What do you think of multiple first person POV? How many would you limit it to?

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

I'm currently switching my YA contemporary MS from third to first person, both because my sample in SYW had better feedback when switched to first, and because the vast majority of YA contemp is written in first. But my MS has multiple viewpoint characters (three currently) and I'm not sure how to handle it.

I was wondering how people feel about multiple first person novels. I did pick up a sampling of YA books at the bookstore and was surprised that there were several multiple first person stories. All that I saw were two POVs. I'm heavily leaning toward eliminating one of my three and having just the two.

My questions:

Are you cool with multiple first person novels?
Even if you don't like them in general, do you think they're fine for Contemporary YA, where first person dominates?
Is it better to go with multiple first over a combination of first and third (I've seen very rarely)?
Should I definitely aim to reduce from the three POV characters to the two when going first?

THANK YOU!!

Marlys · Feb 20, 2017

I've read several, and to pull it off the voices need to be absolutely distinct. Even in books where the author puts the POV character's name at the beginning of each chapter, I usually find myself flipping back to remind myself who's head I'm meant to be in.

It can also work if you do huge chunks of the book in one POV at a time, instead of switching every chapter or two. That gives the reader a chance to settle in more.

If you think multiple first is the very best way to tell your story, I agree that two is better than three. Pick the two most different characters, and really work on giving them easily identifiable voices.

MaeZe · Feb 20, 2017

Poisonwood Bible is one of my favorite books and it has multiple first person POVs. The story is told by the daughters' and mother's experiences. You need to consider what your reasoning is and be sure you clearly delineate between which head you are in.

The Young Elites does it in a different way while staying in first person only in the main character's head. When the chapters are about things happening outside of the main character's view, the author switches to third person but tells the story as if it were about the one person named in the chapter. That way the parts of the story the main character does not know about can still be told.

Best way to do that is new head, new chapter. Don't use it just to have an omniscient POV. Your characters need to have a different story to tell.

In my book the story is told as a first person's POV. But closer to the end I change to a different character as he and the main character's boyfriend head out of the village to retrieve an item from a cave while the MC stays behind. It's important because the two have conflict that needs to be resolved and which cannot be resolved in the presence of the MC.

I'm also using it to reveal important inner conflict the character has that he reveals to the boyfriend but never reveals to the main character.

The other reason is this character plays a transition role connecting the second book. Both books are standalone, but parallels in two societies run through both books. The second book is first person, a new character that interacts with the transition character. We briefly meet her in book one but don't learn anything about her until book two.

The important thing, in my opinion, is one chapter, one POV. I know some authors do it differently but for a newer writer especially, it's too easy to get the thing in a muddle if you are switching heads willy nilly. If you are in Mary's head in chapter one, it's OK not to be in John's head in that chapter. Likewise when the chapter is John's POV, you can't be in Mary's head in that chapter.

cmi0616 · Feb 20, 2017

Trouble by Non Pratt is another title you'll want to add to the reading list--it's a Contemporary YA novel that alternates between two first-person narrators, and it's well done.

Usually I don't mind multiple POV characters, whether in first or third person. The only thing that bugs me is when characters who don't figure majorly in the plot get a lot of unwarranted attention. I've seen entire chapters devoted to characters who seem entirely superfluous--this is frustrating. In other words, there's got to be a pressing narrative purpose for each POV character you introduce.

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

Marlys said:
I've read several, and to pull it off the voices need to be absolutely distinct. Even in books where the author puts the POV character's name at the beginning of each chapter, I usually find myself flipping back to remind myself who's head I'm meant to be in.

It can also work if you do huge chunks of the book in one POV at a time, instead of switching every chapter or two. That gives the reader a chance to settle in more.

If you think multiple first is the very best way to tell your story, I agree that two is better than three. Pick the two most different characters, and really work on giving them easily identifiable voices.

Thanks, Marlys. Yeah, I can see where the distinction in voices would be even more important with first person. Sounds like most of the books you read didn't accomplish that if you were having to check back to the name at the beginning. I'll definitely work on making them identifiable. I really need the second POV to tell the story, so I guess I need to make it work.

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

MaeZe said:
Poisonwood Bible is one of my favorite books and it has multiple first person POVs. The story is told by the daughters' and mother's experiences. You need to consider what your reasoning is and be sure you clearly delineate between which head you are in.

The Young Elites does it in a different way while staying in first person only in the main character's head. When the chapters are about things happening outside of the main character's view, the author switches to third person but tells the story as if it were about the one person named in the chapter. That way the parts of the story the main character does not know about can still be told.

Best way to do that is new head, new chapter. Don't use it just to have an omniscient POV. Your characters need to have a different story to tell.

