What's the market for HF?

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Just to ask publishers, but would you publish novels set in the following:

- Sengoku Japan
- Medieval France
- Ancient Sumeria
- Vedic India
- Ancient India
- Etc.

Why is it that we're often restrained to just English medieval novels all the time? I, as a reader am often bored with Saxons, English stuff.

I want something more exotic than this. I hear there's no markets for this kind of thing?

What do you think?
 

ironmikezero

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First concentrate on writing a good story; without that, the setting (time frame, geography, etc.) will be largely be irrelevant, at best mere backdrop that may not even be noticed if the reader can't relate to your characters and plot. Publishers don't fixate on settings, exotic or otherwise. They are interested in good strong stories that they can sell--it really is that simple.

Take any story that has ever appealed to you, now imagine it in a completely different setting. Still works, doesn't it?

Don't over-complicate the issue; story is everything.

Best of luck!
 

Sonsofthepharaohs

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Take any story that has ever appealed to you, now imagine it in a completely different setting. Still works, doesn't it?

Just my opinion, but you'd have to strip an HF novel way back to it's basic story elements to make it transcend setting- that is, if it was a really GOOD HF novel. Because in my experience, the best ones are products of their setting, not just good stories with exotic backdrops. I could transpose my historical crime novel to a different era, different country, and it would still be a crime novel with a political conspiracy and a romantic subplot, but almost every detail would have to change.

So, I don't believe setting is as incidental to a good novel as you imply. When it comes to good HF, setting *IS* story.
 

gingerwoman

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First concentrate on writing a good story; without that, the setting (time frame, geography, etc.) will be largely be irrelevant, at best mere backdrop that may not even be noticed if the reader can't relate to your characters and plot. Publishers don't fixate on settings, exotic or otherwise. They are interested in good strong stories that they can sell--it really is that simple.

Take any story that has ever appealed to you, now imagine it in a completely different setting. Still works, doesn't it?

Don't over-complicate the issue; story is everything.

Best of luck!

No offense, but )worrying about whether publishers will reject something based on various incidental things is kind of a rookie mistake. You have to write the best story.

On the other hand I'm going to totally contradict myself, and say that in genre fiction there are certain tropes that people do prefer, and you can have low sales by not fitting in with the tropes, but if this was literary fantasy, or just such a great novel that it transcended everything, then it wouldn't matter.

I don't know that anyone in this thread is actually a trade publisher, and I'm not a publisher, but I can tell you from my experiences of going to writing conferences, that publishers generally answer these types of questions with "it's all in the execution." Which means that what matters is how well the story is written.
 
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Old Hack

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I don't know that anyone in this thread is actually a trade publisher, and I'm not a publisher, but I can tell you from my experiences of going to writing conferences, that publishers generally answer these types of questions with "it's all in the execution." Which means that what matters is how well the story is written.

I'm not a publisher, I'm an editor. But from my perspective you're exactly right, ginger. Write a really good book which has strong commercial potential and you're there.
 

Herstory

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I wonder where you get the idea that we're "restrained to just English medieval novels." If you take a look at the Historical Novels Society, you'll see that novels in every time period and setting, including the ones on your list, are being published all the time. I know that publishers are looking for more unusual settings lately, too. There IS a market for this, though HF in general is a hard sell.

But yes, as others here have said, focus on the story first.
 

aruna

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Just my opinion, but you'd have to strip an HF novel way back to it's basic story elements to make it transcend setting- that is, if it was a really GOOD HF novel. Because in my experience, the best ones are products of their setting, not just good stories with exotic backdrops. I could transpose my historical crime novel to a different era, different country, and it would still be a crime novel with a political conspiracy and a romantic subplot, but almost every detail would have to change.

So, I don't believe setting is as incidental to a good novel as you imply. When it comes to good HF, setting *IS* story.

Absolutely. There's no way my historical novels set in British Guiana could have been set anywhere else in the world. he setting is completely interwoven with the story.

On the other hand I'm going to totally contradict myself, and say that in genre fiction there are certain tropes that people do prefer, and you can have low sales by not fitting in with the tropes, but if this was literary fantasy, or just such a great novel that it transcended everything, then it wouldn't matter.

.

For the last twelve years I've been struggling to get historical novels set in British Guiana/Guyana published. I must have submitted to every single agent in the US and UK in my quest. And written novel after novel.

The problem is not the book. Those that have read them, say they absolutely love the story and the writing, but -- Guyana. Too unknown a country. Readers are lost, don't want to go there in fiction, etc etc.

I finally found a small digital publisher who agreed to start publishing the books as they came out. I had a foreign rights agent who tried to sell the rights abroad -- but nothing doing. She said that foreign publishers don't even bother readng the books; as soon as they hear they are set in South America, it's over. I tried arguing that it's not really South America; it's a British ex-colony and so still part of British history. But nothing doing. she didn't even read them herself.

