Critique the first three sentences of older novels

Status
Not open for further replies.

Curlz

cutsie-pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
382
Location
here
I find that such threads only show how somebody can discover unfamiliar writing techniques and call them "bad" just because the meaning didn't reach them :Shrug: Critiques above complained about the unfamiliar use/meaning of the word "powdered", or the need to tell which direction a room faced, or the complex structure of a sentence with several "and"s... This doesn't help expand horizons and learn new things.
 

mpalenik

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
51
Reaction score
5
Location
Washington, DC
It's very easy to say "we shouldn't critique classical novels" and I understand that this is seen as sort of the "correct" position, and I understand that it stirs up a lot of emotions, for whatever reason as well. Let me, however, try to make three points as to why either this, or something like this is useful.

1) It can help instruct some people as to whether they're using their time/energy well or not.

Let me give you an example from physics, since that's what's most familiar to me.

Einstein's 1905 paper on special relativity was brilliant and it changed the world. Literally all of modern physics has it as part of its foundation. However, would that paper have been published today if we applied modern standards for scientific articles? Absolutely not. There are several red flags that would have prevented it from even being sent out for review (as an aside, I'm not even sure if Einstein's paper on relativity was even "reviewed" in the modern sense. My guess is that it wasn't). For example, he doesn't cite a single reference, which wouldn't be allowed today.

So, lets say you want to learn how to write a scientific paper. You could say, "I'll start with the greats like Einstein", and you would learn almost everything wrong by the standards that it would take to get published today. That does not mean there's no value to reading his paper.

Similarly, lets say you want to write a great novel, and you say, "I'll start with the greats, like Hemingway or Fitzgerald." I know many people here, probably know better, but a good question to ask is how much are you learning "wrong" by today's standards, assuming you want to get published. That doesn't mean there's no value to reading Hemingway or Fitzgerald.

2. It is still worth asking if great authors did something wrong.

Let me go back to the Einstein example. His paper on GENERAL relativity is ALSO brilliant. General relativity is the second best tested theory of all time, and everything we've seen confirms its predictions. However, we also know that it MUST be wrong on some level, because it can't be quantized (owever, the point where it breaks down is at much higher energies than what we can observe). Additionally, Einstein said a lot of outright stupid things (knowing what we know today) about quantum mechanics.

So similarly, there are likely legitimate flaws (although I realize this is subjective) even in great works of literature.

3. It tells us something about ourselves.

When I first read two of the three books I posted excerpts from, I really enjoyed them and thought they were really well written. Looking back on them now, I think "man, this sounds kind of awkward." So, have I become too absorbed in my own writing style to appreciate others? Have I become too absorbed in modern literature to appreciate the greats of the past? It's worth thinking about.
 

Curlz

cutsie-pie
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
382
Location
here
...I'm not even sure ... My guess is ...

That about sums it up, doesn't it ;) Anybody can have an opinion as a reader, or even as an unsure guesser. But that doesn't help learning. Learning is taking something that's established to be good and attempting to see why it's considered good (or even "great"). One person's personal dislike doesn't help, especially when there are many, many more who found something great in that work. One person saying they don't like Hemingway doesn't help an aspiring writer learn what was so great about Hemingway. The better question would be to ask why Hemingway's writing is considered so good.

And if you'd like a comparison with scientific papers - they are all critiqued by other established scientists, not by a random person with no scientific background. Of course that doesn't stop any random person from having a personal opinion on any scientific paper. Just that such personal opinions don't help anybody who wants to learn how to science better :Shrug:
 

mpalenik

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
51
Reaction score
5
Location
Washington, DC
That about sums it up, doesn't it ;)
For this particular example, I could look up the answer. I know most of Einstein's papers weren't peer reviewed. The one that was, where a flaw was correctly pointed out, he got pretty angry (although he was perfectly willing to admit that there were flaws in his work other times, as long as no one else pointed them out).

Anybody can have an opinion as a reader, or even as an unsure guesser. But that doesn't help learning.
But, isn't that essentially what we do here?

Learning is taking something that's established to be good and attempting to see why it's considered good (or even "great"). One person's personal dislike doesn't help, especially when there are many, many more who found something great in that work. One person saying they don't like Hemingway doesn't help an aspiring writer learn what was so great about Hemingway. The better question would be to ask why Hemingway's writing is considered so good.

