When did we start using "of" over 've?

Albedo · Mar 23, 2017

Thecla said:
Around here, some people do say "would of". Quite clearly. Others, just as clearly, say "would have" (sometimes contracted to "would've"). The two forms don't sound much alike here.

I expect many of the people who say "would of" would write "would have" (or "would've"). Written and spoken English are often very different in the UK, especially once you move away from middle-class areas of south-east England.

Heh. I think written and spoken English bear only the most cursory resemblance at the best of times. (For example, spelling of 'of'.)

Thecla · Mar 23, 2017

Myrealana said:
Aluminium makes me grin every time I hear it.

Heh. 'Aluminum' sounds so odd (also, why not 'calcum', 'potassum'...?

)

Helix · Mar 23, 2017

BethS said:
Oh well. You should hear we Americans snicker at the Brit pronunciation of "pasta" and "taco."

Is there a single 'British' pronunciation? How do Italians and Mexicans pronounce those words?

Albedo · Mar 23, 2017

A relative pronounces 'taco' to rhyme with the first two syllables of 'make-over', which I don't think has ever been correct anywhere.

blacbird · Mar 23, 2017

I don't believe I've ever seen the "of" usage in a published book, EXCEPT in the context of regional slang or dialog. I know it happens in student papers, of course, but if you have an example of it in a published work, I'd like to see it quoted and documented.

caw

Once! · Mar 23, 2017

BethS said:
Oh well. You should hear we Americans snicker at the Brit pronunciation of "pasta" and "taco."

And there I was thinking that you liked our accent so much that you always get English actors to play the villain in Hollywood movies! Or the lead role in Star Trek NG and the Walking Dead.

Although I do have to apologise for Benedict Cumberbatch in Dr Strange ...

King Neptune · Mar 23, 2017

evilrooster said:
But having heard the British pronunciation of "solder"(the L is not silent), now I find it hard to revert to the American "sotter".

It is more like "sodder", but it may be a matter of how one hears it.

(Did you know that we have most of our information about how the ancient Romans pronounced Latin from poetry mocking people with speech impediments and foreign accents?)

I hadn't known that, and it leads me to wonder how they actually spoke. It probably sounded more like Italian earlier than I had thought.

Jason · Mar 23, 2017

Fair points to all on how it probably evolved - as a result of people who write they way they talk, because they do sound the same. Toward that end, it was probably not accurate for me to state that usage of these semantics is an indication of anything remotely resembling stupidity, laziness, lack of education or anything derogatory. The assessment that it likely is the result of not writing/reading very much I think is spot on.

To the other point that "if you get the meaning, then what's the harm?" - I do get the meaning, and you're right, no one was harmed per se.

BUT

The written word is different than the spoken word, and following the direction of writing like you talk is not good advice imho. If we do that, then the written word loses all structure and relevance.

I kud riet wike dis n git undurstud

I would respectfully submit that language is not meant to be written phonetically. If society moves in that direction as a whole, then writing as a craft will continue to lose appeal because no one will really see any need to learn any structure or parameters for communicating with these funny things we are calling letters and words, verbs, sentences, pronouns and such.

It's ironic I am saying this, because I've been told that my writing is much too formalized, and I need to loosen up my style when I write. I think mine comes from my age and education, but even then, if you ask me about verb tenses and throw some other grammar terms in there, I would currently be woefully unprepared to explain several of them.

For instance, if you ask me to explain the difference between the verb tenses of past, present, future, future imperfect, past subjunctive, and past perfect, I would likely fail. What's a participle? Is it dangling? Dunno - but maybe I used to and just plum forgot! LOL

All that and literally a cornucopia of other things can get very confusing. I am certainly not one to waggle my curmudgeonly finger at others for not knowing all that, because I sure as hell don't know many of these examples well enough to be the position of any kind of judgement. What's the old saying - judge not lest ye be judged? Yeah, that's my motto!

BUT, I learned about contractions in the 2nd or 3rd grade (I think), and my general hope/expectation is that a high school - well, maybe a college graduate...whichever, should have at least that level of understanding. Sadly though, many don't anymore. Can I change it? Nope, but I can grate my teeth or roll my eyes at it...and yes, I admit, occasionally I do judge based on someone's written words. But, I only do that when I have nothing else to go off of. I try not to, but I'm human, and let's face it - we tend to be judge-y as a general rule!

