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Thread: Reboot

  1. #1
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Reboot

    We're going to reboot this room.

    We're going to try VERY HARD not to re-create an echo-chamber situation, here -- and we're also going to be concentrating on the concrete things we're all doing to help (even if it's simply talking to other people at work or on the subway.)

    We're going to have a VERY SHORT LEASH on the "Trump is going to burn the world down" threads for a while, and we're going to be trusting those of you still here to remember that this is a community. We're here together. We're IN THIS TOGETHER.

  2. #2
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Feel free to weigh in with ideas and advice, folks...

  3. #3
    Herder of Hamsters AW Admin's Avatar
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    People have been helping collect resources, so I'll start posting them tomorrow.

  4. #4
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    I had a question. In the past, OPs on this board usually started with a link to an article about some event or political development with a comment of some kind. Discussions moved forward (or backwards, or down) from there. Do you still expect posters to provide a link to an article of some kind, or will there be more of an emphasis on personal experiences or ideas/thoughts people have about issues and problems in a more general way?
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  5. #5
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    That's a great question.

    If we're presenting something as a fact, it should have a citation.

    What I'm not interested in seeing here is how fucked up everything is, and all is in smoking ruins, and the world is gonna end.

    Many of us are disappointed. Many of us are jubilant.

    Whatever else we may agree or disagree about, the way we've been discussing politics here hasn't been particularly accurate, helpful, or insightful.

    So what I'd like to see is a link to a story that made you think about something differently "The Ice Caps are Melting and We're ALL GOING TO DIE" at HuffPo, for example, with some actual commentary about what you THINK AND FEEL, and what YOU plan to do about it -- even if its' just "this scared the crap out of me, so now I'm sending money for the preservation of polar-bears. Here's the address where YOU can donate, too"

    We're going to be feeling our way for a while, honestly.

    I'm trusting all of you to help.
    Last edited by MacAllister; 11-14-2016 at 08:20 AM.

  6. #6
    Lost in the Fog rugcat's Avatar
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    I understand the desire to keep this from becoming a board with post after post of the next awful thing Trump has done. On the other hand, there are some serious developments that I think are appropriate to address for example, Paul Ryan intimating now that the Republicans control everything, finally they can move forward with privatizing Medicare.

    I don't think that turning this into a support board where everyone posts only positive thoughts and suggestions for making things better is going to work, or is what we want.

    Not that I think that's the intention, but I do think it would be counterproductive and not at all in the spirit of AW to have people afraid to post about certain things that concern them for fear of getting the forum shut down again.

    Perhaps if we all take a deep breath before posting and decide whether what we're posting about is important or simply venting anger and beating a dead horse, we can strike a good balance.
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  7. #7
    Evil, undead Chihuahua SuperModerator Haggis's Avatar
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    RC makes good points as does Roxx. As for me, I'd like to make sure we can continue to talk about things other than US politics. Maybe we can continue to have a separate subforum for US politics, or the aftermath thereof. Maybe other subforums for other regions. Not quite sure how to do it but I expect it will have to work its way out.

    Best of luck.
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  8. #8
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
    I understand the desire to keep this from becoming a board with post after post of the next awful thing Trump has done. On the other hand, there are some serious developments that I think are appropriate to address – for example, Paul Ryan intimating now that the Republicans control everything, finally they can move forward with privatizing Medicare.

    I don't think that turning this into a support board where everyone posts only positive thoughts and suggestions for making things better is going to work, or is what we want.

    Not that I think that's the intention, but I do think it would be counterproductive and not at all in the spirit of AW to have people afraid to post about certain things that concern them for fear of getting the forum shut down again.

    Perhaps if we all take a deep breath before posting and decide whether what we're posting about is important or simply venting anger and beating a dead horse, we can strike a good balance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haggis View Post
    RC makes good points as does Roxx. As for me, I'd like to make sure we can continue to talk about things other than US politics. Maybe we can continue to have a separate subforum for US politics, or the aftermath thereof. Maybe other subforums for other regions. Not quite sure how to do it but I expect it will have to work its way out.

    Best of luck.
    Yeah, I get that.

    Honestly? We're going to be feeling our way.

    I'd like to see a lot more critical thinking here than we've seen in the last couple of years. I'm not inclined to quash threads, frex, that bring up someone's deep reservations about Bannon's and Preibus's appointments to the Trump administration -- but I want to see a lot more actual work and critical though than a link to NYTimes article that maybe three of us will actually click, and one of us reads all the way through.

    That might make this a quieter room.

    I'm okay with that.

