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Thread: Reboot

  1. #51
    please distract me mccardey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roxxsmom View Post
    That's how I'm going to try and handle things, I think.
    Me, too. And ask questions, instead of putting my already-decided pov up as the answer.

    That was how P&CE used to operate back when I first came in. I remember once - some years ago, when I was new here - saying quite blithely that I didn't think privilege was such a big deal. I didn't change my mind about that by being shouted down - I changed my mind because people shared examples of how my privilege played out for them.
    Last edited by mccardey; 11-15-2016 at 03:47 AM.

  2. #52
    Bright and Early for the Daily Race Chrissy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrealana View Post
    Thank you for re-opening it. I feel the need to have relevant discussions, which just isn't possible anywhere else I go.

    At work, I risk alienating people I need to face daily.
    On FB, it's all personal.
    Twitter is a cesspool and I can't fully express myself in 140 characters.

    I can't be the only one who really needed this place.

    I've always tried to keep it civil, though sometimes my emotions get the best of me. I'll do my best to keep that in check and stick to the actual things I'm doing and supporting.
    This is me, too. And I will do my best to follow the new protocol.

    Some people really do have no other place, no other people. Once upon a time, I wrote a silly book, went to a writing class, got a reference to AW, and tripped over P&CE, where my ingrained-from-childhood beliefs were challenged with gentle and intelligent arguments. Over the last 4 or 5 years, this forum has made me a more thoughtful and skeptical person. And it sure as hell got me out of the echo chamber of a small county that lit up red on the map about 30 seconds after the polls closed on November 8th.

    I am so pleased this subforum is back, and I can respect the alterations. I won't go on about how I was so shell shocked when Trump won and P&CE was gone and I went stumbling around Facebook looking for a real dialogue like a sorry sad sack.
    Last edited by Chrissy; 11-15-2016 at 05:06 AM.

  3. #53
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    Once upon a time, I wrote a silly book, went to a writing class, got a reference to AW, and tripped over P&CE, where my ingrained-from-childhood beliefs were challenged with gentle and intelligent arguments. Over the last 4 or 5 years, this forum has made me a more thoughtful and skeptical person.
    Very few people are able to change those ingrained beliefs no matter what arguments are presented to them in whatever manner. I remember well when you first joined AW. I disagreed with you on many things, and we had some heated discussions, but I always felt you had an open mind.

    I've got to give you a shout out – you have really impressed me with your ability to think critically and apply that thinking to whatever conclusions you have arrived at.

    Pretty sure we still disagree on a bunch of stuff, but I have no problem with that.
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  4. #54
    Treguna Makoidees Trecorum SadisDee raburrell's Avatar
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    Just popping in to say hi to people I consider old friends, and to say thank you to Mac & Medi for being willing to try this reboot.
    I'm still having trouble coming up with coherent thoughts in many ways, so for now, I'm going to leave it at that.
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  5. #55
    Bright and Early for the Daily Race Chrissy's Avatar
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    Thank you so much for that, rugcat.... coming from you, it means a whole freaking lot. You are one of my favorite voices and I'm so glad you're here.

    Oh crap, this is a sticky. It's PERMANENT. How shall I ever argue with you again???

  6. #56
    AW's resident Velociraptor ShaunHorton's Avatar
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    I easily understood the reasons to close P&CE, but I will confess it made me sad. This is where I came to find understanding on complicated issues, and to help keep up on current events, as I'm not big on tv, and avoid watching the national news whenever possible. (I think watching the nightly news causes depression, personally.)

    I'm glad this is back in a new incarnation.
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  7. #57
    MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter AW Moderator Ari Meermans's Avatar
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    My situation is like yours, Shaun; I avoid TV news. Actually, I don't even need the box in the house, but that's another story. I was glad, though, when Mac closed P & CE. In the past, I would try to participate occasionally only to leave disheartened when threads disintegrated because of silencing behaviors. I even had a sticky note at the top of my monitor: Stay OUT of P & CE!!!

    When Mac opened this thread and announced the reboot I was skeptical. You see, I had gone trawling through the early years of the room and saw how very many times she has tried to turn the room around to more thoughtful and inclusive discourse. Whatever the reason, the time seems to be right today. Here and in other threads I am seeing thoughtful and inclusive responses. Now I think Mac is on to something. Yes.
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  8. #58
    Life is good Gregg's Avatar
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    As part of a minority group here (a rare conservative) I'm happy for the reboot. Generally I've been treated with respect by those with opposing political views. Sometimes we even surprised ourselves by agreeing with each other.
    but I have to admit there were times I just threw up my hands and left for a while when discussion vanished and there was little except either repetitive love for the left or dislike for the right.
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  9. #59
    Domestic extremist darkprincealain's Avatar
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    I am glad ACE & H is reopened. I tried to contribute as much as I could to the good news thread.
    And it's nice to have a direction to go with the bad news that seems more productive. Unfortunately, I've found a lot of the recent TV news coverage problematic, so sometimes it's easier to read about it here, though I was not shocked about the closure.

