How would you make men relevant in a setting where magic is gender specific to women?

horrorchix89 said:

Men are very relevant...unless babies just magically appear.

What can magic NOT do? And there's your answer. If you want to turn it into a full blown she-woman man-hating club then you can make the men be slaves. Although it might turn some people off. It's your story, though

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With our current science, it's not at all unimaginable that men would not be required participants, in any fashion, to produce children pretty soon -- and even if people still wanted to use sperm, don't need that many men, or to keep them around.

Yeah. We can just get rid of all men. Or use them as slaves. That'll work

As Kuwi pointed out in the related thread, some girls have sperm. If you want all girls you could do that.

Reversals are often a keen way to highlight social justice issues. That's one reason why there is such pushback against females as equals or as dominant in fiction because it highlights the inequalities within the patriarchy.

I actually remember reading an article just the other day that scientists have been able to form some sort of test tube mouse embryo or something which gives credence to the idea that the usefulness of males for perpetuation of the species may have a limited future, so it's not that far-fetched an idea. If I can find it, I'll come back and ETA (edit to add)...

Going back to the OP, and others who have chimed in, I agree with the following:

Myrealana said:

Whether magic is specific to gender or not, it has to have limitations and rules. If magic can do anything any time, then where's the challenge?

But aside from that -- ask yourself in a society where men hold all the power, what role is there for women? Then reverse it.

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Magic always has limits...

lilyWhite said:

Ask yourself this:

If only some people are capable of magic, how do people who can't use magic remain useful?

There's really no difference in the question, and a lot of fantasy fiction portrays non-magicians as being capable in their own ways even if they don't use magic.

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cmhbob said:

Thinking back to my D&D days, magic-users were practically defenseless while actually casting a spell. Some more powerful spells took fifteen or twenty minutes to cast. If they were interrupted while casting, or their motions were wrong, the spell failed, and was lost from their spellbook. That meant they needed protection while casting.

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Roxxsmom said:

Well, think about it in terms of other stories about worlds where some people can do magic and some can't: how do non-magicians of any gender remain relevant in such settings?
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Not that it wouldn't be refreshing to read a story where men are the downtrodden and largely irrelevant, overlooked gender for a change.

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Kjbartolotta said:

Actually curious, why can women do magic and men can't? I tend to dislike magic systems that gate off certain people, but you can potentially do interesting things with this.

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You could have some form of blood magic that can be easily exploited by anyone who menstruates, while those who don't menstruate have to cut themselves or someone else, both of which could lead to social ostracism. It would tend to make women in the appropriate age bracket the default magic-users in society, even if it didn't stop everyone else.

jjdebenedictis said:

You could have some form of blood magic that can be easily exploited by anyone who menstruates, while those who don't menstruate have to cut themselves or someone else, both of which could lead to social ostracism. It would tend to make women in the appropriate age bracket the default magic-users in society, even if it didn't stop everyone else.

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That's a nice twist. Could generate some sub-plots from there if you consider that women at either end of the menstrual spectrum have more or less power. I considered too the idea that virgins might be more powerful, but that sounded a little too sexist/patriarchal once I wrote it down. Maybe flip the idea, and sexually active women gain strength?

cmhbob said:

That's a nice twist. Could generate some sub-plots from there if you consider that women at either end of the menstrual spectrum have more or less power. I considered too the idea that virgins might be more powerful, but that sounded a little too sexist/patriarchal once I wrote it down. Maybe flip the idea, and sexually active women gain strength?

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That sounds amazing. I actually don't tend to like extremely sexual stories, but I care about shattering stereotypes more than I care about discretion.

kuwisdelu said:

Sure, one could write a story in which women demonstrate great skill, accomplishment, and brilliance in wondrous, enchanting disciplines that are — by Clarke's Third Law — basically magic, but somehow men seem weirdly and hopelessly indifferent and immune to their talent and intellect, but how is that any different from realistic contemporary fiction?

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What can I say? You saw through my allegory...

Chronic said:

Lack of power doesn't have to equate to uselessness. There are many examples of seemingly powerless characters who more than make up for their lack of power by courage/heart/commitment. The Hobbits in LoTR being the classic example.

In a way, the powerless characters can be more interesting, since they're more susceptible to risks and more dependent on whatever other useful qualities they possess.

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I find our limits are what make us interesting. How we adapt to overcome our limits defines us.

