Sweating the small stuff

Morri

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
20
So. I'm a natural-born worrier. I worry, then I over-analyze why I'm worrying and all that there is to worry about. I've just had an unpleasant revelation where I realized my worry shows itself in my writing habits. I get stuck on the smallest, and sometimes stupidest things. It holds me up and I have to spend days or weeks working this one thing out before I feel like I can move on. It can be a plot thing, it can be a characterization thing, it can even be a "I don't know how to describe this guy's clothes so I need to do tons of research on 18th century men's wear' thing.

What do you guys do when you find yourself stuck on something? Do you skip it and keep moving? Does it depend on what stage you are in your writing? I'm working on a first draft (my first first draft) and I know getting it all written is very important, but wouldn't it save me more frustration when editing if I fix this stuff now? I've never finished a project this long so I have no idea.

I've just been working on this particular WIP for a while, and after getting some feedback on the SYW thread I've finally regained the enthusiasm I lost along the way. It sucks to realize the only hold-up now is me.
 

Marlys

Resist. Love. Go outside.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
3,584
Reaction score
979
Location
midwest
For me, doing the fixes as I go saves time and effort in the long run, even if it slows me down temporarily.
 

Ambrosia

Grand Duchess
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 4, 2009
Messages
26,893
Reaction score
7,269
Location
In the Castle, of course.
When you say "worrier" I hear "perfectionist". I'm a recovering perfectionist, myself. I can only tell you what I have discovered in recently finishing my first draft and now doing edits.

I edited every step of the way while I was writing it. I fixed timelines when it became necessary to do so. My book is a fantasy novel and I drew a map so I would have an overview of the area and be able to write more realistic distances and how long it would take to get from point A to point B. I wrote about my characters and even researched pictures of what I imagined they looked like to give them "life".

A lot of what I did was important to writing the story because I was world-building. I think knowing your characters--what they look like, what they wear, what foods they enjoy, what activities they enjoy, etc.--is necessary to write the best story you can. I believe the map was necessary because I often referred to it to make sure the story was true to the world I had created. Fixing the timeline was important to me, because it would have adversely affected later chapters if I hadn't fixed it and I would have likely cried during the edits--having to rewrite and fix so much.

But what wasn't necessary was reading a chapter and then editing it. Reading a paragraph and then editing it. Reading a few more chapters and editing words or sentences as I read. Because you know what? Now that the first draft is finished, I'm still finding things to fix. Things to tweak. Ways to say things differently that I believe have just a tad more impact. I could have saved myself a tremendous amount of time by just writing the book to the end and then editing it.

I didn't understand the advice I had read from other writer's that said write the book to the end and then edit it. I get it now. I believe my next book will go much faster because I won't waste so much time editing as I go. If a timeline gets messed up and I notice it, I'll still fix it. Because it is something major that would stop me cold in continuing the story. But minor things? Not a chance in hell. Never again will I delay reaching the end for this foolishness.

I believe we are always our own worst enemies. That's ok. As long as we learn from our mistakes and go on, we will get there in the end. You know you are a "worrier". Knowing this is the first step. Now you just have to learn from it, overcome it and go on.

You said, "It sucks to realize the only hold-up now is me." I hope you will rethink that statement. Instead of saying it sucks, realize how exciting it is to realize you are the only hold-up. If it was something external, something out of your control, then that would suck. Being in control of whether you are held up or not is wonderful. You are in control and the decision to succeed is yours. It means you can go forward and "do". So, go do. :)
 

JCornelius

Banned
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
437
Reaction score
74
When it's stuff that doesn't affect the plot I mark it down for later and move on. Then, when it's time for the first attempt to edit the draft--this is also the time to insert the correct sleeves and the horse-power of the engine.
 

chompers

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
2,506
Reaction score
384
It depends on what the problem is. If it's a small detail, I make a note in brackets, then I move on. I write out of order anyways, so it's no biggie for me. If it's a major issue, like motivation or plot problem, I go work on another story, all while trying to figure out the problem whenever I have a chance (usually when I'm in bed). Then when it's worked out, I return to it.
 

