"You Have Too Many Characters"

horrorchix89 said:

Can I post all 77,000 words?

And the 3 I have now volunteered

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If there are issues with writing, they're almost certainly visible in most chunks. It'd be odd for someone to produce a whole book that had, say, some issue with filtering only in one section, or that had problems with grammar just in the center. No one is suggesting you don't use betas, they're good for lots of things, including big-picture overview stuff, but you're saying some of the betas have suggested there might be issues with stuff that'd be easy to tell from excerpts of a few thousand words.

In other words, it sounds like your work might not be ready for a beta read. Posting a chapter or two in SYW might illuminate mechanical issues within the text.

horrorchix89 said:

Right now I don't want to post in SYW

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Then we can only assume that the beta performed his task to the best of his abilities, and that any case of too many characters in your writing is either 1) down to his personal preferences/abilities of keeping track of characters, or 2) a general issue which needs to be considered.

I've never worked with a paid beta before, but I've worked with subcontractors and associates. My experience is that people for whose services you pay on an as-required basis rely very heavily on word of mouth and good reputation to keep clients (and therefore, work) coming back and recommending to others. Maybe the beta wasn't the right one for you, but if he's given you feedback that you've paid for then he's done his job. If he wanted an easy-sell, he could've given easier feedback to handle.

You say early in the thread that the beta also listed several other genres in which he betas for, in which case he might be more widely-read than the audience you're anticipating for your particular story. Perhaps the other betas will be able to agree with or refute the issues he's listed with your many characters. Otherwise, it sounds like you're well on your way to polishing your novel with your changing up of languages to help distinguish voice and a focus on removing redundant use of the word 'I'.

horrorchix89 said:

Can I post all 77,000 words?

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Well, not all at once, I don't think. Maybe start with the first chapter and see how that goes.

Or, if you want to see whether your different first-person voices are distinctive, you could try posting the first 200-300 words from each POV.

horrorchix89 said:

I just got back a report from a beta reader who 1. didn't seem to like anything in my story and 2. didn't seem to like my writing either. He said he reads the genre...but also listed 6 other genres that are different. So maybe he reads them all the same way? That's fine though, I paid him to be honest.

Now I have a bigger problem. I was told I have too many characters. This is the second beta so far. The first one mentioned silly errors and pointed out some things that were missing/wrong/etc. The second beta (the one I'm talking about now) says I have way too many characters which stretch out the plot.

I have 1 MC, 4 supporting roles, and the other names are just victims that I gave a name to so I wouldn't have to keep saying "the blonde girl" or "boy with blue eyes." Should I remove the unimportant character names? And if so, how can I mention them without being repetitive?

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I've just read what you posted in SYW and decided to answer the above question here, because I think I can see what the feedback above is getting at, and plus, on your SYW thread you've said you only want feedback regarding making the individual voices distinctive enough.

The issue, IMO isn't that you have too many characters, it's that you have too many POVs. Having the 5 characters (was it five? I lost count) in your story is totally fine and it's not too many. However, telling the story or parts of the story from that many points of view was just too much to process. Your first POV character Sasame totally engaged me. Great character, great story situation. I wanted to read on, in fact I want to read her whole story. Well-written. Distinctive voice. It ticks all the boxes.

Then you have all these other POV characters. I didn't like your second POV character at all. I didn't like his attitude and his worst problem was being late for class which frankly was self-infliced, so what was the point in being in his POV? I don't necessarily have to like a character to get into their POV. In fact I like getting a glimpse into the mind of fundamentally unlikable or outright criminally insane characters - but that would be in a situation that shows the pathology in their thinking. This doesn't do that.

Then you have 3 more (I think it was 3) POV characters. I lost count because trying to take in so many POVs got overwhelming and I started skim reading and lost interest (except in Sasame. I still want to read her story.)

The thing is, when you're in a character's POV in first person or close third, you completely identify with that person and see the world through their eyes. It's a very engaging POV and when it's written well and the character's interesting enough, you want to keep reading and learn more about them, their world, what's going on in their life and most importantly, how they're going to get through the problems in their life and end up in a (hopefully) better situation. You naturally take on board a lot of information about them.

So when there are 5 POV characters, my brain simply can't grasp and store that amount of information about all five in the short time it takes to read a chapter. This means I can't get into the other POVs at all.

IMO that's the issue. The positives you should take from this is that you can write first person narrative that is truly engaging and makes the reader feel engrossed in the character's world and wants to keep reading and doesn't want to be wrenched out of, and also that I really want to read Sasame's story.

