Do you think Trump will reshape America?

Coodles you need to read The Newbie Guide to Absolute Write immediately.

And you need to read and follow the Room expectations.

You're making a number of unsupported assertions, most of which you've been called on.

This isn't the place for that. I'd like to see some citations.

I'd also like to see you take writing a little more seriously than you seem to be doing in ACE & E.

Proofread and strive for coherency or don't bother posting.

Coodles said:

"deportation of people suspected of being Muslim" What the do you think this is? The red scare or maybe we should call it the brown scare? Who has been deported for being suspected of being a muslim? Even then who has been deported for being a muslim? Show me the person who has been deported for their religion and i will lose my shit and the next time i'm able to protest i'll be out on the streets with my signs and shit but i won't be because it's not real.

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Why was this woman deported? Or this woman?

Why was this woman turned away?

What is your interpretation of Giuliani saying that the president asked him how to legally implement a "Muslim ban"?

"the increase in crimes we've seen since the election" I wonder how much of that crime is coming from left-wing radicals?

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I don't know. Do some research, give us some numbers; let us know.

I can assure you racist people do not want to be racist and are not open about it in the way that you perceive them to be because i know a closet racist. He is literally my best friend who i probably could not have made it this far without and he secretly dislikes black people.

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Not sure you can generalize about all people acting the same. But no, I suppose they're not often open about it in the way you mean--joining the KKK or whatever. Many people who hold racist beliefs probably don't realize it. I didn't, when I was younger. It's just little things, like my boss saying "well, I don't want some guy intimidating my employees, especially not a Muslim guy" or my dad saying "you have to be tougher with the mechanics--most of 'em will look for places to fleece the gringos." It's not like either of them would refuse to associate with or serve people of color or other ethnicities or religions, or go around slinging slurs, or say to themselves "I really hate Muslims/Mexican people"; it's mostly a subconscious thing, gluing people together in a sheaf of characteristics rather than seeing them as individual beings.

The most interesting part is that he's german as well but i didn't see him goosestepping down the street yelling heil hitler after trump got into office and what's even better is that i was the one who was yelling heil hitler a long time ago in school.

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...Why would being German make you want to goose-step? And why were you yelling heil Hitler? I'm not sure what point this is making.

We talk about it a lot and he knows racism is fucking moronic but he cannot help how he feels so he bottles it up and hides it.

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It's good that he knows.

Racists do not openly parade their ideology anymore because they know they will lose everything if they do or they will simply be ignored by the rest of society for their stupidity and that is why some actual racists have been allowed some level of attention within the alt-right because they haven't been simply ignored.

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They do openly parade it; they just don't call it or acknowledge it as racism. They say instead they're crusading against political correctness or upholding free speech or freedom of religion, etc. The most insidious racist beliefs don't really go around wrapped up with a big "racist" sticker on the front; they look like something else. Patriotism. Pride. Protection. People in Nazi Germany didn't say "we hate Jews because we are racist." It was about Germany, pride in the Aryan race, nationalism, patriotism. Making things better. Safer for "us" by limiting the "them." Correct?

Does it help if we don't say "racists" and just talk about racist beliefs? I think those are more widespread and more dangerous, probably?

Also I'm wondering--if they're "allowed attention" and given book deals and television spots and so on and so forth, then how are they being ignored?

People have tried to take their rights away and have thus given them a platform to spew whatever nonsense they feel like spewing and now people have to read that nonsense and say he is a blithering idiot but people are trying to take away his right to be a blithering idiot which is unacceptable.

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Can I ask--what is a "right" to you? To me, it's something that the government can't make illegal. It's not something you can do with no social consequence. Like, I have the right to make a poster saying "Nelson Mandela was a vapid doofus" and post it where postings are allowed, right? But does that make it okay, or correct? Can no one say, "hey, you're wrong, and that's in really poor taste, and if you weren't a jerk you would take that down"? If not, doesn't that infringe on *their* right?

Or are you talking about something else? I'm not sure I understand what specific situation you're referring to. Maybe a concrete example would help? Can you give one?

all i can really say is beware the deconstruction of freedom of speech because the dismantler of that concept will be the first mouth to be gagged.

