Templars, Guns, Gloryhunters and Conspiarcy,

Templar's Creed · Feb 8, 2017

http://www.scribophile.com/forums/writing/105433

I've been wanting to get people's opinion about this. So here's my subject:

So I asked on these forums here, and now am wanting to ask the same thing here. I want to understand how I can approach this topic:
This isn't that kind of title I assure you but in one of my stories I've wanted to use the Templars as a plot device. Unfortunately, Ubisoft picked up this plot device and made it their own brand which sucks.
If I wanted to write a story about Pirates and Templars, aka golden age of piracy - that would be too similar to AC4.

If I wanted to write a story about Mayan treasures and stuff and put Templars, I'm not sure who their adversary would be.

I've been struggling to create fantasy style secret orders. The AC universe has the benefit of having established historical orders, but I'm not sure which ones have had the most impact, I could create an order called the Copperheads but then it would be too similar to an AC rogue setting where I could have French and British troops battling each other out etc.

If I wanted to enter such a story, having Templars in a short story comp, I have a fear it may be considered too inspired from video games which I do not want at all.
The AC universe takes history and spins it with a fantasy order: Assassins fighting for free will and Templars for order and justice, they both want peace but have different methods
and keep fighting for it through various periods of history.

I would like to do something similar but am not sure whether it would be too much 'copying'. Personally that type of thing appeals to me, secret orders battling it out in history etc.
Essentially can I use the Templars and create an adversarial order or is that considered stealing?

Also, I've noticed Mark Lawrence using Vikings in his fantasy series. If I wrote a fantasy story, I could just have the Samurai, the Romans and other civilisations without having to use fantasy names, because it would be much easier than having to invent new names which is a pain!

Marlys · Feb 8, 2017

First, put some lines between paragraphs to break up this wall of text--it's really hard to read.

Second, maybe say what AC stands for the first time you use it.

Finally, if your main question is: 'Can I write about the Knights Templar even though other writers and game creators have also used them?' then the answer is yes, if what you write comes from your own research and isn't ripping off whatever the others did. Also, if what you're writing is historical, you'll need to stick to what they actually did. If it's historical fantasy, maybe ask a mod to port this over to SFF.

Templar's Creed · Feb 8, 2017

Done.

Assassin's Creed.

A question, when Steven Saylor writes in his novels about Gordanius interacting with Egyptian Gods, doesn't that technially become a historical fantasy?

I'd just stick to a Indiana style jones novel type. Except historical fantasy's not really popular as far I know, or is it?

mayqueen · Feb 9, 2017

Marlys said:
Finally, if your main question is: 'Can I write about the Knights Templar even though other writers and game creators have also used them?' then the answer is yes, if what you write comes from your own research and isn't ripping off whatever the others did. Also, if what you're writing is historical, you'll need to stick to what they actually did. If it's historical fantasy, maybe ask a mod to port this over to SFF.

I agree with all of this.

The other thing of note is that the historical Knights Templar ended in the early fourteenth century with a pretty horrific wiping out. I'm not familiar at all with the whole Assassin's Creed thing, so I'm not sure at all how they're using the Templars. But the Templars in historical fact would have not existed when the golden age of piracy was happening in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. That would have been more the Knights of Malta (the Hospitallers). My WIP deals with them a little bit. And in my opinion, they don't appear enough in fiction. There's so much interesting and cool stuff that happened around the corsairs in the Mediterranean. But now I'm just rambling.

Anyway, I would say that historical fantasy and fantasy inspired by history are far more popular than straight historical fiction.

CWatts · Feb 9, 2017

mayqueen said:
I agree with all of this.

The other thing of note is that the historical Knights Templar ended in the early fourteenth century with a pretty horrific wiping out. I'm not familiar at all with the whole Assassin's Creed thing, so I'm not sure at all how they're using the Templars. But the Templars in historical fact would have not existed when the golden age of piracy was happening in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. That would have been more the Knights of Malta (the Hospitallers). My WIP deals with them a little bit. And in my opinion, they don't appear enough in fiction. There's so much interesting and cool stuff that happened around the corsairs in the Mediterranean. But now I'm just rambling.

Anyway, I would say that historical fantasy and fantasy inspired by history are far more popular than straight historical fiction.

