Will Barnes & Noble still be here in 10 years time?

Laer Carroll said:

Nowadays books are stored in standard digital formats based on XML, an international standard, rather than on metal slugs. Turning out new editions, in new formats (hardback, trade paperback, and mass-market paperback - and ebooks), is almost a matter of clicking a button to choose which one.

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This is the way many self-publishers and bulk printers catering to self-publishers function.

It is not the way it's done by large trade or scholarly publishers.

XML is used only for ebooks. It doesn't include the data needed to print books. There's no data for kerning, expert numbers, etc.

Publishers typically store three file formats for printed books for each edition or page format:

• Native file format for the typesetting and layout software (typically InDesign or Quark Express, these days)
• Postscript (this is what printers, that is the hardware that actually produces pages, require)
• .PDF for long term archive and emergency recovery

I still go to my local Barnes and Noble pretty often. The number of books I buy is limited more by my budget and the fact that I'm running out of space than anything else (I'm trying to read more ebooks for the convenience factor, but I really like physical books).

These days, I mostly buy magazines from B&N, But usually browse and occasionally get books, too.

I've noticed a decrease in stock at one of the locations I go to, which is disappointing.

I like indie bookshops and try to support them when possible. But I like the convenience of larger bookstores, too. There was a stretch of time as a kid where I lived in a small town that didn't have a lot of retail. I loved the indie bookstore we had, and the owner was great about ordering stuff, but when we moved to a city that had a Barnes and Noble, it was heaven. These days, I love supporting smaller shops when possible, but there are times when I prefer browsing in a larger store or the comparative anonymity of a large store or buying online.

Sheryl Nantus said:

Let's not forget that a LOT of books just can't be virtual.

Coloring books, children's books... a lot of them can't be bought without someone actually touching the covers and looking at a printed copy.

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I collect fantasy and SF art books - Jacek Yerka, Wayne Barlowe, and so on. Try looking at a Yerka painting on an iphone screen.

And that reminds me, some years ago (search feature is useless here), there was a thread where someone claimed readers of physical books would "die and go extinct" as ebooks encompassed all literature. IIRC, two of the complaints about hard copies were that they gathered dust and it was difficult to find your place in them if you closed the book.

I prefer print editions, too -- except when I travel. I'm one of those who always brought along lots of books to read, even if it meant bringing an additional suitcase. It's so handy to have 100 books at my fingertips and only have to use up the space that a single paperback would have taken up. So, for my favorite books, I have both print and ebook versions.

That being said, I'm not sure the issue with B&N is print vs. ebooks. I think that B&N has a long, long way to go to compete with Amazon. I don't particularly like Amazon, but I keep ordering from them because the selection is so much broader, and because they make the process so darned easy.

People have been predicting the death of Barnes & Noble for years, but it's still here, kicking and fighting and struggling. I don't think we'll see a dramatic Borders-style death, but I figure they'll keep shrinking and shedding stores as the years roll by. Which is fine, because Indie bookstores can and will step into the gap. Not to mention Half-Price books, which is doing pretty well and has been pretty stable as far as I can tell.

The market for print books isn't going anywhere. Ebook sales go up and down, but I doubt they'll go anywhere, either. Plenty of room for both formats.

AW Admin said:

XML is used only for ebooks. It doesn't include the data needed to print books. There's no data for kerning, expert numbers, etc.

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Not quite true. The use of XML and other software standards is a field of ongoing research. The typical product produces something that an expert typesetter takes and then modifies, saving the mods into the data file. Computer and typesetter working together produce a product synergistically better than either alone.

Typesetters are never going to be put out of work. This is especially true for complex documents which include images, tables, mathematics and musical notation, and such. It requires the esthetic sense and the judgement which comes of long experience to solve such problems as to where best to put an image or table to make it easier for readers to understand it. Ultimately a typesetter is not only a technician but also an artist.

Some large trade publishers do use such products. Penguin Random House is one, as is Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, and McGraw-Hill. Hachette is another; Hachette's experience is described in the following article.

https://www.xml.com/articles/2017/02/20/beyond-xml-making-books-html/

University presses are especially keen to use such products, especially those which are edging into producing popular commercial books. They are being forced to do that because their budgets are typically very modest.

