2017 Hugo Awards

megan_d said:

...the goodreads choice awards are nothing more than a popularity contest.

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You thought it was something else?!!! So are the Hugos. So what? And they never had a lot of prestige, even in the SF/F community, at least among those fans who know it well. It's just a small bunch of happy older people getting together to share a beloved art field. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Trying to promote it and its "best" awards to some pretentious Great Event is silly.

Speaking of the age of the WorldCon participants, we are older because (among other reasons) older people tend to have more money and time to travel somewhere for a long weekend of fun. From my experience, regional cons tend to have more locals and more younger people. LosCon, which I attend most years here in in L. A., sees a substantial group of younger people, including some teens.

Laer Carroll said:

You thought it was something else?!!! So are the Hugos. So what? And they never had a lot of prestige, even in the SF/F community, at least among those fans who know it well. It's just a small bunch of happy older people getting together to share a beloved art field. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Trying to promote it and its "best" awards to some pretentious Great Event is silly.

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TBF, the reason the Hugos have a good reputation is that they've given the award to some works that have shown staying power over many decades (although they've certainly awarded some clunkers, too, but still). And it's a very, very nice bit of free advertising for the nominees, which I suspect is at least partially the motivation for the persistent vandalism.

@ULTRAGOTHA--thanks for bringing me up to speed!

zanzjan said:

DongerNeedFood, this feels intentionally trollish.



Doubling down on the ageist BS here is not impressing me. You've been to exactly one Worldcon and you know exactly who attends and votes in the Hugos every year? While it's an expensive enough event that there is definitely an advantage for people with money, which in turn tends to disadvantage the very young unless they've got fannish older relatives, many of us are younger than baby boomers, some very much so. And since Worldcons are each run by a different group, some with wildly different attitudes about costuming/anime and other events, the demographics of each Worldcon varies significantly. No, Worldcon doesn't represent fandom as a while; it represents fandom that cares about Worldcon. Likewise the Hugos.

You want to make a plug for the value of the Goodreads awards, that's awesome, please do so. But you don't have to crap in someone else's yard to do so.

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I was not intending to troll. I've just become too cynical or frustrated with the Hugos, and I was venting.

DongerNeedFood said:

I was not intending to troll. I've just become too cynical or frustrated with the Hugos, and I was venting.

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Maybe you're too sensitive. Cons and their awards are just supposed to be fun. To expect them to be more sets us up to be disappointed.

About the Hugos. I'm always happy to see my favorite authors get a nomination. Lois McMaster Bujold got two this year, for instance, and I was delighted that Hidden Figures and Stranger Things and The Geek Feminist Revolution (which I bought) also were nominated.

But I sample novel noms every year by reading the Amazon samples or checking the books out of the library. The past several years each left me cold. I'm not about to join the Sad Puppies, but I can at least a bit sympathize with them. The main difference is that I don't want to dictate what others vote for or don't, or read or don't. Or ascribe some sinister liberal conspiracy to the choices of Hugo members.

Laer Carroll said:

About the Hugos. I'm always happy to see my favorite authors get a nomination. Lois McMaster Bujold got two this year, for instance, and I was delighted that Hidden Figures and Stranger Things and The Geek Feminist Revolution (which I bought) also were nominated.

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Hidden Figures is great, and I know it technically qualifies for Dramatic Long Form, but I think that's a loose definition of SF/Fantasy. A great movie, and as long as Ghostbusters doesn't win I won't complain. Pretty surprised WestWorld didn't get nominated. I'm going to guess that Arrival wins, but Stranger Things would be my pick

Laer Carroll said:

But I sample novel noms every year by reading the Amazon samples or checking the books out of the library. The past several years each left me cold. I'm not about to join the Sad Puppies, but I can at least a bit sympathize with them. The main difference is that I don't want to dictate what others vote for or don't, or read or don't. Or ascribe some sinister liberal conspiracy to the choices of Hugo members.

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I didn't like the idea of voting slates, but I definitely understood the Sad Puppies' point of view. There has been a heavy slant toward social message books recently. One of this year's Best Novel nominees is a sequel to the only book I couldn't finish last year. It was extremely heavy handed with it's social message, and had no plot, so I won't be reading the sequel.

amergina said:

Good SF/F has always had a social message. It's a subversive genre.