This premise reminds me of Conjure Wife, by Fritz Leiber.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/722251.Conjure_Wife?from_search=true

sharad9 said:

If only women are capable of using magic, how do men remain useful?

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If men in your world have never been able to use magic, were they ever useful? Go back to the beginning of this gender divide and recreate a culture where men have never had to do anything. What does this do to the gender stereotypes?

Another question to ask might be: how do men become useful?

Curious- since you are exploring the reversal of patriarchy- is your protagonist male or female?

Adding unlimited magic to a story just makes it boring. ie - there's a problem - "poof" - problem solved - the end. Who wants to read that?

So if you want to make them relevant to the story, perhaps consider what men have or can do that women (magical or not) cannot? Apart from dealing with spiders, producing sperm/semen comes to mind. Perhaps magic could be fueled by it? that would give men some role in society - except that perhaps some unscrupulous witches (!) might want to enslave them or corner the market in virile men. And then perhaps a hermaphrodite gets born and causes a whole load of trouble!

Keithy said:

So if you want to make them relevant to the story, perhaps consider what men have or can do that women (magical or not) cannot? Apart from dealing with spiders, producing sperm/semen comes to mind. Perhaps magic could be fueled by it? that would give men some role in society - except that perhaps some unscrupulous witches (!) might want to enslave them or corner the market in virile men. And then perhaps a hermaphrodite gets born and causes a whole load of trouble!

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Considering that trans (0.3-0.6%) and intersex (1.7%) people constitute at least 2% of the general population (and probably quite a lot more considering the estimate for proportion of trans people nearly doubles each time we get a new number), that kind of trouble would not be particularly rare or unique.

The world is filled with magical women capable of producing sperm and killing spiders.

Kuwi, killer of spiders

kuwisdelu said:

Considering that trans (0.3-0.6%) and intersex (1.7%) people constitute at least 2% of the general population (and probably quite a lot more considering the estimate for proportion of trans people nearly doubles each time we get a new number), that kind of trouble would not be particularly rare or unique.

The world is filled with magical women capable of producing sperm and killing spiders.

Kuwi, killer of spiders

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^THIS.

Also, Keithy, I'm not sure that trans or intersex folks are really "trouble" - unless you mean in the sense that they challenge folks who are committed to a gender binary with no fluidity.

Aggy B. said:

^THIS.

Also, Keithy, I'm not sure that trans or intersex folks are really "trouble" - unless you mean in the sense that they challenge folks who are committed to a gender binary with no fluidity.

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I was thinking the hermaphrodite would be able to produce his/her own sperm to power their own magic.

Keithy said:

I was thinking the hermaphrodite would be able to produce his/her own sperm to power their own magic.

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So, hermaphrodite is considering a hurtful term when you're referring to humans. The correct term is intersex. And, while intersex folks can be a number of different genders, what you're suggesting is someone who is "they" not "his/her".

maybe it would be like non-benders in the avatar: the last airbender/the legend of korra universe. benders look down on them (the divide gets bigger in tlok) but they actually are useful in a lot of ways. they can fight, build, govern. people just assume they're lesser

Jade A said:

maybe it would be like non-benders in the avatar: the last airbender/the legend of korra universe. benders look down on them (the divide gets bigger in tlok) but they actually are useful in a lot of ways. they can fight, build, govern. people just assume they're lesser

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Sokka was amazing

Fun fact: the newest Villain Antagonist that I've started working on – and one of my Top 5 favorites on the very long list thereof – is a Muggle who doesn't even know that magic exists

An idea that comes to mind is what if men were the "power source"of the magic the women commanded? On one hand it sounds a bit sexist as it make the men appear to be the powerful ones but what I'm suggesting is that men are the raw power (energy) sources that women magic-users tap into. The idea sounds interesting but it is your world; build it as you like it. Best of luck.

realityfix said:

An idea that comes to mind is what if men were the "power source"of the magic the women commanded? On one hand it sounds a bit sexist as it make the men appear to be the powerful ones but what I'm suggesting is that men are the raw power (energy) sources that women magic-users tap into. The idea sounds interesting but it is your world; build it as you like it. Best of luck.

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Humans didn't like it so much when they were the power source for the Matrix, so maybe it's not such a great position to be in.

It would be interesting to read a speculative fiction story about a matriarchal society where men make themselves relevant by being responsible for most of the emotional labor.

Anyone remember Fritz Leiber's "Conjure Wife"?