I think you're actually missing the point.

Another question, more along the lines of what I was getting at, is, would Hemingway's work get published today? As someone NOT involved in the publishing industry, I suspect the answer would be no, but it would be interesting to hear what others who ARE think.

We can go back to the Einstein analogy. As I pointed out before, there's value to reading Einstein's 1905 paper (just as there's value to reading Hemingway and Fitzgerald). Understanding what Einstein did in his paper is really important. However, holding it up as a model of how to write a publishable scientific paper today would be wrong. You would never even get it looked at if you wrote something like that.

It's not an either/or situation as you seem to think. It's not "either Hemingway was a great author and we should learn from him" or "we should try to figure out if there are aspects of Hemingway that wouldn't work today and that would get modern writers into trouble if they tried to emulate it". However, the thinking seems to be very heavily weighted on the former aspect. So much so that I don't think it hurts to consider the latter.

And if you'd like a comparison with scientific papers - they are all critiqued by other established scientists, not by a random person with no scientific background. Of course that doesn't stop any random person from having a personal opinion on any scientific paper. Just that such personal opinions don't help anybody who wants to learn how to science better :Shrug:

I think this analogy is flawed, because people (like me) come here specifically FOR critiques. And I believe elsewhere in this thread, someone pointed out that critiques as READERS are valid and worthwhile.

You also ignored point 3.
 
Last edited:

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
No one said we shouldn't critique classic novels. Have you ever taken an English class?
 

MisterV

Banned
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Messages
124
Reaction score
9
I don't think so. I think he's saying



Examining these with a view to showing that writing styles change would be a new thing - and a clever reminder of how much styles do change, and how some writing becomes timeless, regardless of style.

That is, more or less, what I rather meant...

That, as above, is how these threads always read to me, intended or not, as many of them have been intended to be either:

- Critters/agents are so ridiculous, I bet you/they would even find something wrong with this great literature

or

- My stuff gets criticized, but this writing that's supposed to be good isn't any better, see?

So... maybe I'm just jaded, and maybe that's not how the OP meant this thread, but it's not an unusual thing.

Actually, I feel like these types of threads get derailed because people read WAY too much into the OP and try to "figure out his true intentions" and wind up derailing the thread just fine that way.
 

cornflake

practical experience, FTW
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
16,171
Reaction score
3,734
After the third or fourth thread that starts 'what do you think of this?' followed several posts later by 'HAH, that was actually <insert bastion of literature here> so [see above my other post]!' even an innocent, wholesome flake of corn can get jaded.
 

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman
Super Moderator
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
22,454
Reaction score
4,957
Location
In chaos
I've never really liked his writing all that much, though I have to admit that if he were alive, he would probably, in the words of Woody Allen "punch me in the mouth".

I used to know the Canadian writer Morley Callaghan, who was in Spain with Hemmingway and was the only man to ever knock him down in a fight. (I don't often get the chance to tell this story so forgive me for being Mrs Name-Dropping-Boasty for a moment, please.)

Dead author does not mean dead copyright.

Very true.

I don't really see the point of this, since the sentences come from books that are already published. Wouldn't it be much more helpful critiquing sentences from fellow members asking for assistance?

I think so.
 

morngnstar

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
2,271
Reaction score
297
I don't think styles have changed to make those books obsolete. I think styles vary. Even if one person considers a piece of writing to be near perfect, another person will think it could be improved. They can both be right, because it's a matter of opinion.

That doesn't mean criticism is useless, it means it's a tool. Because a book can be criticized does not mean it shouldn't be published. Criticism is about suggestions of how things could be changed, not about grading your performance.
 

ap123

Twitching
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
5,652
Reaction score
1,746
Location
In the 212
I feel quite slow-witted here, maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet today, but I honestly don't see your point to critting the first three sentences of classic novels.

When we crit each other's first three sentences here (novels or shorts), we're doing so with an eye to what works/can work in today's market. Classic novels are still relevant, still offer much both in truth of content and learning to improve our own writing, but today's market is vastly different, even if we only look at this in terms of numbers/stats. The role of editors has changed, agents are now the norm, and both are flooded with queries and manuscripts in a way they weren't 100, 50, even 25 years ago. We can't isolate those facts and apply today's standards to yesterday's novels.