In my book the story is told as a first person's POV. But closer to the end I change to a different character as he and the main character's boyfriend head out of the village to retrieve an item from a cave while the MC stays behind. It's important because the two have conflict that needs to be resolved and which cannot be resolved in the presence of the MC.

I'm also using it to reveal important inner conflict the character has that he reveals to the boyfriend but never reveals to the main character.

The other reason is this character plays a transition role connecting the second book. Both books are standalone, but parallels in two societies run through both books. The second book is first person, a new character that interacts with the transition character. We briefly meet her in book one but don't learn anything about her until book two.

The important thing, in my opinion, is one chapter, one POV. I know some authors do it differently but for a newer writer especially, it's too easy to get the thing in a muddle if you are switching heads willy nilly. If you are in Mary's head in chapter one, it's OK not to be in John's head in that chapter. Likewise when the chapter is John's POV, you can't be in Mary's head in that chapter.

Thank you, MaeZe. I'll have to check out those books and I appreciate the example from your work.

I am worried about the chapter thing, because in third I switched POV at scene breaks and not just at chapters. So far I've worked on the first three chapters, which is about 50 pages, and already run into a problem. Right now it goes:

Chapter One
Scene One - Gabe
Scene Two - Gabe
Scene Three - Gabe

Chapter Two
Scene One - Gabe
Scene Two - Gabe
Scene Three - Gabe

Chapter Three
Scene One - Claire Noel
Scene Two - Claire Noel
Scene Three - Gabe
Scene Four - Claire Noel

The thing is that scene three has to be Gabe and scene four was where I felt like the chapter ended. I don't think it's a very good ending place after scene two, and I don't really like the idea of scene three being a chapter all on its own (It will be shorter and less involved than the previous chapters that way). I noticed one or two of the multiple first novels I looked at did away with chapters altogether and just had the name of the POV character at the top each time it switched (I guess it was kind of like having a new chapter with every scene break but not labeling it a chapter). Not sure about that.

Roxxsmom · Feb 20, 2017

There's no set number. I can think of some fantasy novels that have several first-person povs (Jones and Bennet's Havemercy and Sarah Monette's Melusine are examples), but imo you need to be good at keeping the voices distinct from one another, and they should all have their own arc, stakes, and take on things, yet each should also have an important role in moving the story along.

Outside of genre fiction, Kingsolver's The Poisonwood Bible is a very good book told from different povs in first person (three, at least).

MaeZe · Feb 20, 2017

Could your scene breaks be chapter breaks instead? Or changing POVs less often is another option. Evaluate why you need character X's POV? Can you skip character X's POV in some scenes and vice versa with character Y's POV?

Take a look at how it's done in The Young Elites. The author mixes first and third, not multiple first person POVs. But you can see how when you are in one head, the other POV can be in third person some of the time. You might have to step back from the story to see how you can make it work. The reader doesn't always need to know what the author knows.

MaeZe · Feb 20, 2017

CJSimone said:
...

Chapter One
Scene One - Gabe
Scene Two - Gabe
Scene Three - Gabe

Chapter Two
Scene One - Gabe
Scene Two - Gabe
Scene Three - Gabe

Chapter Three
Scene One - Claire Noel
Scene Two - Claire Noel
Scene Three - Gabe
Scene Four - Claire Noel

The thing is that scene three has to be Gabe and scene four was where I felt like the chapter ended. I don't think it's a very good ending place after scene two, and I don't really like the idea of scene three being a chapter all on its own (It will be shorter and less involved than the previous chapters that way). I noticed one or two of the multiple first novels I looked at did away with chapters altogether and just had the name of the POV character at the top each time it switched (I guess it was kind of like having a new chapter with every scene break but not labeling it a chapter). Not sure about that.

It's hard to judge why a scene break is not a good place for a chapter break, but if you just give the section a title instead of only a #, I wouldn't have a problem with it as a reader.

Testome · Feb 20, 2017

I would limit your first person narrators to two unless you have a firm grasp on the importance of their role in the story. Going beyond two first person narratives can lose me if they are not important enough to the story and less distinctive personalities. I find third person limited is better suited to that sort of thing. I much prefer first person to be regulated to a single pov myself. Not to say more can't be done well, but it's easy to mess up.

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

cmi0616 said:
Trouble by Non Pratt is another title you'll want to add to the reading list--it's a Contemporary YA novel that alternates between two first-person narrators, and it's well done.

Usually I don't mind multiple POV characters, whether in first or third person. The only thing that bugs me is when characters who don't figure majorly in the plot get a lot of unwarranted attention. I've seen entire chapters devoted to characters who seem entirely superfluous--this is frustrating. In other words, there's got to be a pressing narrative purpose for each POV character you introduce.