Parenthetically, InDesign and PDF are (in software years) archaic. Still widely used, but eventually to be overtaken by newer products. Or, more likely in the short term, to be upgraded. There is a limit to upgrades however, as every software engineer knows. Eventually the add-ons produces inefficient computer processing and user experiences.

Old Hack, here is a link to a report on the US market (What the Big 5's Financial Reports Reveal) which includes a couple of details that support your belief that ebook sales dropped in the last year. So the phenomena isn't just a UK one. Another report is from Publishers Weekly, which says that all publishing dropped last year.

http://www.bookbusinessmag.com/post/big-5-financial-reports-reveal-state-traditional-book-publishing/
lhttp://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/...rough-six-months-for-big-book-publishers.html

Incidentally, this web site (Book Business Mag) seems to be a better microscope into the publishing industry than Publishers Weekly. PW reports based on publisher press releases, while BBM digs into financial reports. (Although those may not be all that reliable either.)

http://www.bookbusinessmag.com/about-us/

I mentioned in a previous post that printing was a high-tech industry, though many people don't think of it that way. I probably also thought print technology low tech before I began reading about it. Coming from the cutting-edge aerospace world I thought THAT was high-tech, it being so futuristic. So I was surprised and impressed with what I found when I did begin reading about print tech.

Basically, I learned, there are two processes, one that uses indirect and the other using direct means to put ink on paper - and cloth, plastic, wood, etc.

The oldest is indirect, beginning in China with woodcuts. Someone carved a figure on a block of wood, put ink on it, then pressed the block against paper. Centuries of progress ensued, with the latest version of indirect printing the offset press. Direct printing today is best known in inkjet and dry powder desktop printers. For some reason in the print industry this is called "digital" printing.

The two technologies have progressed in opposite directions. Offset printers are continually getting smaller, cheaper, and more versatile, able to create ever smaller and more profitable print runs of books, magazines, and so on. "Digital" printers are getting bigger, able to produce higher-quality images, and larger and cheaper-by-the-page print runs. The king of that kind of printing is HP. Their largest printers are the size of a van and can turn out many thousands of copies of an order at high rates of speed. Print-on-demand products have become big time.

Along with the core printing hardware has come many kinds of helper hardware, which cut, bind, transport, and shelve printed products. Also helper software, including several kinds of software standards and designing and typesetting software making it easier to produce books, magazines, newspapers, and such. And to "repurpose" the content, say to go from an all-text book made into a movie to one that contains the original text + images from the movie.

Bottom line: printed books are not an endangered breed, at least not any decade soon.

Laer Carroll said:

Basically, I learned, there are two processes, one that uses indirect and the other using direct means to put ink on paper - and cloth, plastic, wood, etc.

The oldest is indirect, beginning in China with woodcuts. Someone carved a figure on a block of wood, put ink on it, then pressed the block against paper. Centuries of progress ensued, with the latest version of indirect printing the offset press. Direct printing today is best known in inkjet and dry powder desktop printers. For some reason in the print industry this is called "digital" printing.

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Offset printing has both direct and indirect versions: direct offset is when the template is inked, then the ink is transferred directly to paper from that template. Indirect is when the template is inked, the ink is then transferred to the printing plate, and the paper is printed from that plate.

The two technologies have progressed in opposite directions. Offset printers are continually getting smaller, cheaper, and more versatile, able to create ever smaller and more profitable print runs of books, magazines, and so on. "Digital" printers are getting bigger, able to produce higher-quality images, and larger and cheaper-by-the-page print runs.

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I'd say that the two technologies are actually progressing towards one another, and might eventually meet in the middle as far as costs per unit are concerned. Quality is another issue, though, and I can't see books from digital printers competing with offset books on quality as well as price any time soon.

I worked at my local B&N when it opened in the late '90s. It had huge crowds back then, not to mention one of just two or three escalators in the entire state, which was an attraction unto itself. Back then, too, it had an impressive selection. It's still there, still a great place to browse, but the quotient of toys and gadgets has increased.