The only other thing I will throw out there as something to chew on is that perhaps much of this may be coming from voice detection programs like Siri and Dragon Naturally Speaking and such, which just "listen" for word detection, so the "would've" that someone dictates into their phone for FB, email, and the like may often come out as "would of". That, combined with the fact that most people tend not to proof their written work anymore, especially when it's things like social media, and email. The value is just not seen to present your written word better (beyond those who read and write regularly of course...)

I think that's ultimately what saddens me. I try not to cast aspersions on anyone that uses the "of" at all, but seeing it does make me grate my teeth from time to time!

Thanks for all the discussion and dialog here though - really gave me food for thought (as you can likely tell! LOL)

Helix · Mar 23, 2017

CBJason said:
Fair points to all on how it probably evolved - as a result of people who write they way they talk, because they do sound the same. Toward that end, it was probably not accurate for me to state that usage of these semantics is an indication of anything remotely resembling stupidity, laziness, lack of education or anything derogatory. The assessment that it likely is the result of not writing/reading very much I think is spot on.

To the other point that "if you get the meaning, then what's the harm?" - I do get the meaning, and you're right, no one was harmed per se.

BUT

The written word is different than the spoken word, and following the direction of writing like you talk is not good advice imho. If we do that, then the written word loses all structure and relevance.

I kud riet wike dis n git undurstud

I would respectfully submit that language is not meant to be written phonetically. If society moves in that direction as a whole, then writing as a craft will continue to lose appeal because no one will really see any need to learn any structure or parameters for commmunicating with these funnny things we are calling letters and words, verbs, sentences, pronouns and such.

It's ironic I am saying this, because I've been told that my writing is much to formalized, and I need to loosen up my style when I write. I think mine comes from my age and education, but even then, if you ask me about verb tenses and throw some other grammar terms in there, I would currently be woefully unprepared to explain several of them.

For instance, if you as me to explain th difference between the verb tenses of past, present, future, future imperfect, past subjunctive, and past perfect, I would likely fail. What's a participle? Is it dangling? Dunn0 - by maybe I used to and just plum forgot! LOL

All that and a literal cornucopia of other things can get very confusing, and I am certainly not one to waggle my curmudgeonly finger at others for not knowing all that, because I sure as hell don't know many of these examples well enough to be the arbiter of any kind of judgement. What's the old saying - judge not lest ye be judged? Yeah, that's my motto!

BUT, I learned about contractions in the 2nd or 3rd grade (I think), and my general hope/expectation is that a high school - well, maybe a college graduate...whichever, should have at least that level of understandin. Sadly though, many don't anymore. Can I change it? Nope, but I can grate my teeth or roll my eyes at it...and yes, I admit, occasionally I do judge based on someone's written words, but only when I have nothing else to go off of. I try not to, but I'm human, and let's face it - we tend to be judge-y kinda people.

The only other thing I will throw out there as something to chew on is that perhaps much of this may be coming from voice detection programs like Siri and Dragon Naturally Speaking and such, which just look for word detection, not grammar detection so the "would've" that someone dictates into their phone for FB, email, and the like may often come out as "would of". That, combined with the fact that most people tend not to proof their written work anymore, especially when it's things like social media, and email. The value is just not seen to present your written word better (beyond those who read and write regularly of course...)

I think that's ultimately what saddens me. I try not to cast dispersions on anyone that uses the "of" at all, but seeing it does make me grate my teeth from time to time!

Thanks for all the discussion and dialog here though - really gave me food for thought (as you can likely tell! LOL)

Did you proof read this post? It contains a number of typos and at least one malapropism. But I'm not judging.

Jason · Mar 23, 2017

Ha! No I didn't - re-reading it now. What's a malapropism?

It's just further proof of the point that I was making though, so tyvm!

. Hopefully you've not judged me too harshly...do I still sound semi-capable with the written word? (Wait, don't answer that - LOL)

Oh, and I think I fixed them all...tks!

Helix · Mar 23, 2017

CBJason said:
Ha! No I didn't - re-reading it now. What's a malapropism?

It's just further proof of the point that I was making though, so tyvm! . Hopefully you've not judged me too harshly...do I still sound semi-capable with the written word? (Wait, don't answer that - LOL)

Oh, and I think I fixed them all...tks!

Not all of them.

CBJason said:
Fair points to all on how it probably evolved - as a result of people who write they way they talk, because they do sound the same. Toward that end, it was probably not accurate for me to state that usage of these semantics is an indication of anything remotely resembling stupidity, laziness, lack of education or anything derogatory. The assessment that it likely is the result of not writing/reading very much I think is spot on.