Harlequin

Eat books, not brains!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,584
Reaction score
1,412
Location
The land from whence the shadows fall
Website
www.sunyidean.com
I agree with others. Wanting to get it right firstcansave time later on. And being an obsessive perfectionist can go in your favour. If I am spinning in circles and going elsewhere, I ask other people or trad a book. I also can't move on until something is solved - and that's fine. The trick is to ehplore solutions which help your solve that probtem sooner.get a critique partner I reckon. Or a writing partner.
 

Morri

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
20
You know, I'm not sure why it's never occurred to me to just rank the issues I've come across. I spend as much time fixing plot things as I do with details that wouldn't affect it as much. I should probably start distinguishing between the things that demand immediate attention and what I can let slide to catch later.

Harlequin, I have been thinking about getting a writing partner. Writing is such a solitary thing (for me, at least) and getting feedback really helped me get motivated again and helped fix some issues I was having. I may post in the beta thread to see if I can find someone at a similar point with their own novel.

Thanks for your input, everyone! It's great to see what works for you.
 

Phantasmagoria

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
161
Reaction score
33
Location
Cape Cod MA, USA
This is such a hard thing to get past, but for me, it was worth working on getting past it. I used to obsess over every line as I went along, thinking I could produce a first draft of higher quality and save myself pain later--but there are several problems with that approach, compounded by the fact that I'm a pants-er, which necessitates revisions based on plot and characterization alone (as these things develop over time). I think if you're trying to be a writer and editor at the same time, it's really hard to actually produce. At least for me, separating out my critical editor self from my creative self helped up my speed and improved my craft tremendously.

I agree with much of what Ambrosia said about major vs minor things-- I used to be caught up in the minor stuff, finding the perfect word to describe x thing and getting the flow of the sentences just the way I wanted them before moving on, but like... why do that when I might have to cut the chapter entirely, during later revisions?? I was wasting more time than I was saving.

I'll tell ya, being a perfectionist pants-er is a nightmare, and since the pants-ing wasn't going to be the element that gets cut out of my creative process, the perfectionism on the first pass through just had to go...
 

Morri

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
20
I write fantasy. I'll definitely check those out!
 

buz

edits all posts at least four times
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
5,147
Reaction score
2,040
So. I'm a natural-born worrier. I worry, then I over-analyze why I'm worrying and all that there is to worry about. I've just had an unpleasant revelation where I realized my worry shows itself in my writing habits. I get stuck on the smallest, and sometimes stupidest things. It holds me up and I have to spend days or weeks working this one thing out before I feel like I can move on. It can be a plot thing, it can be a characterization thing, it can even be a "I don't know how to describe this guy's clothes so I need to do tons of research on 18th century men's wear' thing.

Do you eventually finish the thing?

As long as you finish the thing, it's fine. :)

What do you guys do when you find yourself stuck on something? Do you skip it and keep moving? Does it depend on what stage you are in your writing? I'm working on a first draft (my first first draft) and I know getting it all written is very important, but wouldn't it save me more frustration when editing if I fix this stuff now? I've never finished a project this long so I have no idea.

Oof I dunno. Most of the stuff I get stuck on is pretty major stuff, like plot or character, and often I have to go back and rewrite large portions of book because I get to someplace horribly stuck and realize I've done it all wrong. If I could do the realizing beforehand it would be fantastic; I've just never managed it. My brain never seems to stretch far enough to do it.

If it's a small detail I might just make a note and keep going, but that doesn't mean it's a thing you should do; I just lose momentum so fast when I have it I feel like I need to pound out the hard bits first. That might be totally wrong, cos yeah, then I have to go edit it all and research that stupid thing I needed to research in the first place...I can't say it's A Good Thing to Do or a Bad Thing to Do. It's just a thing I do, because all I'm doing is flailing through it.

What you need to do is whatever makes you get the thing done. There's no right or wrong way to do this in general; what prevents you from doing the writing is something that won't work for you; what gets it finished is something that will. :)
 

Morri

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
20
Do you eventually finish the thing?

As long as you finish the thing, it's fine. :)

I do finish the things, but I wish I could just finish the entire thing. That would be great.