In the past few years, one of our indie bookstores has thrived and expanded into a local chain (buying out smaller stores whose owners wanted to retire), while a couple other stores are going strong. I have a membership at one store that gives me discounts on everything. Besides feeling VERY grateful to the indie booksellers who have supported my own book, I just feel like a town without a bookstore is a sad, sad thing. When I was a teen, my dad and I would have brunch downtown every weekend and then browse our favorite bookstore for hours -- it was a bonding thing. I have so many memories attached to specific bookstores. I remember when I first discovered that I could order any book in print through a store (this was pre-Amazon) and how exciting that was.

One B&N store in town already closed and the one left has overhead lights out that makes it look like they are closing. So I spent $10 there today. I don't want them to close. We don't have a good indie book store in town that makes me want to lose the B&N box.

I don't know about B&N as I'm in the UK but here we have Waterstones, which is much the same thing and seems to be in much the same position, despite a recent (small) upswing in profits. I vastly prefer buying from a bookshop, and only order from Amazon if I really have to.

Also, I've never bought an ebook in my life and have no plans to start.

MaeZe said:

One B&N store in town already closed and the one left has overhead lights out that makes it look like they are closing. So I spent $10 there today. I don't want them to close. We don't have a good indie book store in town that makes me want to lose the B&N box.

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I wonder if that's a new policy. When I went to my local one recently, the lights seemed strangely dim.

I collect fantasy and SF art books - Jacek Yerka, Wayne Barlowe, and so on. Try looking at a Yerka painting on an iphone screen.

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Me too! It's my Achilles' heel, finance-wise.

DancingMaenid said:

I wonder if that's a new policy. When I went to my local one recently, the lights seemed strangely dim.

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I asked a floor sales assistant and he said it was burnt out bulbs in the ceiling fixtures that had not been replaced. Nothing purposeful.

Old Hack said:

I can't see books from digital printers competing with offset books on quality as well as price any time soon.

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They already do, and have for several years, at least for paperbacks. Pocket Books, Bantam, similar-sized book publishers all use digital printers. Which is a general term that covers several different technologies. Hachette, for instance, uses toner-based digital printers for smaller (a few thousand) print runs, inkjet for larger ones. For even larger runs they use offset. As for quality, digital printers now compete with offset. They typically run from 600 to 2400 dots per inch resolution.

"Printer" is a dual-purpose word, for machines and for companies that use those machines. Few of the book publishers own either. They subcontract production to companies that do nothing but print books - and magazines, brochures, pamphlets, and so on all the way down to calling cards. Harper Collins as of this year, for instance, subcontracts all of its books to a Chinese company.

Digital printing is increasingly used by textbook manufacturers to customize textbooks for universities, especially for scientific and technical subjects where a chapter or three may become obsolete in the space of a few years. The smaller print runs of a few thousand books makes digital printing a more cost-effective choice for some textbooks. For textbooks which obsolesce much slower, offset is still the main choice.

The hardware of book publishing gets more attention than software, because printing machines and their output are visible. But software is where many of the advances are made. InDesign and similar design and typesetting programs are continually being updated by their companies, and just as importantly by third parties via plugins.

Even more crucial to the bottom line is software for "work flow." A printing company may have a dozen different books and magazines (and brochures, etc.) in production on any one day. Printing machines (offset or digital) are hungry beasts, consuming huge wide rolls of paper that have to be handled by forklifts and the like. On each roll coming out of the machine will be several books, magazines, and such. They are then chopped into pages, assembled into books, magazines, etc. They then are bound in one of several ways. And not a single human touches any of the final product - except to pull out individual copies before mailing to check quality.

Printed books are becoming ever cheaper to make. This makes it easier for small bookstores to sell them and compete with B&N, Waterstones, and the like. And some of them are not at all small. One I frequent has been around for decades and now occupies two stories of a large building. Of course, its success is not just because of efficiency. It is also because it is right in the middle of one of the busiest parts of the city, with two theaters and all kinds of restaurants and boutique shops within a block or three.