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I dunno, we already have a lot of limitations on freedom of speech. And they're getting more limited. GOP lawmakers keep pushing legislation to make it legal to hurt, arrest, or kill peaceful protestors; the president wants to make it illegal to burn the flag... I dunno. What specifically are you referring to?

I'm horrified by what's happening inside my country. Surprised? Less so. I'm old enough to have heard a lot of this song before, and I have my eyes open enough to recognize that people who are not, like me, middle-class white folks, have lived with discrimination and neglect even when times were good for folks like me. What's happening internally is hideous and demoralizing, but for the most part it's the usual GOP bullshit, just unchecked.

What we're doing internationally is flat-out alarming. Our international reputation has been entirely destroyed at this point - it's going to take decades of diplomacy, should we ever have diplomats in office again, to undo what's been done in a few months. And there are countries out there already reacting to and taking advantage of the chaos and ignorance of our current government. It's not just ourselves we've screwed here.

The most important thing we can do, I think, is to fight fiercely for our right (and the right of our fellows) to vote, and to speak out. When it becomes problematic to discuss issues and to disseminate accurate information, that's when totalitarianism begins to look like a real possibility.

The fact that I can write this here and not worry about repercussions suggests to me that there's still hope.

Coodles said:

"the increase in crimes we've seen since the election" I wonder how much of that crime is coming from left-wing radicals?

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This is the elixir the right wing keeps trying to sell so it's a good thing people keep getting arrested and we get to know who they are and what they stand for. The gunman who shot a protester in Seattle turned himself in and declared he was pro-Milo Y (and all he [and Breitbart] stand for); the several white men who have shot brown men while yelling Go Back To Your Country!

Believe me, I live in Seattle. Our reputation is still suffering from left-wing radicals starting the WTO riots in our city. I have as little love for the hard left as the hard right, but the only way to not see the obvious rise of authoritarianism, nativism and racism is to be in a bubble so thick the walls are opaque as plastic. Brian Kilmeade said on FOX yesterday

"Americans keep marrying other species and other ethnics. The Swedes have pure genes because they marry Swedes...Finns marry other Finns so they have a pure society..."

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Sounds a damn sight like something someone alive in Germany in 1929 would have heard from a small-minded zenophobe aspiring to become dictator there. It also sounds like the sort of country Bannon and his ilk are trying to ram down our throats here.

Brightdreamer said:

Many people have avoided politics when we really shouldn't have.

What's happening now is part of the fallout of that avoidance...

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Indeed. Like all the Trump voters I read interviewed post-election, who say, "Well, I don't pay attention to news or politics, so I think he's doing great!"

Josh Sanders said:

It is far above my pay grade to pretend to know the details of it all but I do believe at worse it can only last eight years right? It seems like it flip flops, democrat, republican, democrat, republican and so on and so on. Each time, each side swears it is the end of the earth and yet here we are... So, what do you all think? Is this Armageddon or is it just the other sides turn with the remote control?

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There are flip flops, yes, but the potential repercussions can last much longer than eight years. One of my biggest fears is how Trump's presidency will affect our diplomatic relations with other countries, for example. Supreme Court decisions are usually very long-lasting, and justices typically serve on the court for life, so Trump will likely have a legacy on our Supreme Court for decades to come. Decisions such as cutting funding from government agencies and appointing cabinet members who are corrupt or have dubious experience can seriously weaken our government and impede progress.

Also, let's not forget that the dead can never be brought back. Trump's restrictive travel policies have already put people's lives in danger, such as this Iranian baby who was initially barred from coming into the US for lifesaving heart surgery.

The Germany of today is not like Germany during the Holocaust, but the ethnic and religious makeup of Europe will never be what it would have been if six million Jews weren't killed. In the 1980s, the AIDS epidemic dealt a major blow to the gay community and gay rights movement. Reagan has been heavily criticized for not doing more to support research, prevention, and treatment. Today, many people who are HIV positive live long lives, but our community will never "recover" from the loss of all the people who died. Some decisions can never be undone or truly fixed.

"And what we did was we focused on, instead of religion, danger," Giuliani said.

