Ringling Brothers Circus To Cease Operations

Brightdreamer

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Our zoo closed down the elephant exhibit and sent the last two animals away to what turned out to be even worse situations. There are no guarantees here.

I took my kids to the RB circus one time. We went early, to see the march. Seeing the huge, majestic elephants up close had a true and lasting impact on my kids. I've wished often I could have provided that by seeing elephants in the wild instead, but I couldn't. In the end, even that didn't outweigh--for any of us--the knowledge that the elephants were being kept as prisoners. Seeing them prodded to perform was painful.

I wish the best for the animals. and for everyone affected, including those who made the decision. Elephants are declining in the wild due to ivory poaching. Hopefully we can turn our resources to preserving them in their habitats.

I have a very real fear that when elephants and other rare/endangered/"exotic" species are out of sight, they'll be out of mind... and therefore out of time. These moves to get them more humane conditions is laudable, but removing them completely from the public eye... that, I fear, might backfire. Humans don't care about what they can't see. Your kids seeing those elephants live, up close - a circus wasn't an ideal habitat, true, but your kids will likely remember that a lot more than they'll remember a picture in a book or a video on YouTube. There's something about the real-life encounter that really says "This is magnificent - this deserves saving." We have to find a balance, I think, some way to expose humans to these animals and make them care that doesn't unduly compromise their well-being. (And there are an awful lot of animals that, for whatever reason, cannot be returned to the wild... can they not become "ambassadors"?)
 

cornflake

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I have a very real fear that when elephants and other rare/endangered/"exotic" species are out of sight, they'll be out of mind... and therefore out of time. These moves to get them more humane conditions is laudable, but removing them completely from the public eye... that, I fear, might backfire. Humans don't care about what they can't see. Your kids seeing those elephants live, up close - a circus wasn't an ideal habitat, true, but your kids will likely remember that a lot more than they'll remember a picture in a book or a video on YouTube. There's something about the real-life encounter that really says "This is magnificent - this deserves saving." We have to find a balance, I think, some way to expose humans to these animals and make them care that doesn't unduly compromise their well-being. (And there are an awful lot of animals that, for whatever reason, cannot be returned to the wild... can they not become "ambassadors"?)

How does seeing elephants at a circus or a zoo lead to people saving elephants? If that were the case, wouldn't they be in better shape by now? I think treating them like toys isn't helping people have empathy for them.

I'm not sure what you mean by ambassadors, but if it's anything besides being sheltered in as natural and large a habitat as possible, with no expectation to perform, or trot out for people, or be on display, then no.
 

ElaineA

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How does seeing elephants at a circus or a zoo lead to people saving elephants? If that were the case, wouldn't they be in better shape by now? I think treating them like toys isn't helping people have empathy for them.

That's not true in my kids' case, anyway. Both of them became very empathetic toward animals of all kinds. They didn't like the circus experience and told me so (they were both <6 yo). They felt sorry for the animals. (Also, I don't think any animal-encounter experience we ever had was presented as "animals as toys." I certainly never let them believe that.)

I'm not going to argue that we need zoos, aquariums and circuses for this purpose, but I think it can be legitimately be argued that in a decent number of cases, exposing children to wildlife (not necessarily large mammals) is a positive empathy-builder. I've seen it in action with my own eyes, and not just with my own kids. I'd prefer a way to provide the experience without sacrificing the animal's quality of life, but for many children, that's not available.

Whether those kids take the step of "saving the animals," well, you never know. Paul Allen is a computer guy, but in his philanthropist phase, he is backing the fight against the ivory trade, shark fishing, and efforts to rid the ocean of plastics. There doesn't have to be a direct correlation (ie: I went to the zoo and now I will become a vet or an activist) for the ultimate effect to have a positive outcome.