Oof I dunno. Most of the stuff I get stuck on is pretty major stuff, like plot or character, and often I have to go back and rewrite large portions of book because I get to someplace horribly stuck and realize I've done it all wrong. If I could do the realizing beforehand it would be fantastic; I've just never managed it. My brain never seems to stretch far enough to do it.

If it's a small detail I might just make a note and keep going, but that doesn't mean it's a thing you should do; I just lose momentum so fast when I have it I feel like I need to pound out the hard bits first. That might be totally wrong, cos yeah, then I have to go edit it all and research that stupid thing I needed to research in the first place...I can't say it's A Good Thing to Do or a Bad Thing to Do. It's just a thing I do, because all I'm doing is flailing through it.

What you need to do is whatever makes you get the thing done. There's no right or wrong way to do this in general; what prevents you from doing the writing is something that won't work for you; what gets it finished is something that will. :)

I think part of the problem is since I haven't finished a novel before, I don't know what my process is. So I guess I'll join you in flailing around until something sticks. Or maybe my process is flailing around. Who knows.
 

buz

edits all posts at least four times
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
5,147
Reaction score
2,040
I think part of the problem is since I haven't finished a novel before, I don't know what my process is. So I guess I'll join you in flailing around until something sticks. Or maybe my process is flailing around. Who knows.

I've mostly given up on finding a way other than flailing...though I fantasize about it sometimes...

It doesn't feel very good and it's not the most efficient, but I know if I flail forward it will eventually get done.

Whether it's a worthwhile sort of done that produces a salable manuscript remains to be seen, so, er, take all this with salt. :p
 

Comanche

Huh??
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
68
Reaction score
8
Location
Deep South Texas
You mean I'm not supposed to write a chapter, then edit it, write #2, then get pulled back to #1 before editing #2, and writing #17 while still messing around with #1?

I thought that was the norm!

But, in my case, it's not so much being a perfectionist as it is a way for me to keep the story consistent. Most likely, with experience writing something more than newspaper stories and blog posts, I'll write an entire book before I edit.
 
Last edited:

JCornelius

Banned
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
437
Reaction score
74
/.../

I'll tell ya, being a perfectionist pants-er is a nightmare, and since the pants-ing wasn't going to be the element that gets cut out of my creative process, the perfectionism on the first pass through just had to go...
Dean Koontz has been a perfectionist pantser starting with Strangers (1986) and up to this day.

/.../
I think part of the problem is since I haven't finished a novel before, I don't know what my process is. So I guess I'll join you in flailing around until something sticks. Or maybe my process is flailing around. Who knows.

Franzen's method is flailing around. He starts from scratch with every next novel and invents the approach for writing it tortuously in the very process of writing. Doesn't simply fall back on preexisting technique like most established writers. I suspect Thomas Harris of the same.

You mean I'm not supposed to write a chapter, then edit it, write #2, then get pulled back to #1 before editing #2, and writing #17 while still messing around with #1?

I thought that was the norm!

But, in my case, it's not so much being a perfectionist as it is a way for me to keep the story consistent. Most likely, with experience writing something more than newspaper stories and blog posts, I'll write an entire book before I edit.

I personally go through a number of stages: outlining, sketching, fleshing out, editing, proofreading--and I jump all over the place once the outline is ready. You have a moment when the book is 100% outlined, of which 95% is sketched (a chapter or scene represented by a paragraph), of which 40% are fleshed out, of which 10% are edited.

So depending on the needs of the book and my needs I'd either be proof-reading chapter 5, or editing chapter 17, or fleshing out chapter 22, and so on.
 
Last edited:

Markiemoo

Not Throwing Away My Shot
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 19, 2017
Messages
55
Reaction score
2
Location
Small town Ohio
I am a classic overthinker. It affects my writing. I fret over details and wonder if I shouldn't have used a different word or phrasing. I overthink just about every aspect of my life. I am trying to break that, and am doung better. But I catch myself over-analyzing everything
 

Phantasmagoria

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
161
Reaction score
33
Location
Cape Cod MA, USA
Dean Koontz has been a perfectionist pantser starting with Strangers (1986) and up to this day.

