Do you think Trump will reshape America?

He's not one man, he's the puppet on top of the hand of a man who has publicly stated he wants to destroy the government, a man who believes Ayn Rand had really good, implementable ideas, and a handful of creepy white supremacists.

So... if they're not stopped, or if we don't secede, we'll be sitting atop a dumpster fire, imo.

If he and his handlers do reshape the nation, it won't be for the better.

He and his handlers are already providing a bad example for Canadian politicians. http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...an-politics/ar-BByid6n?li=AAggNb9&OCID=FIRPLC
Can you not isolate him in some way? 'Cause a wall is starting to look good. And some sort of Internet filter.

frimble3 said:

He and his handlers are already providing a bad example for Canadian politicians. http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...an-politics/ar-BByid6n?li=AAggNb9&OCID=FIRPLC

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The right-wing parties trying to pull that same shit in Australia. It's not working for them.

frimble3 said:

Can you not isolate him in some way? 'Cause a wall is starting to look good. And some sort of Internet filter.

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I endorse this proposal.

Let's also don't forget Russia.

If Canada builds a wall, can you just put a door in? Or build it a little, er, south?

He's already done it, to no small extent.

caw

frimble3 said:

He and his handlers are already providing a bad example for Canadian politicians. http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...an-politics/ar-BByid6n?li=AAggNb9&OCID=FIRPLC
Can you not isolate him in some way? 'Cause a wall is starting to look good. And some sort of Internet filter.

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You guys should announce that you're building a wall, and that the US is paying for it. And you should call it AMABO KCARAB, and put the letters on top of the wall, so Trump has to read it backwards. Seriously, though, it would be interesting to see how he would respond to being expected to pay for something like that.

You mean from the increase in crimes we've seen since the election, the seemingly endless harassment, detention, arrest and deportation of people suspected of being Muslim, brown-skinned, non-citizens or whatever, the move to change laws that protect LGBTQ people? How would that put people in danger?

Josh Sanders said:

Wow, I had no idea, like I said I avoid politics, it just causes well... you know. It seems hard to ignore now, I don't ever remember the country so divided.

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Being able to ignore politics is a position of privilege.

Josh Sanders said:

Wow, I had no idea, like I said I avoid politics, it just causes well... you know. It seems hard to ignore now, I don't ever remember the country so divided.

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Many people have avoided politics when we really shouldn't have.

What's happening now is part of the fallout of that avoidance...

I don't think he's reshaping the nation so much as a reflection of what it's becoming already. A populist leader emerging is the logical next step in the process that started decades ago. Where this movement goes has less to do with Trump, imo, and more to do with the fervor and focus of his supporters and the shrewdness and unity of the Right.

As an example, Hitler didn't create anti-semitism in Germany, but anti semitism, along with the miserable economic conditions, created angry, scared, demoralized people and the demand for a demagogue, which he filled. A different demagogue might have had a different outcome than he did, or taken a different approach, but looking at the situation in that time and place, it's unsurprising that someone rose up to fill the void. Same for other totalitarian movements that have emerged over the last century or so. They don't happen in a vacuum, and neither did Trump's presidency.

So maybe a better question is, "Will the movement, of which Trump is the leader or figurehead (take your pick) reshape America?" The fear of those of us who dislike Trump's movement is that we think it has many things in common with historical movements that have led to different forms of totalitarianism, including fascism, in other countries, and totalitarianism is anathema to what this country is supposed to be, and it's never something that results in more rights, prosperity, and freedom for most citizens.

There are some rays of hope for us (in terms of us eventually resisting this movement and not ending up as a totalitarian state). There are some things working in their favor too, however.

Josh Sanders said:

Do you all think that minorities in any form, people of color or lgbtq people are in any danger at all? I hear things but I can never tell how much is just... talk or real.

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Yes I do. Bad things are already happening.

Regardless of how things end up, many people will suffer, and some will likely die, from the changes that will happen over the next few years.

My question for the OP is do you see this movement changing America, and if so, how?

Josh Sanders said:

Wow, I had no idea, like I said I avoid politics, it just causes well... you know. It seems hard to ignore now, I don't ever remember the country so divided.

