Info dumps at the beginning of urban fantasy novels

HPhatecraft · Apr 15, 2017

I've recently started writing and reading more urban fantasy. Something I've noticed is what many books and people say not to do: infodump in the beginning.

For example, I read "City of Light" by Keri Arthur, which was a very well written book. Don't get me wrong: I'm not knocking this author's abilities or the novel itself. I'm just wondering why it was okay for a long infodump to be there on the second page of the first chapter. The chapter picked up afterwards and more than makes up for it, but it really had a lot of exposition explaining a bunch in the opening.

And that's just one example I've seen of this.

Are infodumps acceptable in urban fantasy, or am I just missing something? I personally prefer to go with the "move the story a long and drop two to three sentence explanations as things come up" route, the way Jim Butcher does it in "The Dresden Files." I would rather read and write a quick explanation than stop a story to explain a lot all at once.

jjdebenedictis · Apr 15, 2017

Everything is allowed as long as the reader doesn't get bored.

And it's really, really easy to bore a reader with an info-dump, so starting with one is ill-advised, regardless of the genre. If the author pulled it off though, then all is forgiven.

I have tossed aside urban fantasy books that did this, and I can't remember many that do, so no, I don't think it's "acceptable". For whatever reason, the agents/editors who took on that book decided it worked.

(And all that said, there was this one urban fantasy, written in first person, where the protagonist took four pages to roll across the floor in the middle of a gunfight because she was mentally blathering at the reader about her work, her wardrobe, and her hot boss... I don't know what she did next, because that was as much patience as I had for an infodump masquerading as "voice".

)

MaeZe · Apr 15, 2017

I read lots of YA fantasy and sci fi. I haven't noticed any preponderance of info-dump beginnings. In fact, I can't recall a single one.

Though I did try to read Neal Stephenson, Anathem because he's a recommended author and I couldn't get past the prologue explaining the terminology. One day I'll try another of his books.

jjdebenedictis · Apr 15, 2017

MaeZe said:
Though I did try to read Neal Stephenson, Anathem because he's a recommended author and I couldn't get past the prologue explaining the terminology. One day I'll try another of his books.

Try Snow Crash, his first (I think?) novel. It gives you an idea of what he's good at without lapsing into too much of the esoteric geekery he got into later. (Warning: The book does contain some icky sexual stuff with a sixteen-year-old.)

Southpaw · Apr 16, 2017

I read a lot of UF and I haven't seen much infodump early on. I think that's a rarity. You may just have been lucky enough to pick up the "right" books.

In Keri Arthur's case, she'd written several books before that one came out, so she had a track record, which gives her more leeway with publishers/readers/etc.

JulianneQJohnson · Apr 16, 2017

I dislike info dump. If you see a popular book with infodump, it's because they got away with it, not because it's a good idea.

S. Eli · Apr 16, 2017

Actually I kind of think I know what you mean. You explained it better than I can, the best way I can say it is that Urban Fantasy has always, to me, been a little more organized, I guess? Like, I'd say when Urban Fantasy gets into its world building the descriptions are more in the vein of sci-fi than traditional fantasy. I don't think I'm making any sense, but I think we're agreeing here, OP

blacbird · Apr 16, 2017

JulianneQJohnson said:
I dislike info dump. If you see a popular book with infodump, it's because they got away with it, not because it's a good idea.

Echo this. For me, as a reader, blatant info-dumps come across as a violation of narrative technique, of point-of-view in particular. They are always an intrusion on the flow of story, and there are plenty of alternatives I can read instead of putting up with info-dumpage.

caw

HPhatecraft · Apr 16, 2017

S. Eli said:
Actually I kind of think I know what you mean. You explained it better than I can, the best way I can say it is that Urban Fantasy has always, to me, been a little more organized, I guess? Like, I'd say when Urban Fantasy gets into its world building the descriptions are more in the vein of sci-fi than traditional fantasy. I don't think I'm making any sense, but I think we're agreeing here, OP

I think they both do a good job, but with traditional fantasy it's more "immersion", where the character is just in the world and the author slowly shows how the world works, vs Urban fantasy where the POV is often first person and the narrator just kind of explains as things happen.

Jim Butcher does that...but it can be a little annoying after awhile. I mean, in every Dresden File book he explains how he looks into someone's soul. When you've read all the previous books you often want to just skip over the explaining what was learned in the first.

Sheryl Nantus · Apr 16, 2017

HPhatecraft said:
Jim Butcher does that...but it can be a little annoying after awhile. I mean, in every Dresden File book he explains how he looks into someone's soul. When you've read all the previous books you often want to just skip over the explaining what was learned in the first.