My advice would be to stick mainly or entirely to Sasame's POV and if the other POVs are necessary for the story, maybe first person isn't the best way to do it.

If you feel that you really want to tell these characters' stories in first person POV kind of detail, then maybe they deserve stories of their own. It reminds me of advice I got years ago from a photography teacher... don't try to cram too much into one photo. If there's something that you really feel is so important to include in your photo then maybe it deserves a photo of its own.

horrorchix89 said:

I think having the story told in multiple POVs confused him. Even though 1. I told him how it was written BEFORE I sent the money and manuscript and 2. I listed the POVs name right under the chapter title so the reader knows who's marrating (like "Chapter 25: Nevin" "Chapter 14: Ashley").

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I recently read a book with 3-4 POVs. Even though the character's name was listed at the head of each chapter, I couldn't keep track of which character was narrating when I was in the middle of a chapter or after a break in reading. This structure was also complicated by the fact that they were all narrating the same major event. If your characters don't have distinct voices or in-depth characterization, it could be confusing to keep track of five narrators without losing sight of their unique relationships, personal histories, or experiences.

I had this same critique for my second novel and in that case I think he was right. I had about seven different POV's and the whole story was about them eventually meeting up. I am glad I wrote it still and some people like a lot of characters but it can get confusing or frustrating. In your case though I don't think you have too many characters at all. You need a good cast in most books and we tend to enjoy supporting characters as much as main characters, so I wouldn't worry too much on this account. If you start getting the same feedback from a dozen different readers then that's a sign. Otherwise, it's just his opinion.

Hmm... I think I see more what the beta was getting at now that I've read the post in SYW.

While I easily deal with multiple POV characters, my question has changed:

What's distinctive about each of the POV characters? So far, I can only really say that Sasame is unique amongst the 5 POVs. The others? They sound like different parts of Sasame's personality, or different parts of a second character. Therefore, IMO, they slow down the plot. I don't really see them adding anything to the "action" per se.

Ergo, how unique is each POV character? What are their deepest fears, philosophies, hopes, etc.? What has shaped each POV to bring them to this point?

Examples: POV 1 lost her parents, but weathered it well, except she chokes up every time death happens to those in her immediate vicinity. POV 2 lives on the edge, is always trying to wheedle his way out trouble and promises he can't keep. The classic wannabe con who doesn't have the guts to go all the way. POV 3 is quiet, shy, and unassuming. But fury boils beneath the surface and it erupts once every 3 or so years; fearsome and debilitating to observe or experience. POV 4 sees only the superficial, and motivation is external. It's all about material possessions and worth. POV 5 prefers the company of animals, and grunts almost all responses. Is reluctant to interact with the human species at all and is surly when doing so.

Each POV has its own expressions in this case and typical identifying phrases. E.g., POV 1: "Don't die, please don't die". POV 2: "Din't do dat, an' dat ain't mine; an' I ain't no way promised dat." POV 3: Nods a lot, but, at some point shrieks "How dare you be a !@#$!" POV 4: "That is such a cute outfit, but, oh what a horribly dusty environment! Please be a dear and hand me a filter mask." POV 5: "Bug off, human."

horrorchix89 said:

Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read a bit of my characters' stories. I was told not to defend crits (which I have an issue with, I'm a very defensive person due to my other occupation) so I won't try to explain my way out of this.

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That's a very important piece of advice to keep in mind. Don't respond or try to defend against criticism. Accept it, evaluate it, then disregard or assimilate it as needed. It's POSSIBLE to defend and explain your writing in a limited environment like a writing group or a forum, but it's not once you release your work into the wild. It's quite possible someone missed something, or they didn't understand what you were trying to say, but you should take it as an opportunity to take a look back at your work and see if what they said has any merit, and to make sure things are as clear as you can make it.

Once it's published, if there is something that makes people stop and go, 'hey, wait a second-' you can't personally visit them and say, 'you;ve got that wrong, let me explain.'

Thomas Vail said:

That's a very important piece of advice to keep in mind. Don't respond or try to defend against criticism. Accept it, evaluate it, then disregard or assimilate it as needed.

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A good way to parse criticisms of work is to recognize that the critique may not have identified the problem precisely, but has identified that something isn't working right. For me, criticisms are signals that I need to look harder at certain specific aspects or points of story, to see if I can't make things better, clearer, smoother, more effective, or whatever. In terms of the original question posed in the thread, the critique may have really been saying, You have too many characters that are too similar, rather than just plain Too many characters.

caw

horrorchix89 said:

I decided to add more emotion ...

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How does one do this exactly?