Maybe someday soon we can experience "zoos" through Vr. I can't actually think of a better use for the tech than to go to Woodland Park, put on my Vr headset, and walk around moving from environment to environment. The Serengeti plain for elephants and giraffes, the rain forest for the gorillas and monkeys. Maybe they'd have to keep the herpetology exhibit as-is. I don't want to Vr experience a boa constrictor around my ankle. I might have a coronary event. :)
 

cornflake

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That's not true in my kids' case, anyway. Both of them became very empathetic toward animals of all kinds. They didn't like the circus experience and told me so (they were both <6 yo). They felt sorry for the animals. (Also, I don't think any animal-encounter experience we ever had was presented as "animals as toys." I certainly never let them believe that.)

I'm not going to argue that we need zoos, aquariums and circuses for this purpose, but I think it can be legitimately be argued that in a decent number of cases, exposing children to wildlife (not necessarily large mammals) is a positive empathy-builder. I've seen it in action with my own eyes, and not just with my own kids. I'd prefer a way to provide the experience without sacrificing the animal's quality of life, but for many children, that's not available.

Whether those kids take the step of "saving the animals," well, you never know. Paul Allen is a computer guy, but in his philanthropist phase, he is backing the fight against the ivory trade, shark fishing, and efforts to rid the ocean of plastics. There doesn't have to be a direct correlation (ie: I went to the zoo and now I will become a vet or an activist) for the ultimate effect to have a positive outcome.

Maybe someday soon we can experience "zoos" through Vr. I can't actually think of a better use for the tech than to go to Woodland Park, put on my Vr headset, and walk around moving from environment to environment. The Serengeti plain for elephants and giraffes, the rain forest for the gorillas and monkeys. Maybe they'd have to keep the herpetology exhibit as-is. I don't want to Vr experience a boa constrictor around my ankle. I might have a coronary event. :)

I think that speaks well of your kids, but it's not a universal reaction. In a general sense, seems to me that watching animals perform tricks, live in little cages, be there to entertain or act as an exhibit, even if the exhibit is informational, would do less for getting kids and people to see animals as sentient beings deserving of life and protection than being told that, say, elephants live in Africa and Asia, here's video and pictures of them, this is why they live in those places and not here, and wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to go where they live and see them some day. That comes with inherent ideas about 'rights' and autonomy (even if, obviously, many animals are exploited in their native lands).

I don't have any evidence save anecdotal, but I believe there's a significant innate influence there, maybe on a spectrum. There are kids in meat-loving, even ranching families, who choose to go veg* very early. There are people who grow up in veg* families who end up eating meat. Growing up seeing animals like bears in little cages outside gas stations, 'dancing' for food or at Seaworld or the circus might just reinforce what's innate, or tip someone in the middle of a spectrum toward the 'animals are things' side.

It's an interesting question to me.
 

DancingMaenid

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I don't think zoos can necessarily be compared to circuses and things like Sea World where animals are kept just to do tricks and entertain. I have some mixed feelings about zoos, and I think it's best to limit how many wild animals we're taking out of their natural habitats, but zoos do try to save endangered species and the emphasis usually is on educating people and trying to take good care of the animals. I went to the zoo a couple years ago and I was a little uncomfortable with parts of it (was it really a good idea to keep howler monkeys in a heavily-traveled area?), many of the animals had large habitats where they were free to roam around with a minimum of human disturbance.

Whether zoos should continue or not, I think there's a clear difference between that and teaching elephants to balance on their hind legs or making orcas perform shows for tourists.

I think traditional circuses have been a dying breed for a while. I certainly don't have a problem with most of the people working in the circus industry today, but circuses and sideshows have a long history of being exploitative, occasionally doing things like stealing human children to use as "freaks." It's taken longer for people to become uncomfortable with exploiting animals in the same fashion, but that's the direction that our culture is going in (and for the better). Though circuses have become more human over the years, I think there's only so much they can do without departing from their origins altogether. Things like Cirque du Soleil bear similarities but are more like a hybrid of acrobatics, dance, and old school Las Vegas showgirl routines.
 