Except you have to remember that every book, even those in a series, is someone's FIRST book. You may cut the explanation down but you have to mention it - otherwise the new reader will be confused and walk away. You don't have to do a word-for-word repetition of what's been said before but you do have to cover it.

MaeZe · Apr 16, 2017

HPhatecraft said:
... vs Urban fantasy where the POV is often first person and the narrator just kind of explains as things happen.

Jim Butcher does that...but it can be a little annoying after awhile. I mean, in every Dresden File book he explains how he looks into someone's soul. When you've read all the previous books you often want to just skip over the explaining what was learned in the first.

Never read Butcher but from the looks of his book list, it's all pretty similar. Either you like that author (apparently he has quite the following) or you don't. I don't think I'd judge urban fantasy based on one author. Not saying you haven't read more, but I'm just not seeing what you are describing in the books I've read.

Roxxsmom · Apr 16, 2017

Sheryl Nantus said:
Except you have to remember that every book, even those in a series, is someone's FIRST book.

Do people actually start reading series in the middle? When I'm poring through prospective novels in a bookstore or something, and I pick one up that looks interesting and turns out to be the most recent installment of a long-running series, I put it down and look for the first one (going by publication date and the list of titles in the series that are usually given inside the book, though some publishers seem to want to keep readers guessing). I can't stand starting stories in the middle, even if earlier stuff is summarized. If the start of the series isn't there, and I think I really want to read it, I'll go online to order the book.

This is one reason I go to brick and mortar bookstores less and less. They don't tend to carry entire series anymore, but only the most recent releases by a given author (and they don't tend to carry books by authors I haven't already heard of either--whcih kills the whole going to the bookstore to visually browse thing).

Sorry for the derail. I don't tend to like info dumps either. Short expository lumps are okay if they're interestingly written and aren't stopping the forward momentum of the story. If there's a pause in the action where it makes sense for the character to be reflecting on something, or for an external narrator to be explaining something, then they work.

But not pages of exposition at the beginning, and most definitely not the protagonist thinking about her cute boss when she's rolling across the floor in the middle of a gun fight >.<

I've run into plenty of debut novels, including ones written fairly recently, that break "rules," though. Sometimes they do it in a way that works for me, and sometimes they don't. I think those of us who also write might represent a rare subset of readers who are more sensitive (or sensitized) to these things.

EMaree · Apr 16, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Do people actually start reading series in the middle?

Oh yeah, it's super common. Lots of people just think a book sounds cool and want to give it a go! I hate reading out-of-order now, but as a kid I did it out of sheer necessity. The local bookstores didn't tend to have books in full series order, so I'd pick up whatever sounded good and read from there.

Prisoner of Azkaban will always be my favourite Harry Potter book because it was my first.

It had just been released, and it was the only one on supermarket bookshelves.

dickson · Apr 16, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Do people actually start reading series in the middle? When I'm poring through prospective novels in a bookstore or something, and I pick one up that looks interesting and turns out to be the most recent installment of a long-running series, I put it down and look for the first one (going by publication date and the list of titles in the series that are usually given inside the book, though some publishers seem to want to keep readers guessing). I can't stand starting stories in the middle, even if earlier stuff is summarized. If the start of the series isn't there, and I think I really want to read it, I'll go online to order the book.

This is one reason I go to brick and mortar bookstores less and less. They don't tend to carry entire series anymore, but only the most recent releases by a given author (and they don't tend to carry books by authors I haven't already heard of either--whcih kills the whole going to the bookstore to visually browse thing).

Sorry for the derail. I don't tend to like info dumps either. Short expository lumps are okay if they're interestingly written and aren't stopping the forward momentum of the story. If there's a pause in the action where it makes sense for the character to be reflecting on something, or for an external narrator to be explaining something, then they work.

But not pages of exposition at the beginning, and most definitely not the protagonist thinking about her cute boss when she's rolling across the floor in the middle of a gun fight >.<

I've run into plenty of debut novels, including ones written fairly recently, that break "rules," though. Sometimes they do it in a way that works for me, and sometimes they don't. I think those of us who also write might represent a rare subset of readers who are more sensitive (or sensitized) to these things.

I've done it-but never intentionally. I was given one of the Aubrey-Maturin novels by Patrick O'Brien for Christmas. It was something like #12 in a series that went into the 20's. Needless to say I ended up reading them all and am very glad I did.

dickson · Apr 16, 2017

Southpaw said:
I read a lot of UF and I haven't seen much infodump early on. I think that's a rarity. You may just have been lucky enough to pick up the "right" books.

In Keri Arthur's case, she'd written several books before that one came out, so she had a track record, which gives her more leeway with publishers/readers/etc.