    As for me? We raised 10 free-range turkeys this year, kept one, and gave the rest away to people willing to show up and help butcher, pluck, and gut. Next year, I think we'll raise about the same number of turkeys to give away, but I'm going to switch to a heritage breed.

    People are going to be hungry, by my estimation -- mostly because there are ALWAYS people who are hungry. My personal mission is to help feed hungry people. That's not going to change, no matter who is in the White House.

    We've been saying for years that this is a room where you have to bring a better game if you want to play.

    Now that particular rubber is gonna have to meet the road.
    Last edited by MacAllister; 11-14-2016 at 08:55 AM.

  9. #9
    practical experience, FTW cornflake's Avatar
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    I get the 'not just omg Trump is evil' thing but... this may be me not understanding the direction threads are meant to take or be started, but if we're going to be allowed to discuss current events, and these (among other things, obviously), are current events, like people he's naming or stuff he's doing or etc., then is that to be off-limits because it's just 'omg this happened' or is there room for discussion of things if the discussions don't cross a particular type of line or...?

    I mean there's nothing I can do about his decisions, but I do certainly have thoughts and feelings about them, heh.

    Also, like, my state's gov. posted a whole thing today declaring the state a refuge and stuff, and I actually thought when I read it about posting it in the thread in CC, but wasn't sure it'd be appropriate or if it'd be too political, so I didn't. However, so something like that, I can see people saying it's nice, and people saying 'but he can't do X he says...' and then it's a whole discussion. I don't know what'd be ok there...

    I get you're trying to figure it out and may not have definitive answers to this stuff yet.

  10. #10
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Cornflake, exactly.

    I don't have definite answers to this stuff, yet. Partly because this IS a community and it's going to take all of us to help steer the ship. But I'm way interested in what you have to say about what's going on in your state, how you relate to it, feel about it, and so on.

    That's exactly the kind of thing I'd personally like to see being discussed here.

    There's a lot of news about the Trump administration declaring stuff about going after "Sanctuary Cities" and so on -- but I have a TON of research to do about what's actually been said, and in what context, before I can offer any kind of intelligent commentary regarding how those declarations intersect with State's rights issues and other complexities.

    My observation of how the media (including WaPo, NYTimes, and other big sites, not just FB political memes, not just Huffpo, DailyKos, or Angrypatriot.com) handled this whole last year and a half has me feeling like they've played us all for clickbait suckers, and I'm good and mad about that.

    So we're going to practice being smarter, here. And we're going to help each other do that.
    Last edited by MacAllister; 11-14-2016 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #11
    Comic guy Bartholomew's Avatar
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    I'm working on a project to help combat voter suppression. Would this be a good forum to recruit folk who are interested in participating?

  12. #12
    What to my wondering eyes... AW Moderator Sage's Avatar
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    What about having a specific thread dealing with all Trump transition stuff? Keep the discussion open, but limit it to the one thread, at least until inauguration, when people will have a better feel for how the room works.
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  13. #13
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholomew View Post
    I'm working on a project to help combat voter suppression. Would this be a good forum to recruit folk who are interested in participating?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sage View Post
    What about having a specific thread dealing with all Trump transition stuff? Keep the discussion open, but limit it to the one thread, at least until inauguration, when people will have a better feel for how the room works.
    That would be better than having it crop up all over everywhere in 200 different threads. Hmmm. Gotta think about it.

  14. #14
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    I will admit that I don't tend to feel comfortable tooting my own horn about things I do to help. So (for a hypothetical example) say at some point in the future, I read a story about how a crisis in local funding (because maybe my state or county has to divert more money to programs they lost federal funding for) means that they have to cut back funding for our county animal shelter, which means they won't be able to help rescue as many animals each year and euthanasia rates will go up again.

    I'd be sad and angry (and yes, I'd be fuming about Trump and the GOP takeover of congress leaving no marginalized group, even homeless animals, unscathed), and I'd likely do something like up my donations to the shelter or something, but it would feel a bit like bragging to post that positive action here.

    Or is this going to be more about using this as a place to glean donations or volunteers for charities and programs we donate to or volunteer for or think are worthy?

    What will we do if people show up who want to talk about their pursuit of "positive social change" via volunteer work for an organization like the National Organization for Marriage or another group that wants to deprive some people of civil rights?