B&N pisses me off with their Meet and Greet events. At one point or another, I bought a book either online, another book store, or have gotten as a gift from a friend. Then the author of said book comes to B&N for a signing and Q&A. Well guess what, I'm not allowed to go unless I bought the book through B&N. They pretty much force me to either buy the book again (which is more expensive in store than on the B&N website) or not go see my favorite author. It's no fun to plan out when I buy a book and from where, or not buy it ASAP, knowing the author is going to come in three months. I can pre-order it, but then I just have to hope my library has a copy. It's lame. That's my bottom line for that.

I'm curious though, if the majority of sales in online now, how is that possible when it's 100000% times easier to share a PDF of a book than it is a movie. My friend once showed off her "super advanced" copy of Amberlough, a very, very, very, indie fantasy novel and I was like WTF how did you get that? Turns out Amazon accidentally posed the whole manuscript under their preview link. I checked it out and they totally did. They're supposed to show you like the first ten chapters or first 100 pages (lol, I still thinks that's too much?), but someone must have messed up and uploaded the whole thing. My friend decided to print it out and who could blame her I guess.

How would an Amazon store even work?

My favorite thing to do on the weekends though is hit up this amazing old ass bookstore in Burbank, CA. It has a huge wall of 1$ books, and sometimes you can find the latest release. It's always being updated and moved around and that's half the thrill when I go.

B&N will hang around...I think...

I think folks always worry that one day physical books will go out of style. But everything I see from readers suggests otherwise. I'd wager that a good majority of folks (among Americans, anyway) actually prefer physical books, which means there's always a place for brick and mortar stores like B&N. Even Amazon can't compete with what those brick and mortar stores offer: the ability to feel and grasp a book before you buy it.

Berneta L. Haynes
Official Site | Waking Writer | Landrien Moriset

Laer Carroll said:

They already do, and have for several years, at least for paperbacks. Pocket Books, Bantam, similar-sized book publishers all use digital printers.

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I know that trade publishers use digital printers, Laer. I also know the prices some of them pay for the books they print in this way, and I know the quality of the books which result. My opinion still stands.

(What you might not be aware of is that most of the digital print bought by good trade publishers is used to produce ARCs, or books which would otherwise be OOP. The books produced this way aren't usually intended for bookshop stock, and the quality is decidedly different to that of offset books.)

As for the rest of your post well, yes. I've bought print, I've visited printers and watched "my" books come off the presses. I know what printing involves. I appreciate the primer and see how people might find it useful: but I'm not sure that this thread is the place for it.

ColdWintersNight said:

I'm curious though, if the majority of sales in online now, how is that possible when it's 100000% times easier to share a PDF of a book than it is a movie. My friend once showed off her "super advanced" copy of Amberlough, a very, very, very, indie fantasy novel and I was like WTF how did you get that? Turns out Amazon accidentally posed the whole manuscript under their preview link. I checked it out and they totally did. They're supposed to show you like the first ten chapters or first 100 pages (lol, I still thinks that's too much?), but someone must have messed up and uploaded the whole thing. My friend decided to print it out and who could blame her I guess.

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I could blame her. That's stealing. She might not realise it, but it's still stealing.

Mod Note: Let's do try to stay on topic, folks—that topic being the future of B&N, or even of big chain booksellers. Continue the original discussion or, if we've exhausted our thoughts on that, let 'er die until new information on the original topic comes out.

When someone clicks on a title of interest they expect the discussion to be about that, ye ken? Otherwise, it's just false advertising.

ColdWintersNight said:

My favorite thing to do on the weekends though is hit up this amazing old ass bookstore in Burbank, CA.

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I may even have been there since I live in the edge of the San Fernando Valley! I agree, great place.

I mentioned an indie bookstore in my earlier "primer" on publishing. It's called Vroman's, and there are actually two. I go to the nearest, the parent store. Two stories, quarter of a city block, lots of free parking behind it. Has all the latest of everything, including magazines and comics, and most of the top floor is for children's and young adult books with a reading nook for kids.

One of the great features is that the reading area can be converted to a conference room, albeit small and open to the rest of the area - which I feel charming. They have guest speakers there and in the next two months writing workshops on Saturday morning. Other kinds of literary-related events are also held, such as author readings and reading discussion clubs. And they sponsor such events too big to hold there in nearby churches, schools, and the like.