ElaineA

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Stephen King took it a step farther yesterday on Twitter: "Ringling Bros closing down, but will be replaced by the Pennywise Traveling Terror Tour. Bring the kids! Pennywise has balloons! Hooray!"
 

BoF

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Big Cat Rescue !!!!!!!!!! :hooray::snoopy::Clap::Clap:

Little cats (and dogs) are also worthy of rescue. As soon as I get out of rehab (I broke my neck this time; release date projected 4 to 6 weeks) I plan to redeem My Master Card reward points for Kroger gift cards and donate them to Purrs and Piddy Paws, a cat rescue operation near Fort Worth. I wold provide a link, but I have only my tablet here at the rehab facility and I don't know how to do links.
 

cornflake

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Stephen King took it a step farther yesterday on Twitter: "Ringling Bros closing down, but will be replaced by the Pennywise Traveling Terror Tour. Bring the kids! Pennywise has balloons! Hooray!"

Heh heh.

Little cats (and dogs) are also worthy of rescue. As soon as I get out of rehab (I broke my neck this time; release date projected 4 to 6 weeks) I plan to redeem My Master Card reward points for Kroger gift cards and donate them to Purrs and Piddy Paws, a cat rescue operation near Fort Worth. I wold provide a link, but I have only my tablet here at the rehab facility and I don't know how to do links.

You broke your neck?? THIS TIME? Stop breaking important parts? Geez. Hope you're better soon!!
'
Also, yes, of course domestic cats (and dogs and bunnies and...), homeless in shelters, on the streets, etc., is a much larger problem. Big cats away from their natural habitat who can't really be fostered at like, Bob's house, are a difficult issue though. Everyone should go adopt any furry friend they can, and help the ones they can't, imo.

I'm for all animal rescue and sanctuary organizations and people who do it.
 
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Jason

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Bringing back memories from Water For Elephants which I just finished a few weeks ago...

Cheering one more hurrah for the closing of RB...though as many others have said, concern for the future of the animals themselves clouds my mind now.
 

RedRajah

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My marriage is "politically mixed", to put it tactfully. And a friend of ours, since he's evil, gets us as a Christmas present a single 'Tis Best charity gift card, expecting us to fight and wrangle as to who gets the donation.

We send it to the ASPCA.
 

Beachgirl

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I live about 15 minutes from Big Cat Sanctuary and wholeheartedly recommend making donations to them. They do a great job.

I never really liked the circus - was always disturbed by the animal acts and have a phobia of clowns (curse you, Stephen King!).

There have been a lot of very mixed reactions here in Sarasota since the news of Ringling's closing. Sarasota was the circus' home base, John Ringling built his mansion and museum here, and the legacy of the circus is built into this city in the street names, landmarks, attractions, and history. Many of the circus workers, both retired and active, live here. The Sailor Circus (the oldest youth circus) is still located here and plans to continue to train young people in the various circus acts, though thankfully, they don't use animals.

The general consensus among the locals who were associated with the circus is that it was time. It's an emotional blow to many of them, but they know the circus, as represented by Ringling, belonged to a bygone era.
 

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I'm relieved. I hope the animals survive and thrive as much as they can wherever they go.
I hope the employees find better, stable jobs and wonderful housing.
 

cornflake

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Update: They're done.

The fuckers apparently decided to go out with one last middle finger to their critics:

At least one news org suggests some of the animals are not going to sanctuaries, but are to be sold to european circuses.
 

Jason

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:rant::rant::Headbang::Hammer::mad:

Anyone who thinks it's ok to poke, prod, or cause pain to another creature so they can make a buck...

Gimmie that poker for 5 minutes to use on you, and let's see if you keep to your opinion...

Animal cruelty is one thing I have no patience, tolerance, or stomach for. Hope all the fuckers who subsist on income from that die a slow and painful death. Sorry, but I do
 

veinglory

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The people who work with animals in circuses have very interesting and special bonds with their animals. I think it is easy to stereotype them all as animal-abusing asshats, but there is a lot more to it than that. The time for that activity is coming to an end but it is worth marking the transition with some degree of mixed feelings.
 