Then, after publishing the first book in a trilogy, my publisher also said that although they loved the books, they don't want to publish book two. They want me to publish books set in India instead. I adapted an India-set book (not too far back; I don't know if you can even call it historical. But it is India, and India sells.) They loved it and it sells better than the Guyana books.
So now they say they don't want book 3 of the trilogy. They want another India book.

I told them nothing doing. I have to finish the trilogy, and anyway, book three is the connecting book between book two and another book set more in modern times. We had a long back and forth. They really want me to write India books and the really, really didn't want Guyana books.

I agreed to write an India book. But only AFTER I had written the Guyana book 3. Then they tried to sneak in talking about getting the initial draft in April etc, in other words trying to get me to push back the Guyana book, write two more India books, and if I write the Guyana book, well it's my beer, they're not publishing it.

I just said, tough luck, not doing the India book first. I'm writing the Guyana book NOW; in February; and if they can't wait for an India book then tough luck. I really don't care. I have to write what I have to write. I was very calm about it and frankly, I didn't care. I knew what I had to do and I was going to do it no matter what.

There was a short silence and finally they came back and agreed to publish the Guyana book. Which I am now writing.

It helps to know what you have to write and not give in. I don't have an agent for these negotiations but I have to say, this ended well!

I suppose you are now thinking the Guyana books must be terrible and very non-commercial for them to act this way but that's not so. They sell reasonably well and get excellent reviews and I get a lot of fan mail so the problem really is the setting. My editors have always loved my Guyana books. They just worry about the strange setting. I would say the stories of those two books are very commercial. I really am a a very good story-teller, and the novels all have very strong emotional drive. The publisher even asked me once if I could rewrite a Guyana book and set it in India. You can guess my response to that! They were bending over backwards to keep me as a writer for them. Just not Guyana.

So: be aware of that. Setting does matter, and can trump execution; there are some locations that are judged as "not commercial" by definition.
 
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Thomas Vail

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Why is it that we're often restrained to just English medieval novels all the time?
We're not.

I hear there's no markets for this kind of thing?
Whoever is telling you that needs to actually take a look at what's on the shelf.

Take any story that has ever appealed to you, now imagine it in a completely different setting. Still works, doesn't it?
Nope. Not at least, in any good story I can think of. Especially in heroic fantasy, if the setting and cultural backdrop are nothing more than window dressing that can be changed even more easily than drapes, then there's probably something wrong with the story.
 
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I wonder where you get the idea that we're "restrained to just English medieval novels." If you take a look at the Historical Novels Society, you'll see that novels in every time period and setting, including the ones on your list, are being published all the time. I know that publishers are looking for more unusual settings lately, too. There IS a market for this, though HF in general is a hard sell.

But yes, as others here have said, focus on the story first.

Where would you find novels like this though? Most novels of the time period is rare. I don't see much to do with Sumeria, nor Ancient India for that matter on Amazon.

And India books - they're mostly just on modern setting showing the filth, corruption, and stinking roads.

That's not India, will never be. At one point Ancient India occupied half of the world's GDP. More interesting stuff to write about. For example, Chola Empire ruled all over Indonesia or so.


That has never been heard, nor thought off. It's not even in the Indian education system, a bypass of British colonial education.

Here's a question I asked on quora, and this image shows you what Ancient India looks like, not the modern conception of it now,.


Ancient temples built by the Chola Empire that is still suriving to this decade. Most Ancient Greek/Roman temples are in complete ruins.

http://www.india.com/travel/articles/the-great-living-chola-temples/

Ok I'm going off topic.

This would be great to write about.

I don't think there's a market for Ancient India, and I mean before, not the Mughals, but the Indic Kingdoms, the Cholas, the Mauryan Empire. Indian authors, such as Amish Tripathi, who write in English have covered the Shiva Triology if anyone's ever read it. I'd like to see more of that stuff in the English market.


Probably my area of complaint is that there is a huge lack of diversity within the HF market.

I mean you write a novel on Ancient India, ok, boom. Go to a Publisher - ''Oh no there's no market for it,''.

Not great. How do you explain that? They're really limiting genres here, you literally have to compromise and that's frustrating to the core because they're not sure of how it will launch.

Aruna - totally support you on this. You should stick with the Gunya books. No need of writing Indian unless it's of interest to you.

I've seen no novels on Babylon, nil. Nothing on Assyria, except history books.

https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-reconstruction-pictures-of-Ancient-Indian-cities

Has anyone ever written a novel of where 120,000 Assyrians under the rule of Queen Schenarib go to India and not a single one returns?