To the other point that "if you get the meaning, then what's the harm?" - I do get the meaning, and you're right, no one was harmed per se.

BUT

The written word is different than the spoken word, and following the direction of writing like you talk is not good advice imho. If we do that, then the written word loses all structure and relevance.

I kud riet wike dis n git undurstud

I would respectfully submit that language is not meant to be written phonetically. If society moves in that direction as a whole, then writing as a craft will continue to lose appeal because no one will really see any need to learn any structure or parameters for commmunicating [communicating] with these funnny [funny] things we are calling letters and words, verbs, sentences, pronouns and such.

It's ironic I am saying this, because I've been told that my writing is much to [too] formalized, and I need to loosen up my style when I write. I think mine comes from my age and education, but even then, if you ask me about verb tenses and throw some other grammar terms in there, I would currently be woefully unprepared to explain several of them.

For instance, if you ask me to explain the difference between the verb tenses of past, present, future, future imperfect, past subjunctive, and past perfect, I would likely fail. What's a participle? Is it dangling? Dunno - but maybe I used to and just plum forgot! LOL

All that and a literal cornucopia [not a literal cornucopia] of other things can get very confusing. I am certainly not one to waggle my curmudgeonly finger at others for not knowing all that, because I sure as hell don't know many of these examples well enough to be the position of any kind of judgement. What's the old saying - judge not lest ye be judged? Yeah, that's my motto!

BUT, I learned about contractions in the 2nd or 3rd grade (I think), and my general hope/expectation is that a high school - well, maybe a college graduate...whichever, should have at least that level of understandin. Sadly though, many don't anymore. Can I change it? Nope, but I can grate my teeth or roll my eyes at it...and yes, I admit, occasionally I do judge based on someone's written words. But, I only do that when I have nothing else to go off of. I try not to, but I'm human, and let's face it - we tend to be judge-y as a general rule!

The only other thing I will throw out there as something to chew on is that perhaps much of this may be coming from voice detection programs like Siri and Dragon Naturally Speaking and such, which just "listen" for word detection, so the "would've" that someone dictates into their phone for FB, email, and the like may often come out as "would of". That, combined with the fact that most people tend not to proof their written work anymore, especially when it's things like social media, and email. The value is just not seen to present your written word better (beyond those who read and write regularly of course...)

I think that's ultimately what saddens me. I try not to cast dispersions [aspersions] on anyone that uses the "of" at all, but seeing it does make me grate my teeth from time to time!

Thanks for all the discussion and dialog here though - really gave me food for thought (as you can likely tell! LOL)

BethS · Mar 23, 2017

Once! said:
And there I was thinking that you liked our accent so much that you always get English actors to play the villain in Hollywood movies! Or the lead role in Star Trek NG and the Walking Dead.

Although I do have to apologise for Benedict Cumberbatch in Dr Strange ...

Why?

We do love the accent. Most of the time. :greenie

BethS · Mar 24, 2017

Thecla said:
Around here, some people do say "would of". Quite clearly. Others, just as clearly, say "would have" (sometimes contracted to "would've"). The two forms don't sound much alike here.

Really? How are they different?

BethS · Mar 24, 2017

Helix said:
Is there a single 'British' pronunciation? How do Italians and Mexicans pronounce those words?

I'm going by all the Brits I know (quite a few; Switzerland has a good-sized British ex-pat community), and they pronounce pasta and taco with the "a" like the "a" in cat. (so, PAST-a, TACK-o) Italians and Mexicans (and Americans) would rhyme it with the "a" in father. (PAHST-a, TAHK-o)

Thecla · Mar 24, 2017

BethS said:
Really? How are they different?

I'm don't know how you write sounds phonetically so I won't try. All I can say is that "would of" sounds like "would" followed by "of" with the d of "would" articulated. It sounds exactly like the two separate words (I'm not being trite or facetious, simply trying to explain using only a keyboard). "Would have" and "would've" are somehow softer and more blurred so that the two words run together (somewhat so in "would have" and completely so in "would've"). There is also "would'a" (which is, I think, a more complete contraction of "would have"); again the sounds run together but it doesn't sound like either "would've" or "would of".

BethS · Mar 24, 2017

Thecla said:
I'm don't know how you write sounds phonetically so I won't try. All I can say is that "would of" sounds like "would" followed by "of" with the d of "would" articulated. It sounds exactly like the two separate words (I'm not being trite or facetious, simply trying to explain using only a keyboard). "Would have" and "would've" are somehow softer and more blurred so that the two words run together (somewhat so in "would have" and completely so in "would've"). There is also "would'a" (which is, I think, a more complete contraction of "would have"); again the sounds run together but it doesn't sound like either "would've" or "would of".