Yes I don't think I've run across much about the Knights of Malta in fiction, unlike the Templars (who are in a whole lot of pop culture besides AC - Dan Brown's thrillers etc.). Of course that could be because they still exist - in fact a quick search reveals a leadership controversy over the past few months. I wonder if they're litigious?

Not to derail the thread but I've been wondering about subgenre popularity. Historical mystery also seems to be doing better than straight historical. I've wondering how much to branch out - such as by incorporating paranormal elements of Victorian spiritualism that the characters believe.

mayqueen · Feb 9, 2017

I just saw an article on their controversy with the Pope and I had the same reaction! But yes I don't know why they aren't in more fiction. I was at a reading by Cecelia Holland (who wrote JERUSALEM, a fictionalized account of Baldwin IV's conflict with Saladin), and someone asked why there's so much interest in Templars, and she joked it's because Hospitallers is hard to pronounce.

When I was first doing research for my WIP, I stumbled across some novels I'd never heard of before fictionalizing some of their major sieges, like their ousting from Rhodes in 1522 (after a six month siege). And of course Dorothy Dunnett used the Siege of Tripoli in one of her novels. I suspect that the Knights of Malta have less mystery and occult around them, given that they were never brutally exterminated in a conspiracy.

I do think mysteries and thrillers are doing better than straight historicals. I think it's because there's more of a cross-market.

ETA: This might be one of the nerdiest things I've ever written on the internet. Thank god for AW.

Templar's Creed · Feb 9, 2017

So for example, if we read a novel by Andy Mc Dermott, or a novel set by Clive Cussler, they have small historical periods.

If I wrote about Templars and Hospilitars, would this go into the realm of alternate history? I haven't seen many alternate history novels. I would focus on the Templars/Hospitalirs and other orders shaping world events, not just one.

mayqueen · Feb 9, 2017

Templar's Creed said:
If I wrote about Templars and Hospilitars, would this go into the realm of alternate history? I haven't seen many alternate history novels. I would focus on the Templars/Hospitalirs and other orders shaping world events, not just one.

Can you say more about this? If you're writing historical fiction, you shouldn't swerve from the facts. You couldn't have the Templars saving France from the Nazis in 1942 or something. But you could write an alternative history novel where the Templars weren't extinguished and do go on to thrive. Or you could write a fantasy novel with a military order kind of like the Templars who save the world.

I mean, it's fiction! You can do anything if you do it well. But historical fiction readers do get pissy if you blatantly disregard facts. So just don't call it historical fiction if that's what you want to do.

Templar's Creed · Feb 9, 2017

mayqueen said:
Can you say more about this? If you're writing historical fiction, you shouldn't swerve from the facts. You couldn't have the Templars saving France from the Nazis in 1942 or something. But you could write an alternative history novel where the Templars weren't extinguished and do go on to thrive. Or you could write a fantasy novel with a military order kind of like the Templars who save the world.

I mean, it's fiction! You can do anything if you do it well. But historical fiction readers do get pissy if you blatantly disregard facts. So just don't call it historical fiction if that's what you want to do.

Asssassins Creed generally involve the Asssassins and The Templars changing world history events. But they still stick to the confines of it.

So what then would I call it exactly? Historical science fiction? Alternate history?

For example, I could be writing a novel, set in the Spanish Empire of the 18th century, having a Spanish officer search for the city of Tolan. He's part of the Santiago order. He's in conflict with the English that want to get there before him.

Now if we removed the hypthoetical orders for a second, there is no evidence that the English actually sent a naval force to find this city because it was already in Spanish control. It would be mad. Except I've just fictionlazied it. Would that be HF adventure novel or just something else?

If I called it fantasy, I'm not sure how it would be recieved. I write Epic fantasy, so that's just using world cultures. But the AC series is technially a whole big host of fantasy stuff, just mixed in historiccal time periods.

But I agree with your points!

So I'm not sure how I could define it, but I think I'll get on with writing it and then worrying about this whole category thing.

VeryBigBeard · Feb 9, 2017

Just to clear something up: Assassin's Creed is definitely in the historical fantasy side of things. Arguably much more fantasy than historical. It uses the settings and some broad strokes of history, but it's ultimately it's own fictional world. The general premise is a descendant of the Templars is sent back in time to change events. I'm not that familiar with it, but think more Doctor Who than straight historical fiction.