I suspect the issue is that the social message in some modern SF/F books does not jive with some people's own social leanings and that makes them uncomfortable.

It's not a bug of SF/F... it's a feature.

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And the argument isn't a new one, apparently.

It's a microcosm of larger Western culture, really.

amergina said:

Good SF/F has always had a social message. It's a subversive genre.

I suspect the issue is that the social message in some modern SF/F books does not jive with some people's own social leanings and that makes them uncomfortable.

It's not a bug of SF/F... it's a feature.

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+1. Think of just about any big SFF name from the past, and the social messages in their work are obvious. It's not that social messaging in SFF has changed, it's that our society has, and therefore the social message has evolved.

JJ Litke said:

+1. Think of just about any big SFF name from the past, and the social messages in their work are obvious. It's not that social messaging in SFF has changed, it's that our society has, and therefore the social message has evolved.

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I'll admit I've often been puzzled by the assertion that SFF has been too message heavy in recent years. Heinlein, who is often held up as an example of "good old fashioned" SF, definitely had political leanings that made their way into his work. I agree that people tend to see messages or agendas as intrusive when they are contrary to their own world views or norms and to take them as a given when they don't. We also all have an upper limit for what is often termed heavy handedness, but that also can be in the eye of the beholder. I haven't liked everything that's won over the years, or even in recent years, but I know my taste isn't going to be shared by all, or even most, fans.

As for progressive SF with messages that are on the liberal end of the spectrum? Those aren't new either. There was plenty of feminist and environmentalist-themed SF winning Hugo awards back in the 70s, and even before.

Roxxsmom said:

I'll admit I've often been puzzled by the assertion that SFF has been too message heavy in recent years.

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All writing is political, because all politics are personal. I don't think it's possible to create a different world without your beliefs about the current one bleeding through, whether you intend it or not.

lizmonster said:

All writing is political, because all politics are personal. I don't think it's possible to create a different world without your beliefs about the current one bleeding through, whether you intend it or not.

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I completely agree, and I don't think I'd even want to, though I do want to be as conscious as possible of my own assumptions and biases and to ask myself whether they get in the way of the story I want to tell or not. However, I've encountered a number of people who disagree and insist that politics have no place in speculative fiction and it should just be 100% escapist fun. When I point out political biases in their own work, or in the work of their own favorite authors, they say that's not what they mean by political.

amergina said:

Good SF/F has always had a social message. It's a subversive genre.

I suspect the issue is that the social message in some modern SF/F books does not jive with some people's own social leanings and that makes them uncomfortable.

It's not a bug of SF/F... it's a feature.

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No doubt some people are bothered by social messages that contradict their beliefs.

For me it's not the message, it's the execution. Sometimes the message overshadows the story. Often times there is no story, just a message put into a SF/Fantasy setting. A great writer can blend a message into a story seamlessly.

Yes, it's fucking political
Everything's political -- Skunk Anansie

Everything we write is informed by our own biases and beliefs about the world. Of course that will stand out to readers who don't share them. We might not notice our politics if we read only like-minded authors, but that doesn't mean the politics isn't there. You probably don't notice your own accent when you're amongst people who sound the same as you, but that doesn't mean you don't have one.

DongerNeedFood said:

No doubt some people are bothered by social messages that contradict their beliefs.

For me it's not the message, it's the execution. Sometimes the message overshadows the story. Often times there is no story, just a message put into a SF/Fantasy setting. A great writer can blend a message into a story seamlessly.

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Could you give an example of one where the political message is blended seamlessly and one where the message overshadows the story?

DongerNeedFood said:

No doubt some people are bothered by social messages that contradict their beliefs.

For me it's not the message, it's the execution. Sometimes the message overshadows the story. Often times there is no story, just a message put into a SF/Fantasy setting. A great writer can blend a message into a story seamlessly.