OK, thanks for the explanation. I know it's hard to render phonetic differences on a keyboard.

Still, the whole reason this confusion between "would've" and "would of" has arisen is because the two ending sounds are, if not always identical, so close that people assume the second syllable is "of." Myself, I can't really hear a difference between the two, at least not in the places I've lived. In both cases, the phonetic pronunciation would be "uhv."

Thecla · Mar 24, 2017

BethS said:
OK, thanks for the explanation. I know it's hard to render phonetic differences on a keyboard.

Still, the whole reason this confusion between "would've" and "would of" has arisen is because the two ending sounds are, if not always identical, so close that people assume the second syllable is "of." Myself, I can't really hear a difference between the two, at least not in the places I've lived. In both cases, the phonetic pronunciation would be "uhv."

Okay, here goes: in the mouths of some people close by where I live, "of" after "would" doesn't sound like "ve" after "would". The closest I can get is that "of" sounds like "ov" and "ve" sounds like "uhv". I'll bow out now, having contributed what I can to this discussion. It is interesting to find out the variety of what is said and heard around the world. Thanks to all.

sohalt · Mar 24, 2017

CBJason said:
I would respectfully submit that language is not meant to be written phonetically. If society moves in that direction as a whole, then writing as a craft will continue to lose appeal because no one will really see any need to learn any structure or parameters for commmunicating with these funnny things we are calling letters and words, verbs, sentences, pronouns and such.

Eh, German is written pretty much phonetically. We still manage to make spelling mistakes - there are loan words, silent h, double ss, etc. Then there's the fact that words are pronounced differently in different dialects (when it comes to softness and hardness of ts and ds for example), but spelling is standardized based on only one of those dialects, which makes it a bit more difficult for anyone with a different one. But still, sounding out a word will generally give you a pretty good idea as to how to spell it. Spelling bees are not a thing in German speaking countries. Twas ever thus, and yet writing as a craft seems to hold some appeal for us.

Note, German is not particularly unique in this regard. I was taught that English is pretty much an outlier when it comes to the extent of its mismatch between spelling and pronunciation (explained, partly, for instance by the fact that English spelling got standardized quite a bit earlier than German, before you guys were quite done with the consonant and vowel shifts. When we read a bit of Old and Middle English in college, I was taught to pronounce the letters as I would pronounce them in German). There are lots of historical reasons for that development, which are beyond the scope of this comment (and I also remember too dimly). At any rate, it's not an intrinsic requirement for a language to have this kind of mismatch. That English has it, is entirely circumstantial.

Jason · Mar 24, 2017

Oh man, I had such problems with German in high school that I switched to Spanish after less than a quarter - I gave up after guten tag, vee gates, and danca gut (which of course are probably all spelled wrong because I am trying to do it based off how I say it!

Though, I will say that if we were meant to write phonetically though, creating the schwa a, an umlaut, and accent graves would be native parts of our keyboard and I wouldn't have to switch between an English keyboard layout, Spanish, French, and German.

Having to type in Chinese or other Asian languages with a different symbol for each word would literally make my eyes melt! LOL

I woefully have to leave the multiple language skillset with the siblings and my dad. My sister is fluent in English, French, and Swedish, my brother in Spanish, Portuguese and English, and my father topped us all with (wait for it):

Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, German, Finnish, Swedish, Russian, and a bit of Mandarin Chinese.

Oh wait, he dabbled in English a bit too!

sohalt · Mar 25, 2017

CBJason said:
Oh man, I had such problems with German in high school that I switched to Spanish after less than a quarter - I gave up after guten tag, vee gates, and danca gut (which of course are probably all spelled wrong because I am trying to do it based off how I say it!

Of course German spelling doesn't correspond to English pronunciation. Even English spelling doesn't correspond to English pronunciation.

My point is that the correspondence of spelling and pronunciation in German is way more consistent than in English, so a _German native speaker_ can fairly safely derive spelling from pronunciation (with all the caveats about different dialects, etc. As I said we do still manage to make spelling mistakes).

Germans don't spell "Wie geht's" as "Vee gates", because the rules of how to pronounce letters are different in German than in English. But once you've worked out the German rules, they are far less likely to let you down than the English ones. ("Wie geht's" is, admittedly, still a good example to slightly undermine my point, because it has that silent h in it that may trip up German native speakers as well. But I've already admitted as much. German spelling is not entirely without traps - it just has way fewer of them than English).