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People being detained, deported, harassed, assaulted, etc., isn't politics.

Me either, and it's in part because people didn't have an interest in politics, and elected someone, on purpose, who had zero experience in, or knowledge of politics.

Thus we find ourselves with, as far as we know, no State Department, several insulted foreign governments, confusion and chaos far and wide, and see above.

Yeah, no.

When "the other side" has control, they don't normally try to destroy the actual government, shutter agencies, defund agencies, close the STATE DEPARTMENT... this is entirely unprecedented, bizarre, and no one knows what the fuck to do with it, because it's not being done by people who are predictable or, seemingly, logical.

Bush was a disaster, but he wasn't this. Bush and his cabal of evil actually knew how the government worked and did not aspire to dismantle it in its entirety. That was not their stated goal.

cornflake said:

You mean from the increase in crimes we've seen since the election, the seemingly endless harassment, detention, arrest and deportation of people suspected of being Muslim, brown-skinned, non-citizens or whatever, the move to change laws that protect LGBTQ people? How would that put people in danger?

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Since we have to bring race into everything I'm an african-american from literally the bottom of alabama and let me tell you america is not a racist place nor is there any harassment of "colored people" or LGBTQ people going on. If someone tells you america is a racist place they are lying to you.

"deportation of people suspected of being Muslim" What the do you think this is? The red scare or maybe we should call it the brown scare? Who has been deported for being suspected of being a muslim? Even then who has been deported for being a muslim? Show me the person who has been deported for their religion and i will lose my shit and the next time i'm able to protest i'll be out on the streets with my signs and shit but i won't be because it's not real.

"the increase in crimes we've seen since the election" I wonder how much of that crime is coming from left-wing radicals?

People who share your apparent political ideology all have the same thing in common and that is that you're misguided in your placement of blame and hate and are chasing ghosts. You forcefully put a mask on people who are different from yourselves and then beat them over the head because they're wearing a mask you put on them. I can assure you racist people do not want to be racist and are not open about it in the way that you perceive them to be because i know a closet racist. He is literally my best friend who i probably could not have made it this far without and he secretly dislikes black people. The most interesting part is that he's german as well but i didn't see him goosestepping down the street yelling heil hitler after trump got into office and what's even better is that i was the one who was yelling heil hitler a long time ago in school. We talk about it a lot and he knows racism is fucking moronic but he cannot help how he feels so he bottles it up and hides it. Racists do not openly parade their ideology anymore because they know they will lose everything if they do or they will simply be ignored by the rest of society for their stupidity and that is why some actual racists have been allowed some level of attention within the alt-right because they haven't been simply ignored. People have tried to take their rights away and have thus given them a platform to spew whatever nonsense they feel like spewing and now people have to read that nonsense and say he is a blithering idiot but people are trying to take away his right to be a blithering idiot which is unacceptable. It's more unacceptable that people are infringing on his rights than it is that he is saying something that someone considers to be racist or actually is racist.

all i can really say is beware the deconstruction of freedom of speech because the dismantler of that concept will be the first mouth to be gagged.

A list of stories of people denied entry, turned back, detained, etc.

Muhammad Ali, Jr. held and questioned about his religion in an airport.

A survey in which transgender people report being harassed.

LGBTQ people are more likely to be victims of hate crimes.

For a country that's not racist, it's interesting that --

There were 5,818 single-bias incidents involving 7,121 victims. Of those victims, 59.2 percent were targeted because of a race/ethnicity/ancestry bias

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and that --

While white victims account for approximately one-half of all murder victims, 80% of all Capital cases involve white victims. Furthermore, as of October 2002, 12 people have been executed where the defendant was white and the murder victim black, compared with 178 black defendants executed for murders with white victims.

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and that --

“The standard assumption that criminals are black and blacks are criminals is so prevalent that in one study, 60 percent of viewers who viewed a crime story with no picture of the perpetrator falsely recalled seeing one, and of those, 70 percent believed he was African-American. When we think about crime, we ‘see black,’ even when it’s not present at all.”

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It's good America is still wildly sexist, otherwise god knows how bad it'd be w/re that!

