Muslim Ban 2.0

Cmalone · Mar 6, 2017

The new ban is down to six countries:

President Donald Trump signed a revised executive order on Monday banning citizens from six Muslim-majority nations from traveling to the United States but removing Iraq from the list, after his controversial first attempt was blocked in the courts.

The new order, which takes effect on March 16, keeps a 90-day ban on travel to the United States by citizens of Iran, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. It applies only to new visa applicants, meaning some 60,000 people whose visas were revoked under the previous order will now be permitted to enter.

Immigration advocates said the new ban still discriminated against Muslims and failed to address some of their concerns with the previous order. Legal experts said it would, however, be harder to challenge because it affects fewer people living in the United States and allows more exemptions to protect them.

http://reuters.com/article/idUSKBN16D154

cbenoi1 · Mar 6, 2017

Someone explains to me how come borders have to be shut down in order to perform an administrative review. Can't the two be performed at the same time? It's like shutting down a Walmart for three hours while someone sweeps the floors. Doesn't make sense to me.

-cb

blacbird · Mar 6, 2017

So, how does this minor tweak get the order beyond blockage by the courts? I don't see anything different in principle about it.

caw

tiggs · Mar 6, 2017

Presumably, someone will need to challenge it in court, otherwise it goes into effect.

Any news of legal challenges, yet?

cornflake · Mar 6, 2017

It has to go into effect first, to have someone to sue.

They think by removing references to religion they're good, I believe.

Aside from that it was Trump's own statements outside of the order (along with members of his administration and the ever-helpful Giuliani) that really sunk it on the religious test.

If that doesn't get it, I'd think someone will challenge it because it names countries.

Brightdreamer · Mar 6, 2017

Last I heard, the Washington State AG who filed one of the suits against Round 1 was still reviewing the new order to see what (if any) action he intends to take over Round 2.

I do hope it won't be let stand simply because it's slightly less heinous. Feels very calculated - like those abortion bans that start with the "heartbeat" cutoff, before most women know their pregnant, and a second bill, coincidentally introduced round about the same time, pushes the ban back to the first trimester, and the lawmakers who veto the first and approve the second sell themselves as "moderate" and "reasonable" simply because they chose the (slightly) lesser oppression of women's rights.

And I note it still doesn't include several nations who have been proven to have had terrorist links (those ones where a certain man in power coincidentally has business ties)...

James D. Macdonald · Mar 7, 2017

If this ban flies, they'll add another six countries. Then another six. Then another....

cornflake · Mar 7, 2017

Remember Khizr Khan, the gold-star father who spoke at the Democratic National convention, asked Trump if Trump would like to borrow a copy of the Constitution and then got insulted by Trump a lot?

Khan was scheduled to speak at an event in Toronto, but had to cancel after being told his "travel privileges are being reviewed.' Khan is a U.S. citizen.

That seems totally legal! Or, you know, the exact opposite of that.

blacbird · Mar 7, 2017

cornflake said:
Remember Khizr Khan, the gold-star father who spoke at the Democratic National convention, asked Trump if Trump would like to borrow a copy of the Constitution and then got insulted by Trump a lot?

Khan was scheduled to speak at an event in Toronto, but had to cancel after being told his "travel privileges are being reviewed.' Khan is a U.S. citizen.

That seems totally legal! Or, you know, the exact opposite of that.

The only noun applicable to this situation is "outrage". Anybody with a valid U.S. passport should be able to travel freely between the U.S. and Canada. Period. Along with any other nations that accept U.S. passports. How in hell does this crap happen?

caw

tiggs · Mar 7, 2017

cornflake said:
Remember Khizr Khan, the gold-star father who spoke at the Democratic National convention, asked Trump if Trump would like to borrow a copy of the Constitution and then got insulted by Trump a lot?

Khan was scheduled to speak at an event in Toronto, but had to cancel after being told his "travel privileges are being reviewed.' Khan is a U.S. citizen.

That seems totally legal! Or, you know, the exact opposite of that.