"The areas of the world that create danger for us, which is a factual basis, not a religious basis. Perfectly legal, perfectly sensible."

Giuliani reiterated that the ban is "not based on religion."

"It's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country," he said.

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This woman was turned away because she did not have a visa

http://www.esta.us/canada.html
"U.S. Entry Requirements for Canadian Landed Immigrant
Landed immigrants in Canada with a passport from one of the 37 Visa Waiver countries must apply for ESTA if entering the United States via air or sea. Land border crossings do currently not require an approved ESTA, but Form I-94W (the green form) and Customs Form 6059B must be completed at the U.S. point of entry. Canadian Landed Immigrants from non-visa waiver countries are requited to apply for a U.S. visa."

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She did not have a visa according to http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...alaoui-morocco-donald-trump-ban-a7572331.html

"However, Ms Alaoui was given a form to sign that reads: 'Withdrawal of application for admission. Subject is inadmissible to the United States. An immigrant not in possession of a valid and expired immigrant's visa.'"

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Why wasn't that in the cbc report? Ok the cbc report was posted before the independent report but the cbc report was updated. Why is that information not given? She is a "Moroccan-born Canadian citizen" meaning she immigrated to canada from a non-Visa waiver program country which might cause her to be barred from entry into the united states. It has nothing to do with her religion and everything to do with where she's from and her own decision not to get a visa.

“Whenever I was in Europe ... if ever anybody criticized America, I would be the one defending it and saying, ‘You know, whatever you say, I feel that some of the greatest, most beautiful, most accomplished people also live in that land,’” she said. “From everything I’ve seen with the love and support from last week, that’s even more true.”

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Words from this woman in the article you linked.

Ok she was detained for 23 hours, unfortunate for her but where is she now? In the united states. The travel ban that was put into place was a fucking disaster in the sense of how it was implemented i think everyone can agree on that. This woman was not discriminated she was inconvenienced and that is a problem that is more than likely going to be fixed or has been fixed. I would be fine with her being given reprimand for her or anyone else's inconvenience even. Maybe their next flight is free or maybe they get the money back they spent on their last flight whatever it may be. The very fact that she is now in the country makes the point irrelevant because if we discriminated against muslims she would not be here right now.

'No one warned me'

That's bullshit. How long has trump been saying he wanted a "muslim" ban? There is no way you did not know something like this was going to happen and you still decided it was a good idea to leave the country. And can you guess where this woman is currently? She's in the united states as well.

"Nazanin Zinouri, a data scientist, cleared through an immigration check in Boston and is expected to return home Monday to Clemson, where the 29-year-old works for startup technology firm Modjoul, company founder Eric Martinez said in a phone interview."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sman-says-Iranian-woman-US.html#ixzz4bohxBuhC

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If you don't want to click the link that was posted on February 5th but it still proves the point that these people are not being discriminated against they are being inconvenienced.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...an-questions-changes-donald-trump-immigration

"The new order formally cancels the first, and tries to resolve legal problems raised by it. It narrows the countries down to six – Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Iran, Somalia and Libya. It explicitly exempts people with valid visas and green cards from the order, and says that Syrian refugees will not be treated differently than other refugees. Unlike the original, the order also makes clear that US agencies will review case-by-case exceptions.

The new order removes a provision that gave priority to religious minorities in their home countries – a section that opponents linked to the president’s stated preference for Christian refugees – but also defends it, saying: “That order was not motivated by animus toward any religion.”

The order is set to take effect at 00.01am on 16 March, at which point it would, barring challenge, suspend the refugee program for 120 days."

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"The survey of 27,715 respondents reached an estimated 2 percent of the adult transgender population in 2015"

2 percent of all transgender people in the united states is a not a good enough example of the discrimination that all transgender people face.

"It's good America is still wildly sexist"

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Explain to me how a wildly sexist country allows a WOMAN to run for president and almost win?

"Can no one say, "hey, you're wrong, and that's in really poor taste, and if you weren't a jerk you would take that down"? "

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That is exactly what needs to be said or not said at all and the problem is no one is saying that on the left. When you start punching people for being a "nazi" you are infringing on their rights and are using violence to push an agenda which literally makes you no different from the gestapo. The way you keep racists down is to not give them attention by hurting them physically but depriving them socially. You ignore them, you encourage others to ignore them and that is that. The reason why these people labeled as racists are getting all these book deals is because the corporate businesses know they are going to be seen because of how these "nazis" are being treated.

