Does anyone else think SCI-FI/FANTASY should be separate categories?

WriterDude

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I draw a distinction between the two in my head. Similiar as they are and superficial as the differences can be.

One is fantastical worlds and adventures because of tech, the other because of magic.

I wouldn't expect to find them too far apart in the book shop, but they are different, but not that different.
 

WriteMinded

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Intrigued. What do your fantasy books have if not magic or tech?
Man-eating monsters that aren't. Be careful. They lived over there in your neck of the woods in the 5th century. There might still be some lurking around.
 

WriterDude

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Man-eating monsters that aren't. Be careful. They lived over there in your neck of the woods in the 5th century. There might still be some lurking around.

Non magical monsters, round my neck of the woods? Surely not the fabled Two Headed Towny of Whitehaven, that stupifies its prey with a confounding bleat that sounds like 'marra'.
 

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They're not really separate categories at the retail level unless a store is willing to put a lot of effort into maintaining the separation and dealing with confused customers and lost sales because people are having more trouble finding their books, not less.

This is the problem in a nutshell. With so many authors who write both SF and F, it would get confusing. Not to mention books that some people think are SF and some insist are fantasy, like the Dragonriders of Pern or some of Vance's stuff (not that he's likely out at B&N anymore), or even the Star Wars novels.

Bookstores that specialize in SF and F and have huge inventories can probably separate into the two genres, even numerous subgenres. But the fact that there are certain stores that specialize in SF and F (but not just one or the other) shows that the two are closely allied. And most imprints that do SF also do fantasy.

I've noticed re the recent eruptions between different fanships within SF and F, with a complaint by some made by some that if they buy a book with a rocket ship on the cover, that they expect a fast-paced "lazerbeam pewpewpew" story and not a challenging, diverse story that deconstructs gender expectations or, eeeeeew, one that has romantic arcs. I'm wondering if SFF imprints adopting different "lines" the way romance has might make some of these people happy (assuming any of their complaints about more complex, diverse themes in SF are based on taste and not purely political).

But SFF publishers have resisted this approach thus far, and anyway, many stories blur the lines even within categories like "high fantasy" or "low fantasy" or "urban" vs "contemporary" or "space opera" or "MilSF" or "social SF" or "soft SF." Once you start splitting, where does it stop? And how do you deal with books that contain elements of more than one subgenre without becoming prescriptive?

I personally wouldn't like it if the already paltry SF and F section at our local bookstores was compartmentalized into smaller sections based on someone else's perception of where various titles belong. Though I've pretty much given up on finding much at the local B&N anyway. They don't keep even new titles by less famous authors up on their shelves, and they don't carry much back list, even for more famous ones. It's no good for discovering writers I haven't heard of before, and it's frustrating to find the most recent release in some series I haven't read but looks interesting, and the earlier books in said series aren't stocked.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Before last night, I would have said fantasy has magic and sci-fi has space ships. But I was surprised when a discussion with my son about the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek convinced me I was looking at the categories wrong.

He sees Star Wars as fantasy. It's the themes he's based that assessment on. He pointed out it was ridiculous to be fighting over resources in the future with the technology capabilities in Star Wars. The theme of heroes and villains, Universe domination, heroes with skills that let them dominate in battle after battle, that is fantasy genre regardless of the technology.

I respectfully disagree with your son (because he's definitely put a lot of intelligence and thought into his definition), as there is plenty of fantasy (that nearly everyone agrees belongs with fantasy) that isn't just (or at all) about heroes and villains having epic battles. Society, human morals, values, cultures, implications of various kinds of power or conflict granted by fantasy elements--all abound as themes in fantasy novels. And there have been plenty of "classic" SF stories that are all about technological muscle flexing and themes of good vs evil.

IMO, the difference is primarily in the feel of the setting and secondarily whether those speculative elements are something that falls completely outside the possibilities (or our perception of such, at least) of our known universe or not. Most people think Star Wars is SF because it has space ships, aliens, planets, and blaster guns, even if there's also this magical thing called The Force etc.

But this illustrates one of the problems with sub categorizing within the genre. We can't even all agree whether Star Wars is fantasy or SF, so wherever you put it, some people will be going, "WTF?"
 