Even looking beyond the above, when we read novels, it teaches us much about the time period in which the novel was written (regardless of setting/time period of the novel), because of the choices made, what ends up on the page. Maybe we could tweak this exercise by looking at specific time periods and comparing (without anonymity) with specific goals.

:Shrug:
 

mpalenik

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
51
Reaction score
5
Location
Washington, DC
No one said we shouldn't critique classic novels. Have you ever taken an English class?

I'm not sure that I ever had an English class where they focused on the aspects of a novel that make it publishable in the current market. I'm not sure that my English classes ever questioned the idea that moving your writing style in a direction toward, say, Fitzgerald would be anything other than beneficial, but perhaps it's not. I would rather learn to write like Fitzgerald (again as an example) than someone like, say, Stephanie Meyer, but I suspect one of the two has a more desirable writing style for the current market. So, if we look at Fitzgerald from that perspective, what holds up and what doesn't? I would be surprised if your English classes covered this.


After the third or fourth thread that starts 'what do you think of this?' followed several posts later by 'HAH, that was actually <insert bastion of literature here> so [see above my other post]!' even an innocent, wholesome flake of corn can get jaded.


Well, I was explicitly trying not to do this, which is why I mentioned that these were older, published novels and gave the first critique myself. At the same time, I didn't want to list their specific names, because then you get people who feel like they're beyond criticism and everyone starts to say nice things, and I think to an extent, we've seen some of that sentiment.

If I ewanted to be tricky, I would have posted something more obscure like Benighted, which is is, IMO, a pretty underrated book from the same era.
 
Last edited:

mpalenik

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
51
Reaction score
5
Location
Washington, DC
I feel quite slow-witted here, maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet today, but I honestly don't see your point to critting the first three sentences of classic novels.

When we crit each other's first three sentences here (novels or shorts), we're doing so with an eye to what works/can work in today's market. Classic novels are still relevant, still offer much both in truth of content and learning to improve our own writing, but today's market is vastly different, even if we only look at this in terms of numbers/stats. The role of editors has changed, agents are now the norm, and both are flooded with queries and manuscripts in a way they weren't 100, 50, even 25 years ago. We can't isolate those facts and apply today's standards to yesterday's novels.

But that's the question, really. There are obviously aspects of yesterdays novels that keep people reading them and that are worth learning from. But there are obviously aspects that aren't worth learning from if you want to publish today. So, the question is, just as much as which aspects work, which aspects don't? What would you have to do differently if you were writing "A Farewell to Arms" today?

There can be a temptation--I'd be surprised if I'm the only one who as felt it at some time--to ignore modern literature because you think "there were all these really great novels written a hundred years ago". Heck, I even read a thread about someone learning to write from is beloved books of the 1890s (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that). But if you want to take away only what's useful from them, that's a very different type of reading than what you do in English class.

Furthermore, as I stated in point 3, it's a great opportunity for introspection as someone doing a critique. If you don't feel like the writing is good in a classic novel, it's worth thinking about what that means and why (in my opinion anyway. You're free to feel differently).

Anyway, if this thread is just a waste of time, you're always free to ignore it.

edit: text got duplicated somehow.
 
Last edited:

JJ Litke

People are not wearing enough hats
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
8,019
Reaction score
4,553
Location
Austin
Website
www.jjlitke.com
Another question, more along the lines of what I was getting at, is, would Hemingway's work get published today? As someone NOT involved in the publishing industry, I suspect the answer would be no, but it would be interesting to hear what others who ARE think.

This is such a bad question, though, because it ignores its own premise. If Hemingway were alive today, he'd be influenced by the times he's living in, and his writing would reflect that. He wouldn't have written now as he did then.

Unless you're talking about a time-traveling Hemingway who is just suddenly dropped into this time, a la Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. But if that's your premise, what's your point? To slam Hemingway's writing, or the current state of publishing?

After the third or fourth thread that starts 'what do you think of this?' followed several posts later by 'HAH, that was actually <insert bastion of literature here> so [see above my other post]!' even an innocent, wholesome flake of corn can get jaded.

This thread feels very much like that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.