Explain to me how a racist country allows a black president to stay in office for 8 years. I've yet to have anyone give me a plausible reason.

Coodles said:

When you start punching people for being a "nazi" you are infringing on their rights and are using violence to push an agenda which literally makes you no different from the gestapo.

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That is just not true.

these people are not being discriminated against they are being inconvenienced.

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I'm just using this one quote because it's pretty much your whole argument.

These people are being inconvenienced because of their appearance/name and/or religion. THAT. IS. DISCRIMINATION.

Coodles said:

Explain to me how a wildly sexist country allows a WOMAN to run for president and almost win?

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Allows?

Moving on.

Ten worst countries for gender equality. Of those, two (Pakistan, Mali) have had women leaders.

coodles said:

these people are not being discriminated against they are being inconvenienced.

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Yup. Inconvenienced in the same way that African-American citizens back in the 1950s were "inconvenienced" because. in certain states, they couldn't use the same restrooms that white people (citizens or not) could use, or couldn't go to the same schools that white people could go to. Just an inconvenience.

caw

> This woman was turned away because she did not have a visa

You skipped a few important details.

The full story: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/canadian-woman-turned-away-border-1.4013478

1) she was singled out from a group of three women.
2) she was told to get a valid visa from the US embassy; the US embassy told her to get the visa at the border. Catch 22.
3) there is no visa requirement for Canadian-born citizens, which she is.
4) She had been singled out at a previous trip to the US. For no reason.

Sorry. That's discrimination.


> these people are not being discriminated against they are being inconvenienced

Wow.

Well, this woman lost her reservation to the spa, possibly a hotel reservation too. Plus the trip from Montreal to Ottawa to get the stupid visa. It's a couple hundred bucks lost, more or less. You call that inconvenience?

-cb

Coodles said:

This woman was not discriminated she was inconvenienced and that is a problem that is more than likely going to be fixed or has been fixed. .

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I find you inconvenient.

Coodles said:

Ok she was detained for 23 hours, unfortunate for her but where is she now? In the united states. The travel ban that was put into place was a fucking disaster in the sense of how it was implemented i think everyone can agree on that.

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The president does not.

The only reason the woman is back in the United States is because of court rulings that stand against the president's executive order, not because of a lack of discrimination. The attempt to discriminate on a broad level still exists and will continue to exist, and courts will have to keep striking it down and law enforcement will have to honor the court decisions in order for people not to be deported. If any part of that breaks down, we have a Muslim ban. The president is still attempting to enact discriminatory policy into law.

This woman was not discriminated she was inconvenienced and that is a problem that is more than likely going to be fixed or has been fixed

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Okay. Why was she inconvenienced? What was the cause? Why was she singled out for "inconvenience"?

At what point does inconvenience become discrimination, to you?

And no, given that the president has attempted to revise the ban to make it acceptable, given that he seems to keep pushing the issue, I don't think it's "more than likely going to be fixed." I think it's going to be a battle, and without people fighting against it, decent people will lose, and innocent people will be punished.

I would be fine with her being given reprimand for her or anyone else's inconvenience even. Maybe their next flight is free or maybe they get the money back they spent on their last flight whatever it may be. The very fact that she is now in the country makes the point irrelevant because if we discriminated against muslims she would not be here right now.

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If we didn't discriminate against Muslims, she wouldn't have been deported in the first place.

'No one warned me'

That's bullshit. How long has trump been saying he wanted a "muslim" ban? There is no way you did not know something like this was going to happen and you still decided it was a good idea to leave the country.

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I have a question.

You agree the president wants to ban Muslims. You think this woman should have restricted her activity and cut herself off from her family because of her religion, because the person in charge of the government has said they want to ban Muslims. Which is not a thing she would have to do if she were not Muslim.

But you disagree that discrimination exists in this country.

What is discrimination to you? How would you define it? And how does this not exemplify it?