If you try to derive rules about the correspondence of sounds and letters in English, you might conclude that "fish" is spelled "ghoti" - "gh" pronounced as in "enough", "o" pronounced as in "women", and "ti" pronounced as in "nation".

You just don't get something like that in German.

Though, I will say that if we were meant to write phonetically though, creating the schwa a, an umlaut, and accent graves would be native parts of our keyboard and I wouldn't have to switch between an English keyboard layout, Spanish, French, and German.

Different languages use different sounds and different letters to represent them. I don't see why that would have anything to with whether or not there's supposed to be a correspondence between spelling and pronuncation in any given language. Those sounds you mention are not part of the English keyboard, because English doesn't use them. The languages that do however use them, as far as I know, in a fairly consistent manner. Letters for schwas and Umlauts etc are generally always pronounced the same way, which is not something you can say for many a letter in English.

Just because there's no "universal" correspondence of spelling and pronunciation, doesn't mean that individual languages cannot have internal consistency in that regard. And internal consistency is really all you need to say that spelling can be pretty much phonetical for any given language.

The Urban Spaceman · Mar 25, 2017

CBJason said:
Would've = would have
Could've = could have
Should've = should have

That's basic grammar, right? At what grade level did we all learn this? 2nd? 3rd?

I see this all over online, people spelling it out phonetically to:

would of
could of
should of

Is this laziness, ignorance, or lowering educational standards? Bugs the crap out of me to see this happening so prevalently. (Not here btw, just in general...)

I believe it's a misunderstanding of what's actually being said in the contraction. "Would've" sounds like "would of" and grammar is not everybody's strong point.

WriterDude said:
Its stupidity and bad hearing. In some dialects, should have sounds a little close to should'ov, and with the rise of text messages and email, this peculiar colloquialism is finding its way in to print, and unless schools bring back the cane I can only see it getting worse.

Is it the Magical Cane of Grammar Teaching+2? Because I don't see how a cane could assist with the retention of information. If I could improve my own grammar and general writing through the use of the cane, I would embrace self-flagellation on a daily basis.

morngnstar · Mar 25, 2017

I'm pretty forgiving of colloquialisms. I prefer to write "gonna", even outside dialogue. But this falls into the category of stupidity. It's in the same category with "peaked my interest". It reflects a lack of understanding or consideration of the meaning of what you're writing. The meaning of "should've" is unrelated to the usage of "of". It's not something "should" belongs or is related to. This is not a phonetic spelling of a dialectical reality, like "gonna", because "of" is a poor phonetic spelling already. Phonetically, it should be spelled "uv".

morngnstar · Mar 25, 2017

Albedo said:
A relative pronounces 'taco' to rhyme with the first two syllables of 'make-over', which I don't think has ever been correct anywhere.

I've heard "tack-o" but never "take-o".

morngnstar · Mar 25, 2017

MaeZe said:
It's incorrect. If we just accepted every sloppy use of language it wouldn't be long before dialects diverged so much as to be unintelligible across community lines.

That's a slippery slope argument. It might or might not be true. I think modern mass communication is likely to keep dialects mutually intelligible, even as language changes. Even if true, my reaction is "So what?" The Church tried to keep everybody speaking Latin, when they wanted to speak Spanish and Italian instead. Now they can't understand each other, but they don't seem to bothered by it.

morngnstar · Mar 25, 2017

talktidy said:
This annoys me almost as much as "off of", which drives me up the wall.

"Off of" is grammatically legitimate and has a distinct meaning from "off". It means moving off, as opposed to already off. It's the opposite of "onto", whereas "off" is the opposite of "on". I suppose it's a common misusage to use it not in this sense, for example "a cafe off of Main Street".

When did we start using "of" over 've?

Albedo

Alex

Thecla

Imagine a story

Helix

socially distancing

Albedo

Alex

blacbird

Once!

Still confused by shoelaces

King Neptune

Jason

Ideas bounce around in my head

Helix

socially distancing

Jason

Ideas bounce around in my head

Helix

socially distancing

BethS

BethS

BethS

Thecla

Imagine a story

BethS

Thecla

Imagine a story

sohalt

Jason

Ideas bounce around in my head

sohalt

The Urban Spaceman

Existential quandary

morngnstar

morngnstar

morngnstar

morngnstar