Jason

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Sorry, you are absolutely right that there are those who work closely with animals who truly do love and care for them and their well-being. Those are the ones I can respect because they tried to do the best they could in a truly horrible situation. It's the abusers and torturers that drive me bat shit crazy...
 

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I knew people who would protest at every single Ringling Brothers circus that near them. Some of them were a bit nutty, but they definitely had a point about abuse. One of them I knew was also very interested in having the animals adopted to sanctuaries. But somehow I can't see a way that we can drastically improve the lives of animals in general when our species can't even take care of themselves.
 

frimble3

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Update: They're done.

The fuckers apparently decided to go out with one last middle finger to their critics:

At least one news org suggests some of the animals are not going to sanctuaries, but are to be sold to european circuses.
I'm thinking that if they can't find a proper sanctuary, or a zoo for them, better a foreign circus that's more or less a public place, that can be checked on, and who know what's involved in large animal care, than some private owner: whether it's some idiot who wants an impressive pet, ("Well, they're trained lions, they must be safe!") or one of those awful ratty mall/roadside zoos - remember the story of Ivan the gorilla? 27 years alone in a concrete enclosure. Bought as a baby to be a pet, raised with the owner's family until he was 3, then, 60 pounds and too much to handle, he was plopped into an enclosure at a mall his owner also owned. Cement and iron bars for 27 of his 50 years. He didn't stand on actual grass until public outcry and financial difficulties drove his owners to giving him up to the Atlanta zoo. Where he was re-introduced to grass, and introduced to other gorillas.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article110715997.html
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...-the-gorilla-from-tacoma-dies-at-atlanta-zoo/
In the articles about his death, there are still people giving out variations of the old 'he was a representative for his species, an ambassador' that they use to justify keeping orcas in tanks.
Generally, you can decline an ambassadorship - you don't get snatched up off the street.

If you read the articles, people seem to have very fond memories of gawking at Ivan in his cage. A childhood event - going to the mall to see the gorilla. He waved, he made faces, he also had a 'career' as Ivan the Painting Gorilla - splashes of paint on paper - it sounds to me that he was bored out of his mind.
There were obituaries, and reminiscences, and affectionate words. None of which justifies keeping a large primate in desolate solitude for half his life. (Google 'Ivan the Gorilla in his cage' for images.)
 

cornflake

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I refuse to believe, without extensive documentation, that they cannot find sanctuaries for some 50 animals, especially if they have the funds to move them overseas.

These sanctuaries are not on every block, god knows, but they exist and do everything they can to not turn animals away. We're not talking about high-kill city shelters getting a bunch of pitbulls pulling up at the door, and even they would try to get them out. My utterly overtaxed large city shelter has a daily kill list -- they do it 24 hours in advance and put it out on several types of media in the hopes other shelters will pull if the public doesn't adopt those animals in time.

Circus animals? Have a decent shot at finding space. These people are networked to each other. Someone who runs a big cat sanctuary and doesn't have space knows other people with similar operations.
 

Jason

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...
If you read the articles, people seem to have very fond memories of gawking at Ivan in his cage. A childhood event - going to the mall to see the gorilla. He waved, he made faces, he also had a 'career' as Ivan the Painting Gorilla - splashes of paint on paper - it sounds to me that he was bored out of his mind.
There were obituaries, and reminiscences, and affectionate words. None of which justifies keeping a large primate in desolate solitude for half his life. (Google 'Ivan the Gorilla in his cage' for images.)

Thanks but I just can't read the articles or watch any videos of captive animals, it tears my heart apart.

I refuse to believe, without extensive documentation, that they cannot find sanctuaries for some 50 animals, especially if they have the funds to move them overseas.
...

Totally where my line of thinking...I don't buy it.
 

LittlePinto

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Totally where my line of thinking...I don't buy it.

I expect a performance trained exotic animal is worth quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the younger, healthier animals were sold as soon as the public eye was off of the owners.