That is exactly what needs to be said or not said at all and the problem is no one is saying that on the left. When you start punching people for being a "nazi" you are infringing on their rights and are using violence to push an agenda which literally makes you no different from the gestapo.

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I don't think that's accurate--but okay. Punching a man is not lawful. I agree. I may support it from a moral standpoint, but from a legal standpoint, nah. You may notice that the country has not been consumed by a wave of random Nazi-punching, and I don't think much Nazi-punching occurred prior to the election, either. So. What else would you like us to do here? Is your argument that Nazis and the alt-right have arisen because liberals have been punching them mercilessly for years? If so, can you provide evidence? If not, what is your argument specifically?

The way you keep racists down is to not give them attention by hurting them physically but depriving them socially. You ignore them, you encourage others to ignore them and that is that. The reason why these people labeled as racists are getting all these book deals is because the corporate businesses know they are going to be seen because of how these "nazis" are being treated.

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How are "they" being treated? Other than that one guy getting punched? I mean generally, in an overall sense? Have there been a lot of incidents of anti-white-supremacist violence? Did Milo Y. get his rights taken away at some point, such that he was given a book deal out of sympathy? Is that your argument? When were his rights taken away? What right-stealing incident was it that caused such pity for him that he was invited on national television, to speaking events, etc?

Explain to me how a racist country allows a black president to stay in office for 8 years. I've yet to have anyone give me a plausible reason.

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I'm not going to tell you this is a racist country. I will tell you, though, that this country has problems with racism and discrimination that it needs to confront and work to solve, or else it will be further consumed by them. Would you agree with that?

ETA: och crap. Took too long to type this.

Here's the thing, people.

I'm going to use Coodles as an example, which I grant you is unfair, because Coodles can't respond.

I didn't ban Coodles because I disagreed with Coodles, but because Coodle's basic thesis as expressed in this post and this post is

Coodles said:

Since we have to bring race into everything I'm an african-american from literally the bottom of alabama and let me tell you america is not a racist place nor is there any harassment of "colored people" or LGBTQ people going on. If someone tells you america is a racist place they are lying to you.

"deportation of people suspected of being Muslim" What the do you think this is? The red scare or maybe we should call it the brown scare? Who has been deported for being suspected of being a muslim? Even then who has been deported for being a muslim? Show me the person who has been deported for their religion and i will lose my shit and the next time i'm able to protest i'll be out on the streets with my signs and shit but i won't be because it's not real.

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In the following post Coodles attempted to, kind of, to support his thesis via links, except the links didn't in fact support the thesis, they undermined it by contradicting Coodle's assertions.

To wit:

• Multiple acknowledgements that the Canadian woman was a Canadian citizen.
• Canadian citizens do not have to have a visa, again, asserted in the links provided by Coodles
• References to the woman's appearance, hajiib and ethnicity in the articles linked by Coodles regarding why the woman was singled out.

Finally, assertions like this

Coodles said:

People who share your apparent political ideology all have the same thing in common and that is that you're misguided in your placement of blame and hate and are chasing ghosts. You forcefully put a mask on people who are different from yourselves and then beat them over the head because they're wearing a mask you put on them. I can assure you racist people do not want to be racist and are not open about it in the way that you perceive them to be because i know a closet racist.

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This is an attempt to argue from anecdote but it's also circular logic in that the poster is engaging in the behavior he is asserting other are engaging in.

It's also a basic violation of the RYFW rule.

These are instances where the posters own language defeats his argument (emphasis mine).

Coodles said:

Explain to me how a wildly sexist country allows a WOMAN to run for president and almost win?

Click to expand...

Coodles said:

Explain to me how a racist country allows a black president to stay in office for 8 years. I've yet to have anyone give me a plausible reason.

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These are not arguments, they are at best dyslogistic opinions that contradict themselves; see the bolded text.

Finally, we've had a rash of new posters to ACH & E who seem to not realize that they're not in a position to demand anything from other members beyond citations and courtesy, and that we're serious about our expectations around RYFW.

I appreciate very much that people have not responded with a similar level of rudeness. I really really appreciate that.

