Mental Illness Representation in YA

bombergirl69

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AGain sure, but really, I think the public's view of green eyed people is a little different from the perception of folks with mental illness. And yes, this is about opinions and my opinion is I don't like books that include random, irrelevant-to-plot mental illness depictions because my money would be on the author getting it wrong. As I noted people write whatever they want to write, but for me, in my opinion, I really don't like to see tokenism WRT mental illness (anything really but that is obviously an issue of concern for me.) There is just SO MUCH CRAP out there, people writing on mental health issues who really have no fucking clue about any of it-just use myth and dr google and whatever that I really like when authors take the time to get it right! I think that's likely true for most people on topics with which they're familiar. ;)
 

LillithEve

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Hmm. Was there something I wrote that suggested I don't think "Muslim characters, gay characters and mentally ill characters are people too"? I guess I am not a fan of "writing for representation." I am a fan of good writing and a good story, whatever that entails. If a story calls for someone who has mental health issues, great, as long as it's very well researched or the author is familiar with the terrain. I'm delighted that,for example, James Welsh, terrific Native American writer, when he was writing Fool's Crow, about 1870's Blackfeet, did not decide, "Well, i've got Indians but what I really need is a white guy in a wheelchair." Terri McMillan, in Waiting to Exhale, did not decide to make one of the women schizophrenic. ;)

Anyway, i'm okay disagreeing. It's just my opinion. In the same way many lawyers get frustrated with inaccuracies in legal thrillers, I get frustrated with inaccurate (and thus distracting) stuff about psychologists or mental health issues.
I specifically wrote that you probably didn't mean it like that! But that's how they read to me. They represented the same kind of thinking that people used to use years ago, "Why are you writing about a girl with a hijab in your SF/F novel? Is there any *reason* for her to be there?!'' "Why are you writing about a gay character in your boarding school drama? Is there any *reason* for him to be there?!'' -- and yes, that line of thinking implies that mentally ill characters are not just plain old people, but are people with an addendum and that there needs to be a reason to justify their existence. That, if the plot doesn't call for their presence, they're superfluous, irritating etc.

If you don't need a 'plot reason' to include a straight, white, able-bodied person -- then why should you need a plot reason to include anyone else? Rendering one kind of identity the ''invisible norm'' and all the rest ''other'' and in need of justification seems harmful to me.

As Zoombie said -- you can write characters because you appreciate diversity without falling prey to tokenism. You can also write stories featuring characters with depression/borderline etc that have 0 plot reasons for them to be that way, while having an excellent understanding of mental illness -- particularly if the stories are character-driven.

Not all mental illness manifests in the same way, so I'm not sure this is at all comparable to the lawyer thing, tbh. I've read accounts of mental illness by mentally ill people that did not ring true to me (PROZAC NATION, for example). Accurately repping identity is very complex and I think that authors are just always going to have to accept that, for some people, they're going to get it wrong.

Again, I see what you're getting at -- tokenism sucks, it's really irritating to read, I think we're all agreed on that front -- but the way you expressed that did initially give me pause.
 
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bombergirl69

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I don't recall saying anything like "you don't need a reason to include a white able bodied person"- I hope all characters have some kind of purpose! If I were writing a story, say, about the Blackfeet in the 1860s, white people of any flavor, other than traders and soldiers, would be odd and one would definitely need a reason to toss one in.

Of course, as I think I mentioned a time or two above, people can write whatever they want. The original topic was our pet peeves and mental illness, so I guess we are all free to share those peeves, right? I've stated mine. You are free to disagree. In general, I think mental illness is portrayed poorly, both providers and clients, with some exceptions that i think are done well. Again, it's a matter of opinion and that's mine. People don't research, or use dr google or hollywood or something. They create cardboard characters with some fancy diagnosis that has nothing to do with the plot. I don't see that as any giant favor to anyone struggling with mental health issues. And that I suppose owuld be a whole separeate topic--whether there is some kind of obligation on the part of the author (I don't think of it as an obligation but I dont' like it when it's not done authentically--people do take stuff they read in novels as "truth" about things, including mental illness)

And yes, in my opinion, it is just like lawyers because while there is definitely variation and plenty of it, when someone gets it wrong--the disorder, or the experience, or the treatment, or the provider, it's incredibly distracting. Not getting symptoms right, not getting assessment and testing details right, not understanding the difference between psychologists and psychiatrists, having providers develop social relationships with their clients, describing completely inappropriate treatment, etc. If it's done well, I won't notice.

Again, examples of where, in my opinion, it was done well are both Prince of Tides (again, plenty of issues with the tx angle but definitely, Savannah's mental illness is a critical plot driver) and