Thanks cmi0616. Trouble sounds like a good book to have a look at. The POV characters (especially the two I'm going with) do play majorly into the plot.

Having only the two POV characters does make me worry more about my second POV character's age for YA (since she's 13). Somehow it seemed better when it was: MC - 17, POV character - 18 (in HS), POV character - 13. Now that it's MC - 17, POV character - 13, it might be more of a problem. But the POV character whose age fits better with YA is less essential as a POV character and doesn't have as distinct a voice. And the 13-year-old needs to be young or she'll be annoying and overly naïve. Maybe I can make her 14. I guess that's a different question altogether.

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
There's no set number. I can think of some fantasy novels that have several first-person povs (Jones and Bennet's Havemercy and Sarah Monette's Melusine are examples), but imo you need to be good at keeping the voices distinct from one another, and they should all have their own arc, stakes, and take on things, yet each should also have an important role in moving the story along.

Outside of genre fiction, Kingsolver's The Poisonwood Bible is a very good book told from different povs in first person (three, at least).

Thanks, Roxxsmom. Will look at those books. I do think I'll struggle with three and having them distinct. The three POV characters do have their own arcs and all, but the one is more major than the other and moves things more.

horrorchix89 · Feb 20, 2017

I have 5 POVs in the first person, and only 1 out of 10 betas complained about it. I don't think there's a limit as long as it's not confusing

Roxxsmom · Feb 20, 2017

CJSimone said:
Thanks, Roxxsmom. Will look at those books. I do think I'll struggle with three and having them distinct. The three POV characters do have their own arcs and all, but the one is more major than the other and moves things more.

One thing that might help a bit is eavesdropping on different people having conversations. Which speech mannerisms and peculiarities of wording set them apart from one another, and (in the case of people you know), how does their speech reflect distinct aspects of their personalities and values?

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

MaeZe said:
Could your scene breaks be chapter breaks instead? Or changing POVs less often is another option. Evaluate why you need character X's POV? Can you skip character X's POV in some scenes and vice versa with character Y's POV?

Take a look at how it's done in The Young Elites. The author mixes first and third, not multiple first person POVs. But you can see how when you are in one head, the other POV can be in third person some of the time. You might have to step back from the story to see how you can make it work. The reader doesn't always need to know what the author knows.

MaeZe said:
It's hard to judge why a scene break is not a good place for a chapter break, but if you just give the section a title instead of only a #, I wouldn't have a problem with it as a reader.

I guess they could be chapter breaks instead of scene breaks, but things felt connected in the chapters I have and I usually end my chapters on cliffhangers. Maybe too I feel funny about little chapters (my chapter one is 4000 words right now).

I try to choose the POV character with the most at stake or whose story I'm then focusing on. Gabe is the MC and it's all him for the first two chapters / first six scenes. Then it switches to Claire Noel, who's meeting Gabe and his family, as they've just moved into her community. Then things get set up to where Gabe and Claire Noel get to know each other, which is bad news for her since he's in a dangerous mess.

Roxxsmom · Feb 20, 2017

CJSimone said:
I guess they could be chapter breaks instead of scene breaks, but things felt connected in the chapters I have and I usually end my chapters on cliffhangers. Maybe too I feel funny about little chapters (my chapter one is 4000 words right now).

In Jones and Bennet's books, they have pretty hefty chapters, each one consisting of 4 named subsections, each one from the pov of one of the four main characters.

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

Testome said:
I would limit your first person narrators to two unless you have a firm grasp on the importance of their role in the story. Going beyond two first person narratives can lose me if they are not important enough to the story and less distinctive personalities. I find third person limited is better suited to that sort of thing. I much prefer first person to be regulated to a single pov myself. Not to say more can't be done well, but it's easy to mess up.

horrorchix89 said:
I have 5 POVs in the first person, and only 1 out of 10 betas complained about it. I don't think there's a limit as long as it's not confusing

Thanks, Testome and horrorchix89. I know a lot of it's personal preference about number of POV characters.

I do think the one POV character (Kallie) can probably be a secondary, non POV character. I'm worried I won't get her voice distinct enough from Gabe's (I'm thinking more of a problem in first than third), and to be honest it's a lot of work going deeper in first person (trying to get deeper and get rid of the distance I keep, as I've been encouraged in SYW). Kallie is Gabe's sister and his protector (he has mental health issues and is a troublemaker), and I think I can manage with either Gabe or Claire Noel always present in Kallie's current POV scenes, so I can switch the POV to one or the other of them.

CJSimone · Feb 20, 2017

Roxxsmom said:
In Jones and Bennet's books, they have pretty hefty chapters, each one consisting of 4 named subsections, each one from the pov of one of the four main characters.

