Audit The Vote

raburrell

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This Vox articlee: The election probably wasn't hacked, but Clinton should request recounts just in case changed my mind about the advisability of doing an audit. (Up until now, the math made me skeptical that it'd be worth the firestorm). But, as the author points out:

The second and more serious objection is that frivolous recount requests could compromise public faith in the election results. Throughout the campaign, Hillary Clinton stressed the importance of accepting the results of the election. Skeptics worry that if Clinton were to request recounts without any tangible evidence that the original count was wrong, it could legitimize conspiracy theories and ultimately undermine confidence in the election result — and the democratic process more generally.
But in the era of hackable voting systems, that gets things precisely backward.
Foreign governments tampering with US voting machines is a real threat. And if someone carried out a sophisticated attack on America’s voting systems, there might not be any obvious signs other than the changed outcome. So if no one manually checks to verify that the electronic results were accurate, it’s totally rational for the public to doubt the integrity of the results.
The solution is to make recounts (or equally reliable but much more affordable statistical audits) a routine part of the vote-counting process. If election officials audit the results of every election, then the decision to audit a particular election won’t give credence to conspiracy theorists, and it will bolster rather than undermine public confidence.


He also goes on to say it'd make the idea of a foreign power hacking the results less attractive, if this kind of security check was an expected part of the process rather than just something we graveyard-whistle about.

So, I'll be making some phone calls.
 

Cyia

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According to Twitter-links, Jill Stein is going to file for a recount in three states:

Former Green Party presidential nominee Jill Stein intends to file for a recount in three states.

She plans to request a recount in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, her campaign said in a statement Wednesday.


“After a divisive and painful presidential race, reported hacks into voter and party databases and individual email accounts were causing many [Americans] to wonder if our election results are reliable," Stein said in the statement. "These concerns need to be investigated before the 2016 presidential election is certified.”


Stein's campaign claimed that some of the machines used in Wisconsin were banned in California due to vulnerability to hacking.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ill-stein-to-file-for-recount-in-three-states
 

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According to Twitter-links, Jill Stein is going to file for a recount in three states:



http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ill-stein-to-file-for-recount-in-three-states

I'm not fond of Stein at all, but if successful, this could be one useful thing she does for this election.


This Vox articlee: The election probably wasn't hacked, but Clinton should request recounts just in case changed my mind about the advisability of doing an audit. (Up until now, the math made me skeptical that it'd be worth the firestorm). But, as the author points out:



He also goes on to say it'd make the idea of a foreign power hacking the results less attractive, if this kind of security check was an expected part of the process rather than just something we graveyard-whistle about.

So, I'll be making some phone calls. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Thanks for posting that. I hadn't considered an audit being a permanent part of the election process, but I'm very much in favor of the idea.
 

Chasing the Horizon

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According to Twitter-links, Jill Stein is going to file for a recount in three states:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...ill-stein-to-file-for-recount-in-three-states
I just want to note that since that article was published less than 5 hours ago, Jill Stein's fundraising campaign has raised over $900,000 for the recount. I hope she succeeds in actually getting the recounts, but I'm very sadly not sure it will help much here in Pennsylvania, as the majority of our districts, including my own, used electronic voting machines which leave no paper trail that can be verified. Though there are probably other ways to hunt for discrepancies.

My preference would be to see computers removed from elections completely*, but if we can't have that, Raburrell's suggestion of automatic audits is an essential protection.

*This may sound drastic or paranoid, but it's really just logic. If all voting is done and counted by hand or on purely mechanical (non-computerized) machines, anyone trying to rig an election MUST have physical access to the ballots and/or machines. To affect the results of a national election you'd have to involve so many individual people that no one could possibly ever get away with it.
 

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but I'm very sadly not sure it will help much here in Pennsylvania, as the majority of our districts, including my own, used electronic voting machines which leave no paper trail that can be verified. Though there are probably other ways to hunt for discrepancies.

My preference would be to see computers removed from elections completely*, but if we can't have that, Raburrell's suggestion of automatic audits is an essential protection.

Purely electronic voting machines make me twitchy, but so do purely paper. I like the states where the electronic machines print out a clear copy of the selections for the voter to double check and approve so votes are readily available and legible for double checking if needed.
 
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regdog

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It's funded, they are now raising money to cover the full legal cost.
 

be frank

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According to the NY Times, it's already too late for a recount in Pennsylvania, and soon will be in Michigan and Wisconsin too. :(

Time may have already run out. Pennsylvania allows individual voters to petition for a recount, but the deadline was Sunday, said Wanda Murren, a spokeswoman for the Pennsylvania Department of State. A candidate can also contest an election in court, and the deadline is Monday.