    How do we avoid the echo chamber thing in an era when our basic definitions of human decency are so polarized along political lines that it's impossible for many of us not to feel attacked/hated/threatened when someone else expresses their most sincere and deeply held political belief about what our rights should be?
    Last edited by Roxxsmom; 11-14-2016 at 09:29 AM.
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  15. #15
    Player of the Year nighttimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacAllister View Post
    Feel free to weigh in with ideas and advice, folks...
    Quote Originally Posted by Roxxsmom View Post
    I had a question. In the past, OPs on this board usually started with a link to an article about some event or political development with a comment of some kind. Discussions moved forward (or backwards, or down) from there. Do you still expect posters to provide a link to an article of some kind, or will there be more of an emphasis on personal experiences or ideas/thoughts people have about issues and problems in a more general way?
    I've had a lot of people coming at me on social media with all sorts of ideas, plans, and mission statements on how we must coalesce and build coalitions in order to stand against the Evil Empire.

    I have my opinion, but I don't have a lot of advice. We've never been here before. At least none of us born in this country have. The best comparisons I've read is Donald Trump is our Silvio Berlusconi, only with worse hair and more baby nukes. I want to proactive, but this all feels a bit reactive to me. Some bad shit had gone down both within this board and without in this country, but it all depends on one word: perspective.

    I got a message from someone whose opinion I expect that went, "I also understand the despair the left feels over Clinton losing. We on the right were dismayed with both Obama victories."

    For someone on the Right, even if they don't know or even support what the president-elect plans to do in the next four years, they weren't crazy over what they got over the last eight years. Every election brings joy to some and misery to to others. This was a change election, but what sort of change it's going to be is all about best guesses until it actually happens. When it does and whatever it is will be welcomed in some quarters, not feared.

    Don't get it twisted. I'm not Hillary, Obama, Oprah or Dave Chapelle saying give Trump a chance to prove he's not as god-awful as advertised. I'm not into honeymoon periods or giving a sucker an even break. That's not me. That's not how I roll. I see Trump as the enemy. All I'm saying is some Americans couldn't be happier with how the election turned out and we have to acknowledge that's as legit a belief as the protests in the street saying the sky has fallen and we're all fucked.

    I had a lot of growing disenchantment with Politics & Current Events how too many threads were fact-free zones. Factually, it's probably not proven yet Donald Trump is going to blow up the world, but there are a lot of pissed-off, unhappy people pretty certain he will. Others couldn't be more thrilled from the way the election turned out. They got precisely what they wanted.

    What I'm trying to say is I'm unsure what an Activism, Current Events, And Hope sub-forum means or what it's supposed to be or not be. What I am certain is it shouldn't be the Kumbaya Room.

    Still thinking this one over...

  16. #16
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roxxsmom View Post
    I will admit that I don't tend to feel comfortable tooting my own horn about things I do to help. So (for a hypothetical example) say at some point in the future, I read a story about how a crisis in local funding (because maybe the state or county has to divert more money to programs they lost federal funding for) means that they have to cut back funding for our county animal shelter, which means they won't be able to help rescue as many animals each year and euthanasia rates will go up again.

    I'd be sad and angry (and yes, I'd be fuming about Trump and the GOP takeover of congress even hurting innocent animals), and I'd likely do something like up my donations to the shelter or something, but it would feel a bit like bragging to post that positive action here.
    You don't have to say you donated. You can totally just say, "hey, look at this local thing happening! Here's a link to what they're trying to do, and how they're trying to do it, and why it's happening, and how much money they need" and you cite your sources and you discuss the whole funding mess and you talk about your own passion for animals.

    That's all good.
    Quote Originally Posted by nighttimer View Post
    ]
    What I'm trying to say is I'm unsure what an Activism, Current Events, And Hope sub-forum means or what it's supposed to be or not be. What I am certain is it shouldn't be the Kumbaya Room.

    Still thinking this one over...
    Yeah, Me too.

    But I wanted to reopen the room because there IS a community here who look to one another during tricky times, for gut-checks or just for an acknowledgment that the world hasn't quite blown up yet and there's someone out there reading what you post.

    I'm not married to the Room name. I'm open to suggestions. But renaming the room seemed like the most effective way to signal that we're going to go forward, but it's not going to be business as usual.

    We're done with the one-liner threads to some click-bait headline, followed by Don telling us all that government is the REAL problem, and if we'd just stop regulating stuff like clean water, it'd all work out on its own because human self-preservation trumps the bottom line of local mega-corp dumping their shit in the river. Followed by Haskins telling us that Hillary lied about something else this week, Cassandra derailing into play, then ten paragraphs by Robo-vowels fanboying Hobbes, and everyone else floundering about trying to parse wtf the conversation is actually about.

    That's stupid, and we're done doing it.

    *For the record, all those people named are capable of a MUCH higher level of discourse, and if I didn't respect their opinions I wouldn't have called 'em out -- I've seen 'em do it for years. But lately? None of us are bringing our A game. And I include myself in that diagnosis.*
    Last edited by MacAllister; 11-14-2016 at 09:34 AM.