They rent textbooks, which is fairly big business, as their city Pasadena has plenty of secondary schools. Also CalTech, a research university which rivals MIT, Stanford, and the like for absolute cutting edge research. There is also Pasadena City College. Both have their own bookstores, of course, but Vroman's does some business with students from them as well.

They also sell books online, a small-scale but lucrative rival to Amazon and B&N and the like.

Founded in 1894, here is its web site: http://www.vromansbookstore.com/. Maybe you also know The Iliad Bookshop, one of my favorite used book stores in the area? It's big, has good free parking, air conditioning, and a comfortable reading area. Like Vroman's, you can also buy books online!

If B&N goes away I'll regret it, because mine is in easy walking distance, has great parking, and lots of nearby stores where I shop and eat. But with indie and used-book stories such as the two I mentioned I'll still have places to go and physically look and hold books, which is still for me and most people the best way to buy a book.

http://www.iliadbooks.com/

Here is also a virtual walkthrough of Iliad. Notice as you travel through it the reading area. I've spent many an hour there.

http://www.google.com/maps/@34.1688...lsmgssUMDCmgkeuqmmB92g!2e0!3e2!7i13312!8i6656

There's a part of me that yearns to start a bookstore here. Our last mainstream store of any kind (Hastings Entertainment, like a Media Play) closed late last year. There's a Christian bookstore in the mall, and a tiny used bookstore over on Main, but they keep really odd hours. I've got all sorts of ideas based on indie stores I've visited over the years.

But then reality sets in. I'm an idea guy, not a numbers or business guy. Not sure I've got the wherewithal to actually run a retail business. The town is big enough - 35k people - but I don't think I'm the right person.

I was nicely surprised when I visited the B&N that is about twenty minutes from my house. It was the middle of the day in the middle of the week.
It was crowded. But not with just "cover perusers" but people were buying books.

I think the brick-and-mortar B&N will still be here in ten years. People will still have the need to see and touch and peruse before buying. As long as B&N has a varied and extensive assortment of books and puzzles and "gift sets", and has discounted items, the brick & mortar store will survive.

As for B&N online--I usually go to Amazon now if I'm buying books online. I belong to Amazon Prime so I get two-day free shipping.

My local B&N (and others in my large city) do author readings/signings, which do seem to draw people, when they're big names, but the store (the one close to me) is very empty of people whenever I've been in it lately, and the floor space devoted to toys and shit is ridiculous. It's not even curated stuff, just a huge swath of the floor with massive shelving of puzzles, Lego kits, etc.

The local indie (like two blocks from the B&N), however, I don't think I've ever seen without a good crowd. They also do author readings/signings, and have some toys/stuff, but the stuff is much more obviously curated (fancy notebooks, not mass-markety ones, handmade tea stuff, handknit fingerpuppets, carved pencils, little desk things, lots of bags from small manuf., that sort of thing) and they have creative stuff to draw and keep people.

There's a table of Blind Date Books -- books wrapped in brown paper, with labels saying 'if you liked these four or so books, read me.' The sign promises a replacement book if your date goes badly, the table has tea and chocolate bars. It's very cute and there's an interesting selection that changes pretty often.

They have a book subscription service, where you can sign up for book of the month, week, quarter, whatever, in all sorts of categories, with your preferences, and they'll mail you a new whatever, non-fic, scifi, YA, every whatever. The books are supposed to be new but sort of unexpected, not just big-name bestsellers. They're all about curating and being booklovers who know their stock and stuff.

Stuff like that I realize can be harder for a big chain to do, but I think it's invaluable to an indie and builds a loyal customer base. They sell at cover price (they have a loyalty card thing), but offer that sort of stuff to draw people off Amazon. Barnes & .... just doesn't do anything, at least here, to convince people to use them as anything but an Amazon display case. That's what I use B&N for. I sometimes browse there, take a pic, order from Amazon, have it in a day or so. If I'm browsing in the indie, I'm less likely to do that; I want to support them, and I want to like, try a mystery book.

My local B&N closed last year, along with the others in my borough, so whenever I happen to be in the city, I drop by a B&N when I can and buy a hard copy book. Or I'll pop into The Strand if I'm around that neighborhood. But yes--B&N is definitely closing several branches.