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zanzjan

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I've decided on fantasy, because there is magic, despite the fact some of it is actually explainable via science, and particle physics (Higgs boson manipulation anybody?). I've had a genius friend of mine explain to me how the world would have to had been created and how the organisms would have to be in order to adapt to the electromagnetic waves going over the planet.

And then I go screwing that up by throwing in enchanting and having them make miniature suns to have nearly limitless steam power.

Now see, to me, that's exactly the sort of awesome cross-pollination between SF and F that's going on all the time and is necessary to the health of the genres as a whole. I'd worry that too sharply dividing the two into b&w discourages writers from playing un-selfconsciously in the middle gray.

I've noticed re the recent eruptions between different fanships within SF and F, with a complaint by some made by some that if they buy a book with a rocket ship on the cover, that they expect a fast-paced "lazerbeam pewpewpew" story and not a challenging, diverse story that deconstructs gender expectations

One could, perhaps uncharitably, suggest that readers who don't want books that open the universe wider are possibly reading in the wrong genre anyway :)
 

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...

But this illustrates one of the problems with sub categorizing within the genre. We can't even all agree whether Star Wars is fantasy or SF, so wherever you put it, some people will be going, "WTF?"
Undoubtedly. I would have called it sci-fi.

Out of curiosity, do you think Star Trek is sci-fi or could it also be fantasy?
 

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Undoubtedly. I would have called it sci-fi.

Out of curiosity, do you think Star Trek is sci-fi or could it also be fantasy?

Depends, are we counting John DeLance (aka The Q from The Continuum)? He was only in a few story arcs of the entire series, but played a pivotal role in the series finale for TNG...

If we count him, then yes to both.

If not, then yes to both! :)
 

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My recollection of the Q continuum was that they were a species that evolved to that point. Wouldn't their origin, being scientifically explained, still keep them within the realm of scifi?
 

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My recollection of the Q continuum was that they were a species that evolved to that point. Wouldn't their origin, being scientifically explained, still keep them within the realm of scifi?
I suppose technically that's true, but there was always this godlike mystery vibe attached to them more than a scifi one to me.
 

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My recollection of the Q continuum was that they were a species that evolved to that point. Wouldn't their origin, being scientifically explained, still keep them within the realm of scifi?

It depends on the level of plausibility and explicibility you hold your SF to. There are certainly things that evolve magical abilities in fantasy worlds. I have trouble seeing how a race could evolve the Qs' kinds of abilities via natural selection, but Star Trek plays fast and loose with that anyway, having a concept that basically tosses Darwin out the window. That's my biggest disappointment with Star Trek as a Biologist, since the central thing with evolution by natural selection is that it has no goals or end point, but otherwise there's no way to explain why most races in the galaxy look so much like us and can even interbreed. Actually the interbreeding thing makes no sense, even with directed evolution, since we can't even interbreed with our closest animal relatives here on Earth.

But I'm used to even so-called "hard" SF being really squishy and unscientific when it comes to the life sciences. Sometimes the humanoid aliens are what is needed to tell the story one wants to tell.

In any case, I'd still put Star Trek, and even Star Wars, in the SF camp, though on the so-called "softer" end of the scale (though individual Star Trek episodes do vary somewhat), because of the setting and the fact that they're both supposed to be in our own universe (though Star Wars pushes that with the long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away thing).

I really don't think there's one overarching thing that can reliably define something as SF or fantasy, since there are so many subcategories and exceptions within each. The feel of the setting is probably what most people think of as the biggest divide (modern or futuristic vs archaic). Yet there's plenty of SF with no space ships, and there's plenty of fantasy that's not set in a pre-modern world, and both vary in how rigorously (and plausibly) they try to explain things, and they both vary in the themes, characterization, and plots they embrace.
 

WriterDude

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I suppose technically that's true, but there was always this godlike mystery vibe attached to them more than a scifi one to me.

I watched the one the other day where riker was offered the power of the Q, and Q admitted to being afraid that humans would one day match and even surpass the Q. I considered that a progression more of nature and tech than mystical means.
 

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Lindsey Ellis, formerly known as the Nostalgia Chick, gave the best explanation for Fantasy versus Science Fiction. Basically, fantasy looks to the past while science fiction looks to the future.