    I don't know, I feel like I'm rambling. Anyway I was always a lurker who delurks now and again. I don't know that that will change, but I'll comply as best as possible with any new guidelines or rules.
    Last edited by darkprincealain; 11-15-2016 at 07:41 AM. Reason: typos
    Quote Originally Posted by Introversion
    All true. But U.S. debates (and elections) are being judged by average people who are often seriously misinformed on important issues, and that vote for people they'd "like to have a beer with". The mainstream media is happy if the circus entertains, and so it goes.
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  10. #60
    Twitching ap123's Avatar
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    I am so very, very glad to see this here. I was never a regular poster on P&CE, but always a regular reader. I like this idea for the new angle. Thank you!
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  11. #61
    Handsome servant of a redhead Gilroy Cullen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacAllister View Post
    My observation of how the media (including WaPo, NYTimes, and other big sites, not just FB political memes, not just Huffpo, DailyKos, or Angrypatriot.com) handled this whole last year and a half has me feeling like they've played us all for clickbait suckers, and I'm good and mad about that.
    I'm willing to admit, I didn't walk into this room much previously. Each excursion lead to bad thoughts, and ... well, anyway. A lot of what I noticed was single link articles, maybe to HuffPo, WaPo, or NYTimes. (I admit to being guilty of that when I did try to start discussions.) Too often, and this happens on Facebook feeds too, a source won't expect a person to verify with a second source. They want you to go based on their data only. But many of these sources that used to be "trusted," aren't any more.

    So maybe I'm trying to suggest that links to articles, especially things that could lead to contentious conversations, have to offer a second source, or more, as verification? From the original poster rather than having others in the thread pull it up...

    Just thinking out loud. Don't mind me.
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  12. #62
    Are you gonna finish that bacon? Vince524's Avatar
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    I've been coming in and out of this forum for the last few days, unsure of exactly what to say or how to say it.

    I'll be honest, I felt a little hurt that the forum was closed right after the election. Although I respected that it was Mac's choice to make, I didn't know what to make of it, or of the rebranding. I'm not sure how it's quite different here.

    I'll also add my voice to those who didn't like that certain names were called out personally. Yeah, they have a pattern. Everyone does, myself included. Some may find my particular pattern annoying or disruptive, while others fine me thoughtful and funny. Same goes with everyone else.

    I hold great respect for the people I've met in this forum, even and in some cases especially, when their ones I disagree with.

    Like Gregg, sometimes I also feel like the odd one out, since I'm not center left, but that's okay. I never wanted an echo chamber, but perhaps what the place needs is a greater variety of voices.

    I don't pretend to have the answers. I am glad the forum is back, and of course it needs to be said that AW has so much more to offer than just political discussion. So I guess we'll see what happens from here.

  13. #63
    Keep Calm & Love a Black Woman nighttimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince524 View Post
    I've been coming in and out of this forum for the last few days, unsure of exactly what to say or how to say it.

    I'll be honest, I felt a little hurt that the forum was closed right after the election. Although I respected that it was Mac's choice to make, I didn't know what to make of it, or of the rebranding. I'm not sure how it's quite different here.

    I'll also add my voice to those who didn't like that certain names were called out personally. Yeah, they have a pattern. Everyone does, myself included. Some may find my particular pattern annoying or disruptive, while others fine me thoughtful and funny. Same goes with everyone else.

    I hold great respect for the people I've met in this forum, even and in some cases especially, when their ones I disagree with.

    Like Gregg, sometimes I also feel like the odd one out, since I'm not center left, but that's okay. I never wanted an echo chamber, but perhaps what the place needs is a greater variety of voices.

    I don't pretend to have the answers. I am glad the forum is back, and of course it needs to be said that AW has so much more to offer than just political discussion. So I guess we'll see what happens from here.
    I'm going to second most of Vince's sentiments.

    Something happened last week that not only was a seismic shock to the country, but to Absolute Write's Politics and Current Events forum. It was like being in the middle of your dinner at a restaurant and the manager busts in telling everybody to leave and the waitresses start clearing the table and turning out the lights. I was equal parts confused by the shutdown and pissed off by it.