Michigan and Wisconsin have not reached their deadlines for seeking a recount, but they will in days. So far, Mrs. Clinton has not requested any action, said Reid Magney, a spokesman for the Wisconsin Elections Commission.


eta: Ah. So I gather even though it's too late for the general public, Jill Stein can still challenge the result as she was a candidate? (Assuming she raises the necessary funds and does it quickly enough).
 
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Gregg

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Nothing will change the result of the election, IMO. Trump has 290 electoral votes without Michigan. Both the Wisconsin and Pennsylvania results would have to be reversed for Clinton to win. I would guess that it is harder to get the actual recount done going through the court system, so a recount in PA is not a sure thing.
In Wisconsin Trump got about the same number of votes that Romney got in 2012 and less than Bush in 2004. But the state has been trending Republican in recent years. The state government is solidly GOP and I think Ron Johnson's surge in the final weeks to beat Feingold in the Senate race helped Trump.
Clinton never came to Wisconsin to ask for votes -there seemed to be little enthusiasm for her here.
 

raburrell

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I don't expect the vote to flip, but I'm less certain we won't find evidence of front-end hacking, or at least of vulnerabilities to it. If, by some chance, it did happen actually happen, buckle up.

As far as Wisconsin goes, given that pre-election estimates were that as many as 300,000 people would not be able to obtain the necessary ID to vote, and given that the current margin is around 13,000 votes, I think the possibility that this was a successful case of Republican efforts at vote suppression is as likely as the idea that it was about lack of excitement for Clinton. I don't think there's any easy way to quantify how many of those 300,000 would have voted, but I'd be cautious claiming a narrative either way.
 

regdog

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According to her website


The Green Party Platform calls for "publicly-owned, open source voting equipment and deploy it across the nation to ensure high national standards, performance, transparency and accountability; use verifiable paper ballots; and institute mandatory automatic random precinct recounts to ensure a high level of accuracy in election results."

Election integrity experts have independently identified Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin as states where "statistical anomalies" raised concerns. Our effort to recount votes in those states is not intended to help Hillary Clinton.


These recounts are part of an election integrity movement to attempt to shine a light on just how untrustworthy the U.S. election system is.


Link
 

Gregg

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Why don't they include Minnesota? Clinton was ahead in the polls by 9-10 points and won by only 1.5%. But if you add the NeverTrumper's candidate, Evan McMullin, to Trump's total, she loses by about 0.3%. I doubt that any McMullin voters would have voted for Clinton if he wasn't on the ballot.
 

Gregg

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I'm sure there were some people in Minnesota who voted for Jill Stein who would have voted for Clinton otherwise.
no doubt about that. Gary Johnson voters too, but I think they would be more evenly split between Clinton and Trump. McMullin was put up by very conservative Republicans who opposed Trump and most, if not all, would have supported any Republican other than Trump.

Still, the polls missed the actual vote by a huge margin.
 

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What I find most interesting about this, is that while some Trump supporters on my Facebook feed are screaming about a civil war if the election results are overturned, I have just as many who are already so upset about Trump already doubling-back on his promises that they say they don't care if the election results change or are called into dispute.
 

cornflake

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Why is Jill Stein doing this?

She may be nuts, with the vaccines maybe causing autism and the quantitative easing to eliminate personal debt, but she's not 'let's allow Trump to be president' crazy.
 

Gregg

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What I find most interesting about this, is that while some Trump supporters on my Facebook feed are screaming about a civil war if the election results are overturned, I have just as many who are already so upset about Trump already doubling-back on his promises that they say they don't care if the election results change or are called into dispute.
One of the main argument that the NeverTrump people had is that Trump is unpredictable and untrustworthy. Voting for him was always a risk, but enough people in the right places felt it was a risk worth taking.
Evidence, IMO, that Clinton lost the election more than Trump won it. She ran a very poor campaign.
 

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Clinton lost the election more than Trump won it. She ran a very poor campaign.

Yup. Or, put otherwise, a lot of people voted against Clinton rather than voting for Trump. Enough so that he "won" by a margin of more less than -2,000,000 votes.

A hell of a lot of people in other countries are now laughing, with justification, at our U.S.ers "democratic" election process.

caw
 
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kaitie

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She may be nuts, with the vaccines maybe causing autism and the quantitative easing to eliminate personal debt, but she's not 'let's allow Trump to be president' crazy.