I haven't read Koontz in a long time, but I did used to enjoy him. Good for him for being able to embody both perfectionist and pantser at once! I couldn't do it long-term without giving myself an ulcer, haha. So much harder to murder your darlings when they're all bright and shiny and presentable...
 

JCornelius

Banned
Joined
Nov 17, 2014
Messages
437
Reaction score
74
I haven't read Koontz in a long time, but I did used to enjoy him.
Starting with the early 1990's his books become choked with reactionary old fart rants about society going to the dogs because of all that permissiveness, and you call that music? and damn kids get off my lawn, but I've learned to recognize this as his right, just as it is my right to rant about stuff I want to rant about.

Good for him for being able to embody both perfectionist and pantser at once! I couldn't do it long-term without giving myself an ulcer, haha. So much harder to murder your darlings when they're all bright and shiny and presentable...

He murders no darlings whatsoever starting with Strangers. He pours out what he wants to, then instead of axing it, he whips it into shape until it works, not least of all by being a master of chapter structure--he can insert all the ramblings and all the scenic poetics he wants to into the structural scaffolding--and still make the reader keep turning the page to find out "what's next". It's like taking James Patterson's page-turning structural skeleton, and filling up the spaces between the action beats with anything you want to as an author, but still retain the thriller dynamic flow.

Consider this opening of By the Light of the Moon where he writes basically anything he wants to after his hook, but manages to make it all double as atmosphere setting and early glimpses of character:

[1
Shortly before being knocked unconscious and bound to a chair, before being injected with an unknown substance against his will, and before discovering that the world was deeply mysterious in ways he'd never before imagined, Dylan O'Conner left his motel room and walked across the highway to a brightly lighted fast-food franchise to buy cheeseburgers, French fries, pocket pies with apple filling, and a vanilla milkshake.

The expired day lay buried in the earth, in the asphalt. Unseen but felt, its ghost haunted the Arizona night: a hot spirit rising lazily from every inch of ground that Dylan crossed.

Here at the end of town that served travelers from the nearby interstate, formidable batteries of colorful electric signs warred for customers. In spite of this bright battle, however, an impressive sea of stars gleamed from horizon to horizon, for the air was clear and dry. A westbound moon, as round as a ship's wheel, plied the starry ocean.
The vastness above appeared clean and full of promise, but the world at ground level looked dusty, weary. Rather than being combed by a single wind, the night was plaited with many breezes, each with an individual quality of whispery speech and a unique scent. Redolent of desert grit, of cactus pollen, of diesel fumes, of hot blacktop, the air curdled as Dylan drew near to the restaurant, thickened with the aroma of long-used deep-fryer oil, with hamburger grease smoking on a griddle, with fried-onion vapors nearly as thick as blackdamp.

If he hadn't been in a town unfamiliar to him, if he hadn't been tired after a day on the road, and if his younger brother, Shepherd, hadn't been in a puzzling mood, Dylan would have sought a restaurant with healthier fare. Shep wasn't currently able to cope in public, however, and when in this condition, he refused to eat anything but comfort food with a high fat content.

The restaurant was brighter inside than out. Most surfaces were white, and in spite of the well-greased air, the establishment looked antiseptic.

Contemporary culture fit Dylan O'Conner only about as well as a three-fingered glove, and here was one more place where the tailoring pinched: He believed that a burger joint ought to look like a joint, not like a surgery, not like a nursery with pictures of clowns and funny animals on the walls, not like a bamboo pavilion on a tropical island, not like a glossy plastic replica of a 1950s diner that never actually existed. If you were going to eat charred cow smothered in cheese, with a side order of potato strips made as crisp as ancient papyrus by immersion in boiling oil, and if you were going to wash it all down with either satisfying quantities of icy beer or a milkshake containing the caloric equivalent of an entire roasted pig, then this fabulous consumption ought to occur in an ambience that virtually screamed guilty pleasure, if not sin. The lighting should be low and warm. Surfaces should be dark – preferably old mahogany, tarnished brass, wine-colored upholstery. Music should be provided to soothe the carnivore: not the music that made your gorge rise in an elevator because it was played by musicians steeped in Prozac, but tunes that were as sensuous as the food – perhaps early rock and roll or big-band swing, or good country music about temptation and remorse and beloved dogs.]