Track record counts for a lot. If you are established, or if you have enough of a track record that your agent/publisher trusts you, you can break all the rules and live to tell the tale. A personal favorite example, although not UF and not exactly an opening info dump, is Underworld by Don DeLillo. It has a long prologue, easily a couple of chapters worth, that does nothing to advance the plot-but does introduce a MacGuffin that helps tie the entire novel together. The MacGuffin is a baseball knocked into the bleachers in a (historical) 1951 game, and DeLillo uses it to sew together an account of (among many other aspects of mid-twentieth century America) the nuclear weapons industry during and after the Cold War.

An info dump may not get you out of Exposition Park (apologies to Firesign Theater) but if you do it skillfully enough, the reader will be happy to follow along. It may, however, raise the bar with some agents.

jjdebenedictis · Apr 16, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Do people actually start reading series in the middle?

By the numbers, they must, because series writers know that when their latest book comes out, all the previous books get a sales bump. At least some of those sales must be due to people grabbing the latest one and liking it enough to go back and start the series from the beginning.

zanzjan · Apr 16, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
Do people actually start reading series in the middle?

I have, but usually for one of two reasons:
1. the book doesn't make clear it's part of a series, or not the first (this irks the hell out of me.)
2. I'm reading the book because it got nominated for the Hugos, and I try to read all the nominees, but I very rarely have time to go read all the books leading up to a particular one. And in that case, I'm reading more critically than just reading for fun, so it better make sense.

But that said: I haven't noticed any particular tendency towards early infodumps in urban fantasy, but I read a lot more SF and UF than I read secondary world fantasy, and I think a couple of you might be on to something there. With 2WF, there's an immediate reader presumption that everything is potentially different and will unfold as they read, but with UF and with SF, it's more a mapping of unknown/speculative stuff onto the known/familiar, and if you leave at least hinting at the nature of differences too late, you run the risk of speculative elements feeling more like the author cheating to connect their plot dots.

Regardless, info should be imparted seemlessly rather than as a big hard to digest lump, especially in the beginning, and I would blame poor handling of that on individual works long before I started to think it was symptomatic of a genre. But someone who reads a lot of 2WF might be more likely to notice what amounts to subtle worldbuilding differences? I don't really know. Interesting to think about.

Laer Carroll · Apr 19, 2017

Seems to me I recall someone saying in another thread that if it's boring it's an info dump, otherwise it's not.

Some genres or subgenres are more tolerant of big chunks of exposition. Police procedurals, military fiction, hard sci-fi, and a few others. But even in them it's awfully rare for it to begin a book.

Where I've seen info "chunks" (not dumps!) successfully begin a book is when it's short, usually not more than a short paragraph or three.

I do remember a beginning big chunk which worked. It was part of a dialogue, at the beginning of a spy novel by a popular writer. "You've gotta remember that the Soviets have three intel organizations: the SVR, GRU, and MVD. The one you have to watch out for on this mission is ...."

My guess is that this worked for several reasons. Dialogue is action, even if it's mostly monologue. More importantly, the info was directly relevant to the story. And most especially so because it related to the survival of the main character, an ad hoc spy who had no training yet and desperately needed the info. It also worked I think because there was no attribution. The effect was of two anonymous characters in shadows, emblematic of the entire book.

So, not boring (at least to me) and so a chunk not a dump!

dickson · Apr 21, 2017

Laer Carroll said:
"You've gotta remember that the Soviets have three intel organizations: the SVR, GRU, and MVD.

I think the author got a little confused about Soviet, later Russian, intelligence order-of-battle: During the Cold War there were KGB and GRU; the "militia" MVD was not so much an intel organization as a police force, although at various times prior to 1946 it had a secret police component. After the fall of the Soviet Union KGB split into SVR and FSB, while GRU remained largely unchanged. MVD was reorganized, but continues to be primarily devoted to policing. The organizational history of Soviet and Russian intelligence services after 1917 is quite complicated. Robert Service published a book devoted almost entirely to the period of the blood purges in the late 1930's. It is educational reading in a grim way.

I hope the protagonist of that novel survived the advice he or she got at the beginning, if it was as inaccurate as the sample quoted. Of course, none of that matters if the author managed to spin a good yarn.

Info dumps at the beginning of urban fantasy novels

HPhatecraft

jjdebenedictis

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MaeZe

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Southpaw

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JulianneQJohnson

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S. Eli

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blacbird

HPhatecraft

Sheryl Nantus

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MaeZe

Roxxsmom

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EMaree

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dickson

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jjdebenedictis

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zanzjan

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Laer Carroll

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dickson

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