    It's nice to have even a modified version of P&CE, but I don't quite know what to do with it. Everybody needed a place to express their feelings about the election, but they needed it last week. People wanted to vent, to rage, to cry a little, to express their fear and confusion and sadness or even their happiness, and they did not have that outlet.

    What I would have liked to see is an announcement that went something like, "Hey folks, it's been a long, bruising election and now would be a good time to repurpose this forum so we're going to shut it down and relaunch it in a few weeks." I believe that would have gone a long way in dispelling some of the tentativeness of how best to proceed in Trump Nation.

    Maybe it's the hangover from the ugly after effects of a horrid election, but I'm not feeling too comfortable about the current state of Absolute Write. We have a spanking new forum where everybody is walking around on eggshells trying to figure out what is in bounds and what's not.

    I also agree with Vince on the naming of names. It made me uncomfortable, and I'm sure it had the same effect on those named.

    Going forward, I'm not sure of this new direction or how exactly to get there, but I do know something was broken last week. It wasn't simply another presidential election where we congratulate the winner and forget the loser.

    This felt different. This felt like the ground had shifted under our feet in a seismic event and while everything looked normal, you could feel it wasn't. It was like going to bed in your home and waking up thousands of miles away in another time and place.

    If you supported Donald Trump and you're having a hard time figuring outd so many others refuse to acknowledge him as my president, all I can tell you is Trump spent the past eight years defaming and denying Barack Obama's legitimacy.

    Perhaps as time and the rage dissipates because anger like fire, feeds on itself if there's nothing left to burn. Eventually I will make my way to begrudging acceptance of a reality I cannot change, but even then I'll remain committed to being part of the resistance to Trumpism in hopes it fuel a revolt against it.

    When President Obama says we have to accept the president-elect and Thomas Friedman to Oprah to Dave Chapelle say give the guy a chance, I reply, I'd like to but I can't because I roll with Brother Frederick Douglass when he said:

    “Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are people who want crops without ploughing the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning; they want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. The struggle may be a moral one, or it may be a physical one, or it may be both. But it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.”

    We've been conditioned to fear challenging the status quo and to look askance at the dissident for their defiance. We've been led to believe if we sit down, shut up and don't speak up, we'll be safe. Silence will not save you. Speaking up for what you believe won't keep you safe, but it will keep you free.

    What could be more American than that?
    Or to put it another way, I'm not ready to make nice.

  14. #64
    New kid...seven years ago! DancingMaenid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince524 View Post
    I've been coming in and out of this forum for the last few days, unsure of exactly what to say or how to say it.

    I'll be honest, I felt a little hurt that the forum was closed right after the election. Although I respected that it was Mac's choice to make, I didn't know what to make of it, or of the rebranding. I'm not sure how it's quite different here.

    I'll also add my voice to those who didn't like that certain names were called out personally. Yeah, they have a pattern. Everyone does, myself included. Some may find my particular pattern annoying or disruptive, while others fine me thoughtful and funny. Same goes with everyone else.

    I hold great respect for the people I've met in this forum, even and in some cases especially, when their ones I disagree with.

    Like Gregg, sometimes I also feel like the odd one out, since I'm not center left, but that's okay. I never wanted an echo chamber, but perhaps what the place needs is a greater variety of voices.

    I don't pretend to have the answers. I am glad the forum is back, and of course it needs to be said that AW has so much more to offer than just political discussion. So I guess we'll see what happens from here.
    I agree with a lot of this.

    Ultimately, this is Mac's forum and I respect her right to manage it. I get that this subforum isn't a "free" resource -- moderating takes time and energy.

    But it was kind of a blow that it closed immediately after the election. This sounds hyperbolic, but discovering that it was closed on Wednesday morning made an already horrible day even worse. At first I thought I'd been banned or something for no clear reason because I couldn't find where the closure decision was mentioned. I was sad that I couldn't discuss the election with the people on here, especially since my other online social outlets were panicking to an extent that wasn't helpful for me to be around. The reasoning for the forum being closed contributed to my own fear, because I perceived it (perhaps wrongly) as an act of emergency and panic. If Mac didn't feel safe keeping the forum open, then my writing probably wasn't safe anymore.

    I don't think the forum owes me reassurance or a safe place, but it was still hurtful.