I'm under the impression that she doesn't actually think vaccines cause autism and has said before that she doesn't believe it, but was trying to pander and it came across as wishy-washy on the topic. She's not the best panderer.

I could be wrong, but it was one of the things I had heard about her initially that made me say I couldn't support her, and then when I looked into it more she hadn't actually said that.
 

kaitie

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Yup. Or, put otherwise, a lot of people voted against Clinton rather than voting for Trump. Enough so that he "won" by a margin of more less than -2,000,000 votes.

A hell of a lot of people in other countries are now laughing, with justification, at our U.S.ers "democratic" election process.

caw

I'm still honestly shocked that so many people viewed Trump as the better of those alternatives. I say this as someone who really, really, really reaaaaaally dislikes Clinton. Yet I just can't see the comparison. To me they aren't even in the same league of evil bad guy.

The only people I know who voted Trump against Clinton were doing so because of things like "she's a murderer," and rape<murder. Which is just insane, really, because it's completely untrue. I mean, there are so many reasons to hate Trump based on things we have outright proof that he has done, often admitted to by himself in his own words, and yet so many people despise Clinton for what are essentially conspiracy theories with no proof. :/ At least my reasons for disliking her have legit merit and are based on her actions and words and policies.
 

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Actually, looking at Clinton's campaign, I think she did a lot of things right. The DNC went off without a hitch. She handled the debates beautifully and did the things democratic candidates are supposed to do to win. Overall, her strategy appeared to be working. She was solidly ahead in the polls for most of it, and in spite of all the hand wringing about how out of touch the Democrats are with working-class America, there was no real reason to believe the polls and the projections about who the likely voters were weren't going to be as accurate in 2008 and 2012. There was all that crap with the e-mails, but that die was cast already.

It's all 20-20 hindsight now, but Trump was the one who was screwing up right left and center, breaking every rule of campaigning and common decency. Who would have thought a man who would say one thing one day and another the next, who lied openly and unrepentantly, who threw tantrums on social media, who belittled disabled people, who said people from Mexico were rapists and criminals, who wants to resurrect internment camps for Muslim immigrants, who professed admiration for a man as disgusting as Putin, who bragged about sexual assault, who called women pigs and dogs and worse (and is very open about his opinion that women who aren't young and beautiful have no value), who locked horns with an extremely popular Pope, who has pretty much insulted everyone who wasn't just like him, would squeak out a victory?

I don't blame Clinton and the other dems for their overconfidence. This whole election has been surreal, like one of those dreams that starts out weird and gradually morphs into a genuine nightmare. I've always had this fear that this could happen at the back of my mind, because I know logically that American exceptionalism is silly, and there's no reason why an unqualified, populist demagogue can't win the vote here.

But there were lots of logical reasons to think Trump would go down, go down big, even, and my heart wanted to believe he would too. I thought better of people, and I'm not going to join the Greek chorus of Dems beating themselves for that.

People say Trump won because the white people in those red states (and the red parts of those swing states that narrowly broke for him in the end) are desperate, clutching at straws and angry at both parties. I'm sure this is true (though I still think that whole "anti PC" thing so many of his supporters say they liked about him is a dogwhistle for racism etc.)

But what has me gobsmacked is that these people didn't pick one of their own to be their champion. They chose a billionaire from NYC who didn't even make his own fortune (they're so big on bootstrapping, yet Trump was born rich). And they picked one who's made it very clear his presidency will be all about making his own businesses as profitable as possible and getting revenge on anyone who stood against him. This man is their populist champion who will make America work for the little guy again? That makes NO sense at all.

At least the angry, white, Christian voters of the late 19th century picked William Jennings Bryan as their champion, not one of the robber barons who was fleecing them.
 
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princessvessna

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As a McMullin voter here in Utah (which also had wacky polls going on), if I HAD to vote just between Clinton and Trump...it would have been Clinton. I really struggled with voting at all until he got into it. I hoped he would at least take Utah (more likely than Clinton) and help block Trump too. I also like how reasonable he is.
 

kaitie

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Actually, looking at Clinton's campaign, I think she did a lot of things right. The DNC went off without a hitch. She handled the debates beautifully and did the things democratic candidates are supposed to do to win. Overall, her strategy appeared to be working. She was solidly ahead in the polls for most of it, and in spite of all the hand wringing about how out of touch the Democrats are with working-class America, there was no real reason to believe the polls and the projections about who the likely voters were weren't going to be as accurate in 2008 and 2012. There was all that crap with the e-mails, but that die was cast already.

