Is it a gerund or a verb?

Ava Meeple

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start running marathons

"Start" is a verb but not an auxiliary. (At least I don't think it is. It's not a form of "have" or "be." It's not a modal.) "Running" answers "what?"
I think "running" is a direct object in the form of a gerund which takes "marathons" as its own direct object. But it looks like it should be part of the verb, "start." Which is it? Thanks!
 

Bufty

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What is the full sentence from which this phrase is taken?

Are you sure you've phrased your question properly?

'running marathons' appears to be a gerund phrase.
 
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Maryn

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FWIW, you can usually lose the word "start" in sentences like that. Context might make it worth keeping, but often it doesn't. Maybe He wanted to run marathons works just as well as him wanting to start running marathons, unless his desire of the starting is important.

But let's say we keep your phrase exactly as it's now written. In that case, we absolutely must know the whole sentence. If it's We wanted to start running marathons it's an infinitive phrase serving as a direct object to the verb wanted.

If it's We start running marathons, then running marathons is a gerund phrase, as Bufty says.

Fast review of gerunds? The -ing word or phrase has to be used as a noun, and it can only be the subject, indirect object, direct object, or object of a preposition.
Running marathons takes dedication. (subject)
He gave running marathons most of his free time. (indirect object)
She adored running marathons. (direct object)
Her love of running marathons evaporated. (object of preposition)

Maryn, now clear as mud
 

ironmikezero

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Start running marathons. Hmm, add a period and it becomes a complete sentence. The inferred subject is second person you. `Sorry, couldn't resist . . . :tongue
 

Maryn

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I'm pretty sure I cannot obey your order, ironmike! Bad knees, advancing years, and a ton of other worthy excuses. (Whew!)
 

Richard White

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I believe this is using "start" in the imperative mode. (Definitely not in the accusative, dative, genitive, or the other verb tenses I'm going blank on.)
 

Ava Meeple

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Thanks for the help.

Here's the thing. I diagram sentences for fun. When I reread a book I particularly like, I watch for interesting sentences to diagram, but I get nervous quoting copyrighted material.

The phrase I gave is based on a much longer sentence and is the second half of a compound infinitive with an understood "to" before start. The actual phrase was "...start justifying the gold." I kept the word "start" and substituted "running marathons" for "justifying the gold" to keep the pattern and focus on what confused me.

Bufty, I'm not sure how else I would have phrased the question. If the gerund had been the subject I wouldn't have questioned it. Just seeing it right beside the verb had me second guessing maybe because the gerund phrase has its own object.
 

Dawnstorm

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If the gerund had been the subject I wouldn't have questioned it. Just seeing it right beside the verb had me second guessing maybe because the gerund phrase has its own object.

Well, gerund phrases often have their own objects, even in subject position: "Running marathons is fun."

For what it's worth, this is one of the most disputed areas in grammar, with some grammarians simply not using the term "gerund" at all, either saying it's participles all the way or using another term such as "ing-form".
 

Ava Meeple

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I had not heard of this. Is this the reason why I see some diagrams where gerunds - clearly used as nouns - are diagrammed like participles on pedestals rather than on stepped pedestals?
 

blacbird

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I had not heard of this. Is this the reason why I see some diagrams where gerunds - clearly used as nouns - are diagrammed like participles on pedestals rather than on stepped pedestals?

Try hard to forget about sentence diagrams, and concentrate on what your sentence actually says. If it is ambiguous, change it to make it not so. No amount of grammatical scaffolding will take the place of simple clarity.

caw
 

Ava Meeple

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Try hard to forget about sentence diagrams, and concentrate on what your sentence actually says. If it is ambiguous, change it to make it not so. No amount of grammatical scaffolding will take the place of simple clarity.

Diagramming is fun like doing a crossword or sudoku puzzle. It's a picture of how all the parts of a sentence relate to each other, a way to analyze what a sentence is actually saying and how. Besides, I'm not diagramming as I write. I look for sentences with interesting structures "in the wild" as I read. The sentences I pick are well-written sentences. I already know what they mean. I just enjoy uncovering how they were constructed.
 

blacbird

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Diagramming sentences is the handiwork of Satan, inflicted on seventh-graders by demon-possessed teachers of grammar, for the purpose of introducing them to what going to The Bad Place would be like.

Diagram that one.

caw
 

Ava Meeple

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Diagramming sentences is the handiwork of Satan, inflicted on seventh-graders by demon-possessed teachers of grammar, for the purpose of introducing them to what going to The Bad Place would be like.

Diagram that one.

caw

Well since, you asked...

Sentence%20Diagram.jpg


That was fun. Sorry about the handwriting. I think I got the prepositional phrase "to what going to The Bad Place would be like" right. It was ninth grade here, but even though my teacher made us diagram every day, it's been a looong time.
 

Dawnstorm

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I had not heard of this. Is this the reason why I see some diagrams where gerunds - clearly used as nouns - are diagrammed like participles on pedestals rather than on stepped pedestals?

It's possible. I'm not sure. I don't have much experience with Reed-Kellogg diagrams, since we've never done them in school, and when I learned English more in depth at university we skipped over traditional grammar altogether, since linguists don't use it (much).

There's a problem with the term "clearly used as nouns", though. In "Running marathons is fun," would you say "running" is used as a noun? The subject is the entire phrase, not just the participle/gerund thingy (I'm not calling it either, because classification is at issue here). Traditional grammar would call it a nominal phrase, because of its subject function. I'm not sure whether traditional grammarians think that a nominal phrase has to contain a noun in the prominent position ("marathons" is a noun, but it's not the word that defines the phrase).

Because of problems like this, linguists tend to use different theories. I'm sure you've seen those tree diagrams that always branch off into smaller and smaller units. Those are phrase structure diagrams, where you basically split clauses and phrases until you arrive at single words. The definition of word classes don't involve reference to their function, but they're defined by how they behave in a sentence (and what you can do with them). So "running marathons" in a variant of structural grammar is a participle phrase, no matter where it occurs in a sentence. That takes care of cases like "my loud singing" vs. "my singing loudly", because subjects or objects no longer require nouns, but can take phrases (or clauses). [The distinction between phrases and clauses is also handled differently than it is in traditional grammar.]

As I said, I have little experience with traditional grammar, but if a nominal phrase doesn't have to include a noun, then it's possible to have noun-less subject or object, with the phrase itself (rather than the individual words within it) taking over the function. That would also mean that a noun-phrase (a phrase defined over its noun) is only a sub-type of the broader type "nominal phrase". I could see traditional grammarians argue like that and thus treat the gerund as a participle. Whether this actually happens, or whether seeing a gerund diagrammed as a participle is just a "mistake" I don't know, since I've never gone that deeply into traditional grammar. I'm more a structuralist myself.
 
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Ed_in_Bed

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Don't you think things can be overthunk? Just write words.