First, thanks for not closing the thread. Second, I'm going to state my thought that Coodles should not be banned for expressions in this thread. That only reinforces the concept of unfairness here. The illogic and unsupported and unsupportable assertions made serve simply to demonstrate the basic vacuity of the position taken, and those things have been vigorously countered by many people here, with far more cogent points to make. We seem to have lost some of our long-time conservative arguers here, largely, I guess, because they were having the same problem, and couldn't take being called out on it. I actually think that's unfortunate.

A couple of nights ago I saw John Cleese, in a live performance here in my town, and he made (with great hilarity) the point that Monty Python was a legendary success because the performers (all writers) were given complete free reign to be as silly as they wanted to be. We need a continuing recognition of silliness whenever we can express it. We've had plenty of it in this thread, and it's been recognized.

caw

I'm not sure about that. I am more than happy to debate policies with people who disagree with me. But there's a certain level of poster who misrepresents, if not outright lies, whose logic is not just faulty but nonexistent, and whose irrational prejudices leak out between the lines.

If you'll pardon the analogy, it's like trying to have a debate with Donald Trump – pointless and ultimately disgusting.

I am sick of these people and have no desire to interact with them any further.

It's true that many conservative posters have abandoned this forum and gone elsewhere. Which is a shame, because it certainly takes away a certain diversity and edge that I enjoyed. But honestly, some of them were hit and run posters – they would posit an opinion and then be unable or unwilling to defend it.

And although I am sincerely sorry that some of them have left, there were others that I found to be unpleasant people as well as holding what I consider to be unpleasant views of the world, and I can't say I miss them one bit.

Anyone who wants to post here may rise to the standards of the room.

Coodles said:

Since we have to bring race into everything I'm an african-american from literally the bottom of alabama and let me tell you america is not a racist place nor is there any harassment of "colored people" or LGBTQ people going on. If someone tells you america is a racist place they are lying to you.

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When I go to the movie theater alone, or with girlfriends, it's just a trip to the theater.
When I go with my White husband, it's just a trip to the theater.

When I've gone to the movies with my friend Ken, who is 6'3" and Black, we've been followed by cops. I've had security wait for me outside the bathroom to ask if everything's alright (because if this big Black man were kidnapping me, I'm sure the first thing he'd do is take me to see "Frozen".) The ticket takers will make a point to say "there's no talking during the movie" which is something I never hear unless Ken is with me.

No, he's never been shot, or arrested, or even menaced by police that I know of, but just the everyday racism is horrifying. He says he doesn't notice it anymore--it's just a fact of life. I have to wonder how he lives with it all the time without going crazy.

-------------
ETA -- Sorry. I didn't notice before posting that this tosspot had been banned. Good.

I probably shouldn't have responded to this particular post, but as a White, American born, cis-gendered, straight woman, I don't often see the prejudice for myself. If you're White in America, it can be easy to believe it doesn't exist anymore. I think it's important that those of us who may not experience discrimination acknowledge that our experience is not universal, so I'm going to leave it. If requested, however, I will delete this post.

blacbird said:

First, thanks for not closing the thread. Second, I'm going to state my thought that Coodles should not be banned for expressions in this thread. That only reinforces the concept of unfairness here. The illogic and unsupported and unsupportable assertions made serve simply to demonstrate the basic vacuity of the position taken, and those things have been vigorously countered by many people here, with far more cogent points to make. We seem to have lost some of our long-time conservative arguers here, largely, I guess, because they were having the same problem, and couldn't take being called out on it. I actually think that's unfortunate.

A couple of nights ago I saw John Cleese, in a live performance here in my town, and he made (with great hilarity) the point that Monty Python was a legendary success because the performers (all writers) were given complete free reign to be as silly as they wanted to be. We need a continuing recognition of silliness whenever we can express it. We've had plenty of it in this thread, and it's been recognized.

caw

Click to expand...

rugcat said:

I'm not sure about that. I am more than happy to debate policies with people who disagree with me. But there's a certain level of poster who misrepresents, if not outright lies, whose logic is not just faulty but nonexistent, and whose irrational prejudices leak out between the lines.

If you'll pardon the analogy, it's like trying to have a debate with Donald Trump – pointless and ultimately disgusting.

I am sick of these people and have no desire to interact with them any further.