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Whether the message overwhelms the story varies depending on the reader's biases, though. Forex, as a non-American I'm put off by the implicit messaging in a lot of Mil SF that the future is basically the American navy (and other American institutions) in space. Whereas an American reader might not even question why that should be so.

Helix said:

Could you give an example of one where the political message is blended seamlessly and one where the message overshadows the story?

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The Long Way To A Small Angry Planet by Becky Chambers. Really heavy handed social message. The book has no plot. Nothing happens. The characters are all over the top nice and friendly. They spend the whole time eating beetles and talking about how diverse and accepting they are of everything. The book was a lesson not a story.


Ready Player One by Ernest Cline. A fun story that sucked me in and kept me turning the pages, but it also had a message. The story dealt with issues like identity and culture in a digital world that lead to a disconnect from reality. The book also touches on climate change, and out of control corporatism.


These aren't necessarily the best examples of what I'm talking about, but they are the first ones that come to mind.

Roxxsmom said:

I agree that people tend to see messages or agendas as intrusive when they are contrary to their own world views or norms and to take them as a given when they don't.

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Nailed it. Execution is blamed when the message isn't desirable. But the messages are always there.

Albedo said:

Whether the message overwhelms the story varies depending on the reader's biases, though. Forex, as a non-American I'm put off by the implicit messaging in a lot of Mil SF that the future is basically the American navy (and other American institutions) in space. Whereas an American reader might not even question why that should be so.

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I can understand that, and it's a product of author's writing what they know. It is refreshing to see the recent surge of Chinese SF books.

JJ Litke said:

Nailed it. Execution is blamed when the message isn't desirable. But the messages are always there.

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To be fair, I have run into some novels where I basically agreed with the message, but I still think it was handled in a fairly klunky or obtrusive way. It's definitely more noticeable when you don't agree, though, and I think it's human nature to hold authors whose world view conflicts with one's own to a higher standard overall.

DongerNeedFood said:

The Long Way To A Small Angry Planet by Becky Chambers. Really heavy handed social message. The book has no plot. Nothing happens. The characters are all over the top nice and friendly. They spend the whole time eating beetles and talking about how diverse and accepting they are of everything. The book was a lesson not a story.

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See what's interesting to me here is I didn't see it that way at all until I showed up at a book club and people were talking about it like that. For me it was like stepping into a warm blanket and I was just super interested in how everything worked in the world she'd created. It was literally the first book I'd read in one sitting in ages.

I think part of it has to do with it very much jiving with my social norms and beliefs. I also think I approached with an anthropological/curiosity mindset - I wasn't too fussed that not a terrible amount of stuff happened, although I will note that it still made me cry at the end of it when (spoiler) the AI died.

It's just interesting how different things work for different people.

ETA: when I get caught up in things (movies/books especially), I'll often need to read it a couple of times so I stop getting drawn into the story and can actually sit down and pick it apart. There's probably a bit of that going on here.

Roxxsmom said:

To be fair, I have run into some novels where I basically agreed with the message, but I still think it was handled in a fairly klunky or obtrusive way. It's definitely more noticeable when you don't agree, though, and I think it's human nature to hold authors whose world view conflicts with one's own to a higher standard overall.

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I've come across this too; I can't think of a personal example but I can think of some examples of a particular reviewer of Star Trek episodes, a guy who is fairly openly liberal, grumbling about the ham-handed eulogizing of likewise-minded writers in particular episodes. Othertimes the message might be one that's agreed on but the arguments and delivery were flawed.

In my current writing I've been digging a lot into themes that might be political because I'm dipping heavily history and the other social sciences for source material and a lot of the conflict is on an international (give or take size) level. But these things are the tableau for the character's personal struggles with themselves, with each other and with the wider conflict. I've been putting a lot of effort into trying to understand how my characters would realistically act and think in a complex manner; people rather than caricatures. Some of my protagonists may even think or do things I don't agree with. If I'm writing about something I think is wrong (at the moment I'm currently trying to tackle slavery) I want the reader to see that by seeing the effect of that wrong, not the characters just being a mouthpiece. I might subvert some social norms (i.e. gender) at times but I don't want to draw a big highlight to "look at this social norm I'm subverting!" if it doesn't serve the story.