Still waiting for clarification on exactly what's happened. Anyone know?

Sunflowerrei · Mar 7, 2017

The state of Hawaii is going to file a challenge over ban 2.0 tomorrow. It doesn't specify what their legal argument is yet.

frimble3 · Mar 7, 2017

Sunflowerrei said:
The state of Hawaii is going to file a challenge over ban 2.0 tomorrow. It doesn't specify what their legal argument is yet.

Don't know if it's a legal argument, but most people in Hawaii get there by air, which would leave them so much more at the mercy of airport checks. Even without crossing international boundaries.

Captcha · Mar 8, 2017

tiggs said:
Still waiting for clarification on exactly what's happened. Anyone know?

That snippet of an article was a frustrating example of passive voice being used to obscure facts. He "was told" this, but who told him?!? Canada, US, anonymous source... zombies?

I need more information, please!

ETA: The other sources I've read stop just short of calling bullshit on the whole story, but they point out the ways it doesn't make sense: international travel isn't a "privilege" for a US citizen; it's a right... the customs authorities don't contact people BEFORE they try to travel...

I don't know. This one feels kind of shaky.

tiggs · Mar 8, 2017

Captcha said:
I don't know. This one feels kind of shaky.

I agree -- which is why I want to see some confirmation, too.

About the only thing I can think of, to be honest, is that he's been added to the "No Fly" list.

Cmalone · Mar 8, 2017

tiggs said:
I agree -- which is why I want to see some confirmation, too.

About the only thing I can think of, to be honest, is that he's been added to the "No Fly" list.

The articles I've read about this are very strange. I wondered if he caught wind that he might be targeted for harassment coming back into the county and didn't want to risk it. He wouldn't be the first American citizen detained and harassed returning to his country, there was that incident with the NASA employee. But that's just a theory and I would rather more details.

autumnleaf · Mar 8, 2017

It feels like Muslim Ban 1.0 was a test run to see what would anger people the most. The aspects that got most media coverage were:
- Disrupting travelers currently in transit
- Disrupting families by banning people with relatives in the US
- Including Green Card holders in the order
- Including Iraqi allies, such as interpreters who'd risked their lives for US troops

Removing these "bugs" is an attempt to make it more palatable. It's the "door in the face" technique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique

CWatts · Mar 8, 2017

Cmalone said:
The articles I've read about this are very strange. I wondered if he caught wind that he might be targeted for harassment coming back into the county and didn't want to risk it. He wouldn't be the first American citizen detained and harassed returning to his country, there was that incident with the NASA employee. But that's just a theory and I would rather more details.

Muhammed Ali, Jr. got detained by these crazies. Apparently being the son of an American icon and a US citizen born in Philadelphia doesn't matter if you are Muslim.

I wonder if Khizr Khan has been denied a passport or its renewal. WaPo has an update on this story, which says it unclear if Khan has traveled abroad previously.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...vel-may-be-unraveling/?utm_term=.b7f605d1a0dc

I really hope this isn't a hoax. I fell for the Rolling Stone UVA rape story with the same burning outrage, but campus rape remains a huge issue and so does the the border repression.

Cmalone · Mar 8, 2017

CWatts said:
Muhammed Ali, Jr. got detained by these crazies. Apparently being the son of an American icon and a US citizen born in Philadelphia doesn't matter if you are Muslim.

I wonder if Khizr Khan has been denied a passport or its renewal. WaPo has an update on this story, which says it unclear if Khan has traveled abroad previously.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...vel-may-be-unraveling/?utm_term=.b7f605d1a0dc

Yes, you're right, I forgot about the Alis' border incidents when I made that post last night. DT already has a grudge against the Khans, so it seems plausible to me that someone might go out of their way to cause problems for them, whether refusing them the documents to leave, stranding them outside the country, or otherwise.

