to it as "tragic" if he were someone who did something unique and irreplaceable, something that made the world a better place before he committed his crimes, but sports stars are hardly rare or special. Society pays them well and heaps them with adulation for their skill on the playing field, but they're ultimately replaceable, and most end up being quite forgettable. It might be more poignant if he had been some kind of activist who worked to improve the human condition, bur sadly, athletes who behave like monsters off the field (and have few, if any, redeeming features) seem to be pretty common.

    Note, I think all jails and prisons should be safe, and when prisoners die while in custody someone has been negligent at best. Such deaths should be investigated, no matter how reprehensible the person in question is. But I'm not mourning his loss, let alone considering it tragic.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 04-21-2017 at 11:08 PM.
    Please excuse me, I was raised by wolves.

    My twitter - My FB - My blog

  18. #43
    practical experience, FTW Twick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,813
    I don't think "but things were looking up for him so he wouldn't have committed suicide now" necessarily holds water. People commit suicide for reasons inside, not outside.

    It could be that, after the rush of the acquittal, he started to think about how it didn't make any difference. He's still in jail, and as much as his lawyer talks about the appeal having a good chance, if he were guilty he'd have to know that the evidence against him was still there. After being in jail for four years, depression was a pretty likely companion. It may have hit him all at once what he'd had, and what he'd thrown away.

  19. #44
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Lost in space. And meaning.
    Posts
    16,066
    Quote Originally Posted by Twick View Post
    I don't think "but things were looking up for him so he wouldn't have committed suicide now" necessarily holds water. People commit suicide for reasons inside, not outside.

    It could be that, after the rush of the acquittal, he started to think about how it didn't make any difference. He's still in jail, and as much as his lawyer talks about the appeal having a good chance, if he were guilty he'd have to know that the evidence against him was still there. After being in jail for four years, depression was a pretty likely companion. It may have hit him all at once what he'd had, and what he'd thrown away.
    Could be.

    And sometimes people who are severely depressed will commit suicide when they appear to be recovering (though it's not clear that the recovery process is causative), as the level of their apparent depression lessens. I've no idea if that applies here, or if he was clinically depressed to begin with.
    Please excuse me, I was raised by wolves.

    My twitter - My FB - My blog

  20. #45
    practical experience, FTW
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    The right earlobe of North America
    Posts
    35,943
    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    The Beauty Queen Killer? It's not clear from the wiki article that he killed himself. The article only says he was shot during a struggle.
    He shot himself during the struggle.

    caw
    Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.

    -- Terry Pratchett

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Custom Search