It's true that many conservative posters have abandoned this forum and gone elsewhere. Which is a shame, because it certainly takes away a certain diversity and edge that I enjoyed. But honestly, some of them were hit and run posters – they would posit an opinion and then be unable or unwilling to defend it.

And although I am sincerely sorry that some of them have left, there were others that I found to be unpleasant people as well as holding what I consider to be unpleasant views of the world, and I can't say I miss them one bit.

Click to expand...

Not trying to start something, but my guess is that those posters, and of course we may or may not be thinking of the same ones, would probably disagree with that assessment.

There are a lot of long time posters that were, at least IMHO, able to hold their own. I'm probably one of the more conservative people left here. (And the fact that I identify as an independent, not republican, am pro choice and was pro marriage equality before either Obama or Clinton were tells you I'm hardly a right wing zealot.) I'm not going to name names, as they aren't here to defend themselves, but there are voices that are missing that I respected. Often, I disagreed with them, as I do with those here.

That's not, and should not be seen as a defense of a few posters that popped up in this thread, that I'd never interacted with.

Again, this is my personal opinion.

Vince524 said:

Not trying to start something, but my guess is that those posters, and of course we may or may not be thinking of the same ones, would probably disagree with that assessment.

There are a lot of long time posters that were, at least IMHO, able to hold their own. I'm probably one of the more conservative people left here. (And the fact that I identify as an independent, not republican, am pro choice and was pro marriage equality before either Obama or Clinton were tells you I'm hardly a right wing zealot.) I'm not going to name names, as they aren't here to defend themselves, but there are voices that are missing that I respected. Often, I disagreed with them, as I do with those here.

That's not, and should not be seen as a defense of a few posters that popped up in this thread, that I'd never interacted with.

Again, this is my personal opinion.

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I'm not going to get into specifics of who I do or do not find unpleasant. After all, that is almost by definition nothing more than a personal opinion. I would say I have a distaste for more of those on the right then on the left, but I will also say that I find some of those on the right to be perfectly pleasant people. I just disagree with their outlook on many specifics.

Likewise, there are a few on the left who I basically agree with on political matters but personally I do not care for it all.

I disagree with you on lots of things, Vince, but have never found you to be irrational or unpleasant in any fashion. Perhaps that is not unrelated to your decision to stay here and poke at us lefties once in a while.

blacbird said:

We seem to have lost some of our long-time conservative arguers here, largely, I guess, because they were having the same problem, and couldn't take being called out on it. I actually think that's unfortunate.

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this isn't the first time since the election that you've taken a veiled victory lap over the bones of those who have moved on. instead of latching on to the conclusion that makes you feel the smartest, you might want to actually dig in a bit and find out what really went on.

i can assure you, in my case anyway, that it has nothing to do with some fear that i can't hold my own in debates here or back up my arguments.

William Haskins said:

this isn't the first time since the election that you've taken a veiled victory lap over the bones of those who have moved on. instead of latching on to the conclusion that makes you feel the smartest, you might want to actually dig in a bit and find out what really went on.

i can assure you, in my case anyway, that it has nothing to do with some fear that i can't hold my own in debates here or back up my arguments.

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I'm with you. I do my best to stay out of political discussions because you rarely find discussions anymore, they usually become (very quickly) flame wars or an echo chamber of sycophantic praise and agreement. Discussion is hard to find these days. And by "these days" I mean from well before this election.

Do I think Trump will reshape the nation? Oh, hell yes--he's already started, using with the golden hammer and silver sickle presented by his buddy Vlad the Impaler--s6

William Haskins said:

this isn't the first time since the election that you've taken a veiled victory lap over the bones of those who have moved on. instead of latching on to the conclusion that makes you feel the smartest, you might want to actually dig in a bit and find out what really went on.

i can assure you, in my case anyway, that it has nothing to do with some fear that i can't hold my own in debates here or back up my arguments.

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They have every right to post or not post where they want. They're not hurting any one. It's certainly not a matter of inability on their parts.

Nor do they owe anyone any kind of explanation.

In other words:

blacbird, stop stirring other people's shit. You've got enough of your own with respect to where you choose to post, that really, you'd do better to back off.