It's all 20-20 hindsight now, but Trump was the one who was screwing up right left and center, breaking every rule of campaigning and common decency. Who would have thought a man who would say one thing one day and another the next, who lied openly and unrepentantly, who threw tantrums on social media, who belittled disabled people, who said people from Mexico were rapists and criminals, who wants to resurrect internment camps for Muslim immigrants, who professed admiration for a man as disgusting as Putin, who bragged about sexual assault, who called women pigs and dogs and worse (and is very open about his opinion that women who aren't young and beautiful have no value), who locked horns with an extremely popular Pope, who has pretty much insulted everyone who wasn't just like him, would squeak out a victory?

I don't blame Clinton and the other dems for their overconfidence. This whole election has been surreal, like one of those dreams that starts out weird and gradually morphs into a genuine nightmare. I've always had this fear that this could happen at the back of my mind, because I know logically that American exceptionalism is silly, and there's no reason why an unqualified, populist demagogue can't win the vote here.

But there were lots of logical reasons to think Trump would go down, go down big, even, and my heart wanted to believe he would too. I thought better of people, and I'm not going to join the Greek chorus of Dems beating themselves for that.

People say Trump won because the white people in those red states (and the red parts of those swing states that narrowly broke for him in the end) are desperate, clutching at straws and angry at both parties. I'm sure this is true (though I still think that whole "anti PC" thing so many of his supporters say they liked about him is a dogwhistle for racism etc.)

But what has me gobsmacked is that these people didn't pick one of their own to be their champion. They chose a billionaire from NYC who didn't even make his own fortune (they're so big on bootstrapping, yet Trump was born rich). And they picked one who's made it very clear his presidency will be all about making his own businesses as profitable as possible and getting revenge on anyone who stood against him. This man is their populist champion who will make America work for the little guy again? That makes NO sense at all.

At least the angry, white, Christian voters of the late 19th century picked William Jennings Bryan as their champion, not one of the robber barons who was fleecing them.

I've had a lot of discussions online recently about why we think Trump was able to get as many votes as he did. As heartbroken as I was because I feel that hate won, which I truly didn't think should be possible in this country (I still feel very, very strongly that there was absolutely zero reason anyone should have voted for him based on the misogynistic, racist, divisive, etc. things that he said, particularly when added to his nuclear proliferation statements, lack of experience, tendency to do things like intentionally declare bankruptcy to avoid paying people, the court cases against him, etc. etc. Zero).

I think that a lot of people weren't voting for him because he's anti-PC (which bothers me because being PC is, in essence, just being respectful of others), but because they either felt that the democrats were ignoring their situation while Trump was promising things like keeping jobs, fixing the economy and so on, and because they had to explain away the cognitive dissonance of a candidate who was so flawed and against their morals.

Now, the former situation I can understand, even if I find it an incredibly flawed logic. Trump has never shown any concern for the poor and the experts have outright said that his policy suggestions would not only harm the economy, increase the national debt, and dis-proportionally harm the poor. But I can understand how having someone say, "I'll do this," could be appealing.

I think the other issue is potentially the one that harmed Hillary more than anything else. This is my theory and obviously isn't scientific. It's based on my experiences and observations. I grew up in the Bible Belt. For many people in that area, the republican party is quite literally the party of God, and the democrats are, again quite literally, influenced by Satan. Yes, there are democrats in that area, but for many of the republicans, there is an assumption that their party is upstanding and has the moral high ground, particularly as more recently the republican party has moved further and further right and courted the Evangelical vote. I grew up hearing from honestly everyone around me, not simply my family, that democrats were evil, should be prayed for, and voting for democrats was a sin.

Donald Trump is the most unethical, immoral, anti-family values candidate who has probably ever run for president, at least in recent years, by the standards of these same people. Someone who has been divorced numerous times, cheated on his wife and bragged about it, been in favor of abortion rights, doesn't attend church (or even know enough about the Bible to know how to properly say the names of the books), etc. This is without looking at the fraud, rape, sexual assault accusations, etc., but those should also have played a factor in decision making.

So you have your party, which is the party of God and the other party is being influenced by the devil and voting for them is a sin, but your candidate is an immoral person. What do you do? How do you vote? How can you reconcile those facts? For some people, they were able to look past everything and vote for Hillary, or vote third party. But I've heard an awful lot of really surprising explanations for why Trump should be supported in spite of everything. I had family members trying to convince me that I should vote for Trump because even though he was a flawed person, we should still vote for the party "God would want you to vote for." That the party line mattered more than the person in charge of it. That the negative stuff about Trump was just a media campaign to destroy him. That Trump was a Christian, but he was "flawed" and still learning to be a good Christian. That even though he was a bad person, if we just prayed for him he'd make the right choices. Etc.