Every book (or game, film, etc.) makes its own world with its own reality and rules. Some can operate within an expanded world of what we know about our world--that's historical fiction. Others create a fantasy world based one of our time periods. There are infinite shades of grey. You can do whatever you want as long as you put your own spin on it. There have been loads and loads of books with Templars, from those based heavily on historical research to straight fantasy that merely borrows the name and some surface details.

At some level, everything will look like something else. A lot of this comes down to the execution. Good characterization, good conflict, and good motivation can take a stock character and make the story compelling on its own.

Just make your Templars yours, rather than the AC Templars. Otherwise you're writing AC fanfic.

frimble3 · Feb 9, 2017

And, exactly what do you want from your 'Templars'? Groups of fighters? Single, ninja-like fighters? How are you planning on using them? Do you want a fighting man with a religious background, or a religious man who wants to defend the faithful? For Knights - even less known than the Hospitallers (it's not the pronunciation - it's the spelling

) is the Order of the Teutonic Knights. Although now they're apparently a ceremonial/honorary thing, in their day they were fighters. Apparently, there were other, more minor, military orders formed at the time of the Crusades. Why not just follow the pattern of the others and make up one of your own?

Templar's Creed · Feb 10, 2017

Interesting replies, wil be responding.

autumnleaf · Feb 10, 2017

mayqueen said:
I mean, it's fiction! You can do anything if you do it well. But historical fiction readers do get pissy if you blatantly disregard facts. So just don't call it historical fiction if that's what you want to do.

The genre labels are often about marketing. If you market something as "historical fiction", reader will expect it to stick relatively closely to the recorded facts (with artistic license to fill in the blanks), whereas if you market it as "historical fantasy" or "alternative history" the readers will have different expectations.

Historical fantasy definitely has a market. See for example the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik or the Sevenwater series by Judith Marillier.

I've never played Assassin's Creed, but it did come up in a recent conversation. This woman said her son wasn't interested in history until he started playing AC, but now he can't get enough of reading about the eras that AC is set in. Assassin's Creed: the gateway drug for the budding history buff!

JimmyB27 · Feb 10, 2017

VeryBigBeard said:
The general premise is a descendant of the Templars is sent back in time to change events.

There's no time travel involved in AC. They use the idea of genetic memory to study the past. It's kind of a tricky one to pin down to a single genre really. There's alt-history (the templars vs asssassins conflict spanning the centuries). There's sci-fi (the animus technology they use to access genetic memory - the concept of genetic memory itself is such soft SF that it's bordering on fantasy. There's fantasy (some of the assassin's abilities are truly magical - they have something called Eaglevision and can see through walls, they are far more resilient to damage than a normal human - handy for all that parkour).

All that is pretty much a derail though (sorry). On topic, yeah, I agree with the rest. Just don't have your Templars locked in a centuries long conflict with a group calling themselves The Assassins and you'll be cool.

Templar's Creed · Feb 10, 2017

Right, will respond to this fascinating discussion soon!

benbenberi · Feb 10, 2017

In real history the Templars were long gone by the 16c. But there were a variety of other orders that were very much active in that period, and some, like the Jesuits, Franciscans & Dominicans, were strongly focused on colonial affairs. The Knights of Malta (aka the Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem) were a strong naval power in that period, historically limited to the Mediterranean (their main enemy = the Ottoman Empire) but in alt-history maybe more wide-ranging.

IMO the Templars are way overplayed in pop culture -- there's not really that much you can plausibly do with them that won't immediately conjure up half a dozen other instances of other people doing much the same. If you want your story to look original and not like yet another retread (or fanfic), pick some order that hasn't been everybody's go-to in the field, or make up one of your own.

Templars, Guns, Gloryhunters and Conspiarcy,

Templar's Creed

Marlys

Resist. Love. Go outside.

Templar's Creed

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

CWatts

down the rabbit hole of research...

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

Templar's Creed

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

Templar's Creed

VeryBigBeard

Preparing for winter

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

Templar's Creed

autumnleaf

practical experience, FTW

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

Templar's Creed

benbenberi

practical experience, FTW