Celia Cyanide · Mar 9, 2017

There have been some "emergency protests" announced in response to this. I am going to this one next week in Minnesota:

https://www.facebook.com/events/141...lan_user_associated&notif_id=1489026487409080

cornflake · Mar 15, 2017

Stayed before it began. Nice going, Hawaii.

Oh, that pesky Constitution, getting in Trump's way.

A federal judge in Hawaii on Wednesday issued a sweeping freeze of President Trump’s new executive order hours before it would have temporarily barred the issuance of new visas to citizens of six Muslim-majority countries and suspended the admission of new refugees.

In a blistering 43-page opinion, U.S. District Judge Derrick K. Watson pointed to Trump’s own comments and those of his close advisers as evidence that his order was meant to discriminate against Muslims and declared there was a “strong likelihood of success” that those suing would prove the directive violated the Constitution.

Watson declared that “a reasonable, objective observer — enlightened by the specific historical context, contemporaneous public statements, and specific sequence of events leading to its issuance — would conclude that the Executive Order was issued with a purpose to disfavor a particular religion.”

Cmalone · Mar 16, 2017

cornflake said:
Stayed before it began. Nice going, Hawaii.

Oh, that pesky Constitution, getting in Trump's way.

Thanks for that, Judge Watson. Keep up the good work.

Alessandra Kelley · Jun 5, 2017

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/336346-trump-tweets-might-undercut-travel-ban-case

In a flurry of Tweets early this morning, the person in the White House has apparently undermined his lawyers' attempts to argue for the second version of the travel ban.

"President Trump could be undercutting his case by admitting that the order is a travel ban, by saying the revised order waters down the first order and by accusing the courts of taking away the people’s rights, whatever that means," said Carl Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond School of Law.

Ian Samuel, a Climenko Fellow and lecturer at Harvard Law School who clerked for the late Justice Antonin Scalia, said Trump is undercutting his chances of winning at the Supreme Court.

"The government's entire argument in this case is grounded in the need to respect the president's national security judgments because of the relative competencies of the various branches. That is, it's a version of 'you need to trust us on this one.' To behave this way in public squanders any chance that this argument can be taken seriously. It is an unforced error of unbelievable magnitude."

Josh Blackman, a constitutional law professor at the South Texas College of Law in Houston and a member of the conservative Federalist Society, called it confounding that Trump would blame the Justice Department for modifying the original travel ban when he himself signed it.

"He is the President of the United States. Lawyers in the Justice Department, as well as the White House Counsel, work for him," he said in an email to The Hill.

"The buck stops at the Oval Office. He can't blame his attorneys for implementing a policy he signed."

Still, Blackman said Trump's tweets will have little if any impact on the current litigation. He said they are "far more revealing about the President's lack of knowledge, both about how is own administration works, and of the contents of his signature policy."

SWest · Jun 5, 2017

Justice has their work cut out for them if they want to do more than just stand at the podium and blink.

Since SCOTUS recently reversed North Carolina's blatantly racist redistricting, there's reason to hope they'll hit this hard.

cbenoi1 · Jun 12, 2017

Results are in: http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/politics/9th-circuit-travel-ban/index.html

What bugs me is not solely the travel ban, but that it is a requisite to an administrative review of the vetting process for those countries listed in the ban. In other words, shutting down travel at the point of entry of specific countries is needed in order for Washington-based feds to make boardroom presentations, as if there was a dependency between those two tasks. Sorry, but that's a Project Management 101 fail.

-cb

BenPanced · Jun 12, 2017

Countdown filing new appeal of the appeal in 3...2...

Muslim Ban 2.0

Cmalone

cbenoi1

blacbird

tiggs

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Brightdreamer

Just Another Lazy Perfectionist

James D. Macdonald

Your Genial Uncle

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

blacbird

tiggs

Sunflowerrei

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Captcha

tiggs

Cmalone

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW

CWatts

down the rabbit hole of research...

Cmalone

Celia Cyanide

Joker Groupie

cornflake

practical experience, FTW

Cmalone

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

SWest

In the garden...

cbenoi1

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)