There really wasn't anything to back any of these arguments that I heard. There was no reason to expect that Trump is a Christian or holds any Christian values, or that he even really cares about anyone else, or that he would change once in office (after 70 years?), or that the media was trying to destroy him--particularly considering you just had to look at his own words.

I couldn't say how many people this was a factor for, but I do definitely think that a lot of republican voters were finding ways to justify voting for Trump that weren't always logical to get around the cognitive dissonance that voting for him created. I think that having Hillary on the other side, a person that for many is the epitome of all that is wrong with the democrats/establishment made it even harder. I'm honestly angry at the people I know who voted for Trump by justifying his flaws, particularly when the ones I know where also the ones trying to take the moral high ground, but I do believe that this contingent made a big difference for him, and I think it speaks to just how flawed our two-party system at this point in time is.

If you look at maps from thirty or forty years ago, you can see that many voters were willing to switch sides as they felt right. That just doesn't really happen as much anymore. There are many republicans who will never vote for a democrat because of the reasons outlined above, and that has increased in recent years as the republican party has taken on the role of the moral party for the religious right and our political divisiveness in general has increased. I'm sure that there are democrats who look at the current place of the republican party and say that they would never vote for a republican.

I had a great graphic awhile back that I can't find right now that actually showed how, over time, we have become less a compromising country, and become more politically divided instead. I honestly believe that it's unsustainable. The more partisan we become as a country, the more difficult it is going to be to have a functional government or to vote based on who the best candidate is. Trump was certainly not the best candidate in this case. There has yet to be a single argument that I've heard to explain why he was that would stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny or fact-checking--other than "he's not Hillary", which goes right back to the problem, IMO.

How many people voted for someone they thought was best? And how many voted because they were voting against the other person? We need to change the system to give us a way of being able to vote for candidates that we believe are best, and we need to find a way to come to the center and value compromise again and get beyond this ridiculous notion that everyone on the other side is wrong/evil/racist, blah blah blah. Personally, I think getting rid of the electoral college would be a great start, but more than that, I think having rollover voting would be an even better start.

Sorry for the book. This turned out much longer than I anticipated, but it's just my take on the situation. I want to find ways that we can improve this so it doesn't keep happening. I'm concerned that a Trump presidency is going to make things worse, and honestly I think it probably should because he has been so extreme that he shouldn't be allowed to get things done. He campaigned as the tea party on steroids. But maybe that in and of itself will bring people back to the center. Maybe people will start to see value in third parties, in changing our system. I don't know that it will. I honestly have a feeling that in a few months, most people will just accept the way things are until the next election when everyone complains about how awful the system is again, but I'd rather not forget, and I'd rather find ways to work toward making things better if it's possible.
 

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I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine who was going on and on about "If everyone just voted third-party, it would fix everything!"

I tried to tell them that it's not the circular argument that "People won't vote third-party because it won't win, and third-party won't win because people won't vote for them." It's more that a lot of people are so completely entrenched in the parties as they are that even the idea for voting outside of it is anathema to them. Like Kaitie said, they have the idea that their party is good, other parties are evil. But I just wanted to share that thought here, no sense in going into how the rest of that conversation went.

As to the reasons of my own family, all of whom voted for Trump. The blame comes down to my Uncle who is a Republican along the lines of "Republicans are great! Democrats and Liberals are evil!" and his influence on everyone else who did no research, watched no debates, and heard no other comments on things outside of the 5'o'clock news and my uncle's ranting.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I actually had a conversation with a friend of mine who was going on and on about "If everyone just voted third-party, it would fix everything!"

I tried to tell them that it's not the circular argument that "People won't vote third-party because it won't win, and third-party won't win because people won't vote for them." It's more that a lot of people are so completely entrenched in the parties as they are that even the idea for voting outside of it is anathema to them.

Or that we don't actually like the other candidates. I was glad that Gary Johnson didn't get 5%, because I actually dislike the Libertarian party far more than I dislike the Republican party. I had a friend who defended Gary Johnson by saying, "he might be great." Uh, yeah, you could say that about literally anybody who has not been President before. If I disagree with someone on every issue that matters to me, I'm not voting for him. I have voted Green Party in the past, and some Green Party candidates have won local elections. But I think Jill Stein is a dreadful candidate, and I would never vote for her.

If EVERYONE voted third party, would a third party candidate win? Yes. Would anything be any better? Doubtful.