Also, chapter 7 of Dark Rivers of the Heart is a masterclass in how to maintain an undercurrent of dynamism in an otherwise boring conversation scene, through the use of parallel micro-subplots.
 
Last edited:

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Messages
1,942
Reaction score
1,078
Location
in my own little world
I use the comments feature in Word a LOT. If it's some sort of description, or something I just can't seem to describe right at the moment, I'll create a comment and go back to it later. I have lots of comments like "EXPAND FIGHT SCENE" and "What are those pants called?" Don't let minute details keep you from finishing.

If it's a plot issue, I'll try to resolve it immediately so I don't write myself into a black hole. For those, I usually take a break and go for a walk so I can let the issue marinate in brain juice for a bit.
 

Morri

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
252
Reaction score
20
Dean Koontz has been a perfectionist pantser starting with Strangers (1986) and up to this day.



Franzen's method is flailing around. He starts from scratch with every next novel and invents the approach for writing it tortuously in the very process of writing. Doesn't simply fall back on preexisting technique like most established writers. I suspect Thomas Harris of the same.

I read the Koontz book about the road trip and enjoyed it, though it's not what I'm usually into. It's interesting to know he's a pantser.

And I don't think I like flailing, so I'll leave all that to Franzen. :)


I use the comments feature in Word a LOT. If it's some sort of description, or something I just can't seem to describe right at the moment, I'll create a comment and go back to it later. I have lots of comments like "EXPAND FIGHT SCENE" and "What are those pants called?" Don't let minute details keep you from finishing.

If it's a plot issue, I'll try to resolve it immediately so I don't write myself into a black hole. For those, I usually take a break and go for a walk so I can let the issue marinate in brain juice for a bit.

I write in Pages now that I have a mac, and it has a comments feature as well. It's very convenient and I do use it, mainly to flag down very small details I have questions about. To me, expanding a scene would be right up there with plot issues because anything plot or character-related could pop up within that scene, and it could affect what comes next.
 

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 30, 2006
Messages
20,760
Reaction score
2,707
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
Website
www.gallagherwitt.com
It depends on what the problem is. If it's a small detail, I make a note in brackets, then I move on. I write out of order anyways, so it's no biggie for me. If it's a major issue, like motivation or plot problem, I go work on another story, all while trying to figure out the problem whenever I have a chance (usually when I'm in bed). Then when it's worked out, I return to it.

Me too...brackets, writing out of sequence, etc. No point in breaking momentum to look up something relatively minor. Or maybe there's a restaurant, for example, and I haven't picked a name for it yet. If the scene is clipping along nicely and I just can't think of a name for the restaurant, I call it [restaurant] and move on until later. I swear by that method.
 

AnthonyDavid11

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 29, 2015
Messages
51
Reaction score
2
I don't do that differently from what you do, but I've learned to simplify it. There's no reason to take ten years to solve the problem and the solution is often more simple than I guessed. However, it is a problem for a reason and should be dealt with. Your instincts are kicking in and shouldn't be denied. All depends on what the problem is specifically.
 

WriteMinded

Derailed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
6,216
Reaction score
785
Location
Paradise Lost
I do finish the things, but I wish I could just finish the entire thing. That would be great.



I think part of the problem is since I haven't finished a novel before, I don't know what my process is. So I guess I'll join you in flailing around until something sticks. Or maybe my process is flailing around. Who knows.
The part where you say you haven't finished a novel before caught my eye.

If this is your first book, you are still finding your process. My first book, the first one I finished that is, took maybe 3 years to get through the first draft. I researched as I wrote, and I put some things off until later, and I fumed, and I fumbled. I did more research as I went through the first edit and the second. The good news is, it took less than a year to get to the end of the first draft of the second book. That's because I had developed my process while I was writing the first one.

As I go, I make notes. Some are inserted in the MS, most go into an information manager. By the time I finish the last sentence of the book, I've got a map that shows me where I need to go, what I need to fix. That's what works for me. You are finding what works for you. Be patient with yourself.