Has anyone ever written novels that are now being published of Persia, the great ancient empire that is often ignored for the Greeks? And how the Greeks just defeated them?

If anyone's interested:

http://historum.com/asian-history/53159-architecture-ancient-india.html

I mostly see English medieval, English Napoleonic, English WW2 etc. But look that's just my opinion, you all may even enjoy it. So I'm not saying that you should see it if I'm hating no. I loved C.J Sansom's Heartbroken series.

And if there are books, they've been published long back. You don't see, 2016, new novel set in China do you?

After all, wouldn't reading a novel on China, especially Tang China be more interesting? Plenty of periods have not been covered.

Remember this is just my opinion, that's it, I suspect I am venting out my own frustration on this, but I think I need to.
 
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blacbird

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I don't think there's a market for Ancient India, and I mean before, not the Mughals, but the Indic Kingdoms, the Cholas, the Mauryan Empire. Indian authors, such as Amish Tripathi, who write in English have covered the Shiva Triology if anyone's ever read it. I'd like to see more of that stuff in the English market.

Then write a good story, and make a market. The key part of that statement is the first phrase: Write a good story. Stop worrying about "market".

caw
 

mayqueen

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Herstory mentioned a good resource: Historical Novel Society. They have a massive catalog of reviews of all kinds of historical novels, sorted by time period, geographical location, and publisher. I've primarily been writing in the early middle ages, and I've used HNS as a great resource for finding comp titles or novels in that setting that would hep my research. There are similar websites online that sort historical novels by time and place. Even on Amazon you can sort within the historical category by time and place.

I mean, of course all of these various novels aren't ending up on the shelves front and center at your local Barnes & Noble. And there are a ton of reasons for that. But to say that they're not being published is not correct.
 

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Then write a good story, and make a market. The key part of that statement is the first phrase: Write a good story. Stop worrying about "market".

caw

I guess I'll have to concede on that really. You're right, and we don't know what publishers want that much anyway.
 
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@Mayqueen.

Thanks for the links, it doesn't have the time periods that I'm looking for unforunately.

But my point is that in today'ss market, you're not seeing anything like that. No novels of Sumeria, Ancient India etc. Sure the list has them, but they're all old stuff.

Not denying Medieval France at all. What about Spain in the 18th century?

I suppose I'm too demanding as a reader. I'd love to read more world novels than just English ones.

I might as well pick any of these periods, write the damn thing, and then do as the process entails.

Likewise I'll stop the convo or else I'll go into much off-topic stuff etc. No need to reply, I might as well just write these periods instead of asking why isn't there any more stuff like this in HF market.

You are welcome to disagree with me, I respect that.

If I appeared rude, or my words came out wrong, I apologise as it was not my intention to do so, or arrogant, then once again apologies.

Thank you all for the links!
 
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mayqueen

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Not Spain, but bestselling author David Liss has one set in eighteenth century Portugal. And not Spain or eighteenth century, but Laila Lalami was a Pulitzer Prize finalist for THE MOOR'S ACCOUNT, a fictionalized account of Spain's sixteenth century exploration of Florida. Those are both within the past two or three years.

These books are getting published. You just have to look for them a little more. As AW Admin said, Goodreads is another place to look. Historical fiction is a difficult market to break into, that's for sure, but as many in this thread have said, write an amazing manuscript and the rest will follow. Writing is a tough enough business to be in without really loving what you're doing, so write the book you want to read and make it as good as possible. Then worry about market.*

There was an interesting survey of readers of historical fiction in 2015.

*Which is not to say, as Aruna so clearly articulated, that there aren't some settings and stories that are less commercial than others.
 
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Interesting, but there's that lack of world cultures. Not so great, but hey, you're right, write a good story and see what happens.
 

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Templar, please either reduce the size of those images or delete them. We have strict image-size guidelines because some of our members rely on internet connections which can't handle them. The maximum is 400 x 400 pixels. There's more information in our FAQs room.

Probably my area of complaint is that there is a huge lack of diversity within the HF market.

I mean you write a novel on Ancient India, ok, boom. Go to a Publisher - ''Oh no there's no market for it,''.

Not great. How do you explain that? They're really limiting genres here, you literally have to compromise and that's frustrating to the core because they're not sure of how it will launch.

If you submit a sloppy book about anything to a publisher they'll turn it down. If you submit a really good book about (almost) anything to the right publisher, they'll be glad to have it.

(That "almost" is there because I don't know any reputable publishers which would publish books praising paedophilia or cannibalism, for example.)

Templar, I have seen you make several sweeping statements about publishing and I really wish you'd stop. I don't know where you're getting your information from but you are mistaken on many things. I suggest you do a little more research, using more reliable sources than you've been depending on so far, before you go much further.