Josh Sanders said:

I will have to try and cheer us up if possible lol, America has survived worse, by far. We have been through some pretty awful S&#% and here we still stand each time better for it.

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We have, and I hope we come out okay on the other side of this too. But just as not every individual came out well, or even survived, crises we've had in the past, not everyone will do well, or even survive, this crisis.

People who are members of vulnerable groups, or people who are genuinely afraid of losing rights or legal protections, aren't going to be too comforted by the knowledge that America as a whole will likely survive this.

It is far above my pay grade to pretend to know the details of it all but I do believe at worse it can only last eight years right?

It seems like it flip flops, democrat, republican, democrat, republican and so on and so on. Each time, each side swears it is the end of the earth and yet here we are... So, what do you all think? Is this Armageddon or is it just the other sides turn with the remote control?

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It can take a lot longer than eight years to reverse changes that took place in one administration, though. Especially when they have congress and the courts on their side too.

What if we end up in a war because of Trump's saber rattling ways? Can the effects of that be reversed once he's out of office? Will the people who are injured or die get their lives back? Have we recovered from what happened on 9-11 (and the subsequent wars) yet? Have we recovered from the Citizen's United decision? Have we fully recovered from the great Recession (I know many people who are still not employed with the pay and benefits they were before 08). And we'll likely be living with whichever justices he picks for the rest of my life, at least. The odds of ending up with a liberal-leaning, or even moderate, court in my lifetime now seems pretty slim.

I live in CA, and our schools and universities haven't recovered from a certain Proposition that was passed in the 1970s.

Also consider that Trump and his administration aren't just ordinary Republicans. As much as I loathe their politics, I'd a hundred times rather it were Kasich or Jeb Bush in the White House today. Ideology aside, it's not at all clear to me that the Trump administration is sincere in any desire to make this country work better for most people, nor do they have the experience, temperament or qualifications I want to see in our leaders (be they liberal or conservative).

FWIW, I'd also be worried if a liberal populist with no qualifications for the highest office in the land were elected under the auspices of wanting to "Make America Great Again" as well. In fact, one of the consequences I worry most about is the Democrats becoming a twisted, left-wing parody of the alt right.

Celia Cyanide said:

You guys should announce that you're building a wall, and that the US is paying for it. And you should call it AMABO KCARAB, and put the letters on top of the wall, so Trump has to read it backwards. Seriously, though, it would be interesting to see how he would respond to being expected to pay for something like that.

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Yeah, he'll declare the U.S. bankrupt, and we'll be left with a half-finished, unpaid-for wall. Maybe we'll get the Alaskan panhandle back in the settlement?

Coodles said:

I can assure you racist people do not want to be racist and are not open about it in the way that you perceive them to be because i know a closet racist.

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And you think this one person represents all racism in this country?

Josh Sanders said:

I will have to try and cheer us up if possible lol, America has survived worse, by far. We have been through some pretty awful S&#% and here we still stand each time better for it.

It is far above my pay grade to pretend to know the details of it all but I do believe at worse it can only last eight years right? It seems like it flip flops, democrat, republican, democrat, republican and so on and so on. Each time, each side swears it is the end of the earth and yet here we are... So, what do you all think? Is this Armageddon or is it just the other sides turn with the remote control?

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There is also a lot more you can do. There are a lot of people who never really paid attention to politics before, and, like you, feel they cannot ignore it anymore. This forum is not just about what is going on, but what we can do about it. Hang out more and read the stickies, if you're interested.

Celia Cyanide said:

And you think this one person represents all racism in this country?

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The KKK is just one very busy bloke in Alabama.

Josh Sanders said:

It is far above my pay grade to pretend to know the details of it all but I do believe at worse it can only last eight years right?

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Check this timeline. See what can happen in eight years.

Or this timeline, for what can happen in four years.

Are these extreme examples? Yeah. But things can happen fast, is my point. Things are already happening. If you're not paying attention, learn to. Learn how totalitarianism starts, how it evolves. If it depresses you, take a break--that's perfectly understandable, this shit is hard to take in--but don't deny or make little of what's going on because it's hard to deal with. That only hurts everyone else.