    The naming of specific people did bother me a little. I respect that the individuals named might have been in on the "joke," so to speak, but that wasn't clear to me as someone who's not privy to those relationships.
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  15. #65
    Techno-Cathar Perfect Diana Hignutt's Avatar
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    I know this: If we don't talk to each other, we will never find ways to live in peace and prosperity with each other. Yes, shit got heated. And yes, oftentimes, the best way to deal with that sort of heat is to take a break and back away from each other. But, our problems and conflicts still exist. And they always will until we start to listen to each other. I'm going to work on doing a lot more of that.
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  16. #66
    Are you gonna finish that bacon? Vince524's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana Hignutt View Post
    I know this: If we don't talk to each other, we will never find ways to live in peace and prosperity with each other. Yes, shit got heated. And yes, oftentimes, the best way to deal with that sort of heat is to take a break and back away from each other. But, our problems and conflicts still exist. And they always will until we start to listen to each other. I'm going to work on doing a lot more of that.

    I think there's an incredible amount of wisdom in this. We have to learn how to talk with people we disagree with, relate to them. We all have more in common than not, in many cases. When we look at someone and see a group, whites, blacks, gays, Muslims, Christians, Trump voters, Clinton voters, and only that, we see usually the worst. We need to look for the best in each other.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana Hignutt View Post
    I know this: If we don't talk to each other, we will never find ways to live in peace and prosperity with each other. Yes, shit got heated. And yes, oftentimes, the best way to deal with that sort of heat is to take a break and back away from each other. But, our problems and conflicts still exist. And they always will until we start to listen to each other. I'm going to work on doing a lot more of that.
    I absolutely third this very wise post.

    One of the things that could end up being a positive out of this election is that the NeverTrump Republicans, and even those who voted for Trump while holding their noses, and the pro-Hillary folks, might see that they have more in common than they realized. And that is a starting point.

  18. #68
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.e.lawson View Post
    I absolutely third this very wise post.

    One of the things that could end up being a positive out of this election is that the NeverTrump Republicans, and even those who voted for Trump while holding their noses, and the pro-Hillary folks, might see that they have more in common than they realized. And that is a starting point.
    If only it were that simple.

    I have never found it difficult to find common ground with those I disagree with politically. I have a friend in Utah who can't stand Hillary Clinton, thinks she's power mad and corrupt, and would never have voted for her in a million years. But he also would never vote for Trump – he voted for John Kasich in the primaries. I would guess he probably voted for Evan McMillan, another conservative.

    We have some real disagreements over certain issues – abortion, religion, and a few other deeply emotional aspects. But he and I do have a whole bunch of shared underlying values. We simply disagree on the best means to achieve those goals. He is a thoroughly decent human being – a bit misguided of course in my view.

    Then there are the Trump supporters. I actually don't know many of them. Those I do know are mostly ex-cops, sad to say. And they have a few things in common: they are angry, contemptuous of government in all its forms, and racist (and homophobic) – some overrtly, some a bit less so. But it's always there.

    I used to have some common ground with them – I knew they would have my back if someone was trying to kill me. Other than that, not much. And as I get older, I not only doubt I'll find any common ground, I'm no longer interested in trying.
    Last edited by rugcat; 11-16-2016 at 11:44 PM.
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  19. #69
    Pie aren't squared, pie are round! Introversion's Avatar
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    I think part of the problem lies in how we (collectively) often talk about problems. We don't, actually, talk about problems -- we talk about the solutions we each believe is needed.

    I write software for a living. I was once on a small team where I was leading writing the backend services, and another guy was leading writing the user interface. We'd have some problem to solve; UI needs X from the backend. And he and I would get into these long, heated arguments about it, because he'd want to launch into telling me how I should do X. I finally got him to instead tell me what he needed, and leave the "how it's done" to me. He was telling me his solutions (some of which wouldn't work the way he thought they would), rather than telling me what problems he was trying to solve. Because arguing over why solution 1 was better or worse than solution 2 wasn't what we needed to be doing. We needed to make sure that I understand his problems, and that my solution N solved them.

    I probably agree with many Trump voters over issues like, "neither party is much interested in the welfare of non-wealthy voters". We'd probably disagree on the best solutions to that.

    (And once you get to "agree to disagree", then what?)

    But I think the entire nation is basically screaming solutions at each other now. I don't really know what to do about it, even in online forums let alone 1x1 in real life.

  20. #70
    Techno-Cathar Perfect Diana Hignutt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    If only it were that simple.

    I have never found it difficult to find common ground with those I disagree with politically. I have a friend in Utah who can't stand Hillary Clinton, thinks she's power mad and corrupt, and would never have voted for her in a million years. But he also would never vote for Trump – he voted for John Kasich in the primaries. I would guess he probably voted for Evan McMillan, another conservative.

    We have some real disagreements over certain issues – abortion, religion, and a few other deeply emotional aspects. But he and I do have a whole bunch of shared underlying values. We simply disagree on the best means to achieve those goals. He is a thoroughly decent human being – a bit misguided of course in my view.

    Then there are the Trump supporters. I actually don't know many of them. Those I do know are mostly ex-cops, sad to say. And they have a few things in common: they are angry, contemptuous of government in all its forms, and racist (and homophobic) – some overrtly, some a bit less so. But it's always there.

    I used to have some common ground with them – I knew they would have my back if someone was trying to kill me. Other than that, not much. And as I get older, I not only doubt I'll find any common ground, I'm no longer interested in trying.
    So, we stop trying to fix things? I guess that's fine if one's in a position of privilege. I can't stop trying to find common ground. I can't stop fighting for my rights nor the rights of my people. And therefore, I will listen to people and try to understand them, and not write them off as irredeemable. If they can't be redeemed, then we can't have our rights. And no one wins.
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  21. #71
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    Giving up trying to find common ground it's not the same as giving up on solving problems.

    If you're dealing with someone who thinks that trans people are sick and disgusting, and should be kept away from society at the very least, what common ground are you going to find with them? How are you going to deal with issues in the workplace concerning trans people, when you're talking to people who believe they shouldn't be allowed to have jobs where they interact with "normal" people in the first place?

    My belief is that one needs to work to eliminate these people from positions of power, to marginalize them until their influence ceases to matter. Working with them does nothing more than legitimize their beliefs and positions – as if their attitudes are just different ways of looking at a "problem." Surely we can come to some compromise?

    I don't think so.
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  22. #72
    Herder of Hamsters AW Admin's Avatar
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    I have no room left to compromise. I've met people more than halfway.

    People of good will will find ways to work together.

    People who think [Walloons] or whatever are less than they are? I can't fix that.

    I won't compromise with hate.

    I will route around those people. They're not entitled to my time or attention.

    I will find others I can work with.

    I see no point in compromising with hate; there are other people who will help.

    Most people are of good will. I'll work with them.

  23. #73
    practical experience, FTW Underdawg47's Avatar
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    I don't like the way we are forced to vote in this country. The two party system doesn't seem fair to me. I really don't appreciate being shamed by people to either vote for a Democrat or a Republican. I think one way to change this unfair way of voting is to adopt Ranked Choice Voting in as many states as possible. It allowed you to vote your conscious without actually feeling that your vote is wasted.

    http://www.fairvote.org/rcv#rcvbenefits

    I think Trump won because many people didn't feel they had much of a choice. From what I read many people left the vote for president blank or decided not to vote at all. This election brought out the worst in people and we can change this.
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  24. #74
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post

    We have some real disagreements over certain issues – abortion, religion, and a few other deeply emotional aspects. But he and I do have a whole bunch of shared underlying values. We simply disagree on the best means to achieve those goals. He is a thoroughly decent human being – a bit misguided of course in my view.
    This describes my relationship with some conservative friends I've had over the years. We share many of the same goals, but we have different ideas about the best way to get there and about the relative costs and benefits of our different approaches. I will note that most of them did not vote for Trump in this election, and one (at least) has said he's finished with the GOP for good. Clearly these aren't your average conservative types, or the election would have turned out very differently.

    It seems to me like mainstream conservatism in this country has become a movement that is focused on opposing the expansion of human rights for everyone who isn't a fetus or a white, wealthy, Christian male. Also, I think it's become increasingly anti-science and anti-intellectual in its opposition to scientific issues: from evolution to the incorporation of scientific information into public policy re climate change.

    The thing is, I'm finding it increasingly hard to find common ground with or compromise with someone (even if they aren't active haters or science deniers themselves) who thinks that treating me or someone I care about as a lesser human being is a legitimate form of political expression.
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 11-17-2016 at 01:43 AM.
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  25. #75
    People are not wearing enough hats JJ Litke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AW Admin View Post
    I have no room left to compromise. I've met people more than halfway.
    Yeah, that thing where you're supposedly going to get more conservative as you get older? For me that's happening in the form of being less willing to compromise. Though honestly I think it may be less about real change in me than it is what I have to compromise with. I don't think it's my imagination that the stakes keep going up.
    The Invisible Box, Apex Magazine issue #92
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