I'll have to look into that. Maybe I'll end up posting my chapter three in SYW too since it's where another POV character comes in and see what people say about two first person POVs in the one chapter - If they keep them straight or were bothered or whatever.

CJSimone · Feb 21, 2017

I've been looking at the first person multiple POV books recommended here - thanks again for those.

I am noticing that in YA contemporaries when chapters aren't used and it's only scenes separated by names, it usually alternates back and forth between the two POV characters, rather than having one character have multiple scenes in a row. The scenes are pretty short before they switch to the next POV character.

Maybe it is important to stick to one POV per chapter, and I should find a way to make my chapter three's second scene more of a cliffhanger, so I can switch to a new chapter before going on to Gabe's POV scene.

I guess multiple first person is getting more common, especially in YA, so maybe won't be a big deal soon.

Tchaikovsky · Feb 24, 2017

Poisonwood Bible is one of my favorite books and it has multiple first person POVs. The story is told by the daughters' and mother's experiences. You need to consider what your reasoning is and be sure you clearly delineate between which head you are in.

+1, also one of my favorite books.

I recall reading somewhere that for each scene in the book, the author would write it from ALL the characters' viewpoints, then choose one in the end. This way, she is clearly able to separate their voices. Must have been a lot of work, and well worth the reward.

CJSimone · Feb 25, 2017

laserkey said:
+1, also one of my favorite books.

I recall reading somewhere that for each scene in the book, the author would write it from ALL the characters' viewpoints, then choose one in the end. This way, she is clearly able to separate their voices. Must have been a lot of work, and well worth the reward.

Wow, that would be a lot of work with the number of viewpoint characters she has. But I can see where it could really help.

shootseven · Feb 26, 2017

I just had a novel published with multiple first person POVs (rotating between 5 characters). No complains about that so far but it just went on sale yesterday so too early to tell how it goes over generally.

One thing I can tell you is some agents and publishers will be hesitant to read it because of the multiple POVs. I had many rejections (based just on the query) with the reason given is that it's very difficult to pull off multiple POVs. Good luck with it.

CJSimone · Feb 26, 2017

shootseven said:
I just had a novel published with multiple first person POVs (rotating between 5 characters). No complains about that so far but it just went on sale yesterday so too early to tell how it goes over generally.

One thing I can tell you is some agents and publishers will be hesitant to read it because of the multiple POVs. I had many rejections (based just on the query) with the reason given is that it's very difficult to pull off multiple POVs. Good luck with it.

Congrats shootseven and I hope it goes well with readers! This is good to know and makes me think I should avoid mentioning multiple POVs at the query stage. Since most agents ask for 5 page, 10 page or one chapter samples with the query, my sample would have only one POV.

Did you specify that your MS was written in first and did you mention in the query that it was 5 POVs or just say multiple POVs? Hard to sell multiple POVs is different than hard to sell multiple first POVs is different than hard to sell 5 POVs (first or third). Thanks!

ETA: Was your MS adult or YA (where first person is the standard)?

spork · Feb 27, 2017

I don't think three is too many as long as each character has his/her own distinct voice. I tend to struggle with multi-POV when one character refers to another as "my sister" and a different narrator calls that same character "my girlfriend." In those cases, it's easier for me to keep track of names rather than relationships. In the best examples, I don't need to see who is narrating at the top of the page because I can tell who's talking from their unique narrating style.

shootseven · Feb 27, 2017

CJSimone said:
Congrats shootseven and I hope it goes well with readers! This is good to know and makes me think I should avoid mentioning multiple POVs at the query stage. Since most agents ask for 5 page, 10 page or one chapter samples with the query, my sample would have only one POV.

Did you specify that your MS was written in first and did you mention in the query that it was 5 POVs or just say multiple POVs? Hard to sell multiple POVs is different than hard to sell multiple first POVs is different than hard to sell 5 POVs (first or third). Thanks!

ETA: Was your MS adult or YA (where first person is the standard)?

Yes, in the query I included brief descriptions of the characters who would be telling the story (and said they'd all be first person POVs). The book is for an adult market (http://www.coreyrecko.com/deathofakootchshowgirl), so you may have a different experience.

Maybe it'll also be better received if you have experience in the genre. All I had published previously were two nonfiction books. The response I received reminded me of a story I heard about the writers of the movie Ed Wood. Their previous movies were Problem Child and Problem Child 2, so when they were pitching Ed Wood, a common response was something like "we like the idea, we just don't think you're good enough to write it." (I'm paraphrasing as I heard this 20 years ago)

What do you think of multiple first person POV? How many would you limit it to?

CJSimone

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