I guess I'll have to concede on that really. You're right, and we don't know what publishers want that much anyway.

Actually, we do. They want great books. Well-written, good stories, strong commercial potential. It's easier than ever, now, to connect with publishers, agents and editors: Twitter is brilliant for getting to know a few publishing people and finding out their preferences and desires.
 

Roxxsmom

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There have certainly been a number of popular fantasy novels in recent years that aren't set in historical Britain, nor in settings that resemble it. From what I can tell, many agents and editors say (at least) that they're looking for fantasy that incorporates other kinds of settings, including ones that aren't based on western Europe at all.

Read some of the wish lists agents and editors are posting on their sites, or on places like twitter, for instance.
 

aruna

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Then write a good story, and make a market. The key part of that statement is the first phrase: Write a good story. Stop worrying about "market".

caw

That's what I've been doing. By the time I signed with my present publisher I had four unpublished manuscripts on my hard disc, written over a period of ten years. You might say now that they probably weren't much good; but in most cases nobody even gave them a chance. As my agent at the time said: they only have to hear South America, and turn away.

The exceptions of course would be really really top-of-the league literary fiction, which is not what I write. There's Marlon James, who won the Booker Prize a while ago for a very avant-garde book, not very commercial. But he too began with a tiny publisher.

There IS a calculation that certain locations/time periods are not commercial, and not even the greatest novel can break into that if agents and editors don't even read the damn thing!!!!

(No, I am not angry. I persevered, and I have reached a point where I'm confident about my writing, because it seems I'm nearing the top of my game, and I'm just doing the best I can and not worrying about publishing. Read my post above.)

If you submit a sloppy book about anything to a publisher they'll turn it down. If you submit a really good book about (almost) anything to the right publisher, they'll be glad to have it.

OH: they really, really don't want books set in Guyana. Not even really, really good books. Not even a tiny publisher like Bookouture. My Guyana books would have to be constant top 100 bestsellers in order to break that prejudice.

I do understand it. Why should an English reader bother to read a book set in a location they never even heard of, when there are so many other good books on offer -- books with a familiar background.
I've concentrated on story, so that people can accept the unfamiliar background and word might spread; that they are good stories. It's hard but I'm getting there. I'm building a fan base and I'm quite pleased with sales to date. But still not good enough to break that taboo.

In a recent poll I took note of on a rather large Facebook reading club more than half of the readers said they preferred books set in familiar settings. Publishers are probably right not to break new ground.

I would really need a huge commercial breakthrough in order to overcome the "no unknown setting" taboo. In the meantime I'm just writing and doing the best I can.

There are definite trends in publisher interest, and right now what I write is off the radar.
 
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mpack

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What about Spain in the 18th century?

Arturo Perez-Reverte has written a number of historical fictions set in Spain in the 17th & 19th Centuries. Many of these have been translated to English.
 

aruna

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There have certainly been a number of popular fantasy novels in recent years that aren't set in historical Britain, nor in settings that resemble it. From what I can tell, many agents and editors say (at least) that they're looking for fantasy that incorporates other kinds of settings, including ones that aren't based on western Europe at all.

Read some of the wish lists agents and editors are posting on their sites, or on places like twitter, for instance.

It seems to me that readers are more happy to accept a novel set in a completely made up fantasy world, than in a realistic historical world they are not familiar with.
 

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Maybe it's different for contemporary fiction, or even historical fiction, but I read fantasy and SF. One of the things I'm often looking for when I pick up a book is a setting I've never heard of (because it doesn't exist at all in real life).

Of course, biases still hold. I like to read (and write) fantasy that isn't based closely on anything in the real world, but coming up with traditions, religious, cultures, and values completely from scratch is hard. Also, the nature of bias is being blind to the ways one's own cultural norms (and those of books one has read in the past) will creep into one's world building. And as a reader, it can be bewildering, even alienating, if the protagonist's needs, wants, and values are too foreign to one's own perspective.

I recently have read and enjoyed some fantasy books that are set it, or based on, non-western characters and settings.
 

aruna

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I know it sounds as if I might be deluded as to my writing, and it's simply that the books are just not good enough. But this is what my editor wrote after I insisted on writing the third Quint book (Book three of my trilogy):

I totally understand and I too have been thinking very carefully about everything. I know I speak for everyone at Bo*kouture when I say that we really do want to keep publishing you. You’re an exceptional writer who we are very proud to have on the list and I personally feel very attached to the Quint books. So… given that you of course must write the next Quint book and need to take your time doing so, would you consider the following:



(follows details on book deals that would include the Quint book I insist on writing). A two book or three book deal)
 
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