Fantasy tries to capture the 'romance' of a by gone age. Not as it once was but how we like to remember it, Game of Thrones draws a lot of inspiration from the high middle ages. Not just its aesthetics but also its characters are drawn from the historical myths of people like Richard III and Henry VII. In Lord of The Rings, the shire is very much an idealized vision of Victorian England with Bilbo being a kind of country gentleman. Even 300 is very much a fantasy in that it takes historical events and ratchets everything up to make the heroes look almost like super-humans.

Science Fiction looks to see how events, trends and technology will effect society in the future. Isaac Asimov's I, Robot details a society as it approaches the singularity and how it is changing because of that. Walter M. Miller's A Canticle for Leibowitz shows how society could be effected by a nuclear holocaust. A lot of times, not always but often, they are reflections of the present. Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged and George Orwell's 1984 were a kind of commentary on the social developments of their day.

Now, where these two overlap is when a creator tries to capture the romance of the past in the future. The two best known examples are probably Star Wars and Warhammer: 40,000. One commentator talked about how warfare in Star Wars hasn't really changed. Sure there is advanced technology but it is really just a space age version of what we have today. X-wings and Tie-fighters dog-fight just like jet fighters, on Hoth the rebels fight from trenches while the walkers are deployed almost like giant tanks. In Warhammer, technology has advanced but society has went backwards assuming a very medieval mentality. The Emperium of Man is a strict autocracy that worships its monarch like a god and sees their advanced machines like a kind of magic.
 

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Lindsey Ellis, formerly known as the Nostalgia Chick, gave the best explanation for Fantasy versus Science Fiction. Basically, fantasy looks to the past while science fiction looks to the future.

Fantasy tries to capture the 'romance' of a by gone age.

Uh...no. I can't buy that premise at all. Urban fantasy doesn't do that; it's firmly rooted in the present day. And I don't even agree that Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire's appeal come from nostalgia, because if they did, then fantasy fans would also be really into historical romance, etc.

To my mind, fantasy's appeal has always been about wanting to exist alongside the fantastic. Because history has tales of magic and magical creatures, many stories were set in analogues of the past, but I think the magic and magical creatures were a far bigger draw than the sword-swinging ever was.
 

phantom000

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Uh...no. I can't buy that premise at all. Urban fantasy doesn't do that; it's firmly rooted in the present day. And I don't even agree that Lord of the Rings or A Song of Ice and Fire's appeal come from nostalgia, because if they did, then fantasy fans would also be really into historical romance, etc.

How do you know they aren't? I don't claim to be an expert and i will admit there is all kinds of variety that is not easily categorized, assuming it even can be. However, it seems to me that a lot of fantasy is one small step from a historical romance. Take the film Dragonheart about the only thing that makes it fantasy is the fact that there is a dragon in it, otherwise it becomes a romantic medieval adventure. Another film called Cutthroat Island which is very much a historical romance but it is, basically, Pirates of the Caribbean without the zombie pirates or the magic compass.

There are exceptions I will grant you, there always are, but they seem to be few and far between with the bulk of fantasy stories drawing influence from historical romance. There is a line between the two but it seems kinda blurry to me.
 

jjdebenedictis

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How do you know they aren't? I don't claim to be an expert and i will admit there is all kinds of variety that is not easily categorized, assuming it even can be. However, it seems to me that a lot of fantasy is one small step from a historical romance. Take the film Dragonheart about the only thing that makes it fantasy is the fact that there is a dragon in it, otherwise it becomes a romantic medieval adventure. Another film called Cutthroat Island which is very much a historical romance but it is, basically, Pirates of the Caribbean without the zombie pirates or the magic compass.

There are exceptions I will grant you, there always are, but they seem to be few and far between with the bulk of fantasy stories drawing influence from historical romance. There is a line between the two but it seems kinda blurry to me.

There are undoubtedly many fantasy fans who like historical romance too, but if it was the majority, then historical romance would be shelved beside fantasy.

Which is kinda where the thread started. The bookstores know what they're doing, and they don't do that.

Also, I read fantasy and am related to two more much-more-voracious fantasy readers and none of us care a bit about reading anything real, ew, gross. ;)