  17. #17
    Beastly Fido Roxxsmom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacAllister View Post
    You don't have to say you donated. You can totally just say, "hey, look at this local thing happening! Here's a link to what they're trying to do, and how they're trying to do it, and why it's happening, and how much money they need" and you cite your sources and you discuss the whole funding mess and you talk about your own passion for animals.

    That's all good.
    That's a good answer. Thanks.

    I agree there's a lot to think about, and it will likely take some thought and trial and error to get things right.
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  18. #18
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    My overriding goal is that we all do it together.

  19. #19
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    I'll be watching from the sidelines a bit, but I'm just happy you've decided to reopen the room, Mac. Thank you.

  20. #20
    Heckuva good sport frimble3's Avatar
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    It's nice to have a room for Current Events, at least. Perhaps a totally separate Politics room is the way to go. For the moment, nice to have a place for the non-political stories. Such as 'Earthquake in New Zealand' or 'Indian Rupee Scandal'.

  21. #21
    Shaddup and lemme think. Angie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacAllister View Post

    We're done with the one-liner threads to some click-bait headline, followed by Don telling us all that government is the REAL problem, and if we'd just stop regulating stuff like clean water, it'd all work out on its own because human self-preservation trumps the bottom line of local mega-corp dumping their shit in the river. Followed by Haskins telling us that Hillary lied about something else this week, Cassandra derailing into play, then ten paragraphs by Robo-vowels fanboying Hobbes, and everyone else floundering about trying to parse wtf the conversation is actually about.

    That's stupid, and we're done doing it.

    *For the record, all those people named are capable of a MUCH higher level of discourse, and if I didn't respect their opinions I wouldn't have called 'em out -- I've seen 'em do it for years. But lately? None of us are bringing our A game. And I include myself in that diagnosis.*
    I'm sorry - ban me if you must. I rarely come here and only a handful of people will care either way. But I just have to say that calling a bunch of members out by name as problems you no longer want to see is petty at best. Couldn't you have just said you want to keep things on topic and avoid derails in here, without pointing a finger? Or addressed these complaints to these members in private?

    I've been an AW member for years, and eventually stopped coming around as much because of things like this. I don't expect you to listen or give a crap what I say, but I just thought you might be somewhat interested in what sends some members away. Publicly calling out people like this is one of those things.


  22. #22
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    I'm honestly not sure yet, Frimble, how this will play out. Politics aren't off limits, but there's FaceBook for people who are dug in and just want to regurgitate talking points.

    We can do better, here.

  23. #23
    'Twas but a dream of thee El Jefe MacAllister's Avatar
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    Angie, honestly I called those members out by name because they're people I've known for years. I trust them to know what I'm saying. I trust 'em to PM me and say "fuck you!" if I've been unfair. Gawd knows, they all have in the past.

    I also trust 'em to know if I HAVE been fair in my assessment that we've all been phoning it in, of late.

    I believe in writing hard, and in writing true, and that sometimes demands being pretty specific instead of being diplomatic. If I didn't care about this room, you can bet I would have hedged my language more and been a whole hella lot more diplomatic.

    I'm sorry if it seemed to you like I was being spiteful or petty. My intention was to demonstrate that, even as a community of friends, we can do better than we've been doing. And AS a community, it's our duty to call one another out when necessary.

    I trust all of you guys to call ME out, if you think I'm phoning it in, or being unfair, or just having a crap day in terms of judgment calls. So I'd never in a million years ban you for asking me point blank, "hey, what the heck??"

    I'm sorry I didn't write well enough for that to be clear. Thank you for expressing your misgivings.

    And Rob, Don, Cassandra, and Haskins? If you wanna write me a "fuck you" PM? You get a freebie...
    Last edited by MacAllister; 11-14-2016 at 10:30 AM.

  24. #24
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    A couple of friends forwarded me this thread.

    I left AW a month ago, including the cabaret and the poetry forum, even though I love and respect a great many members here. I've been on to check PMs, and that's about it. I didn't flounce -- both because it isn't my style and because I have a deep respect and liking for a great many mods here and didn't want to let them down -- so it mostly passed unnoticed.

    But since my name has been dropped here, I may as well say -- I'm done. I've been done. I won't be back. Because flouncing is still not my style, I will not go into why.

    I wish you all well.

  25. #25
    Shaddup and lemme think. Angie's Avatar
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    Mac: Thank you for that. Since, as I said, I'm not really a regular anymore and wasn't named in the post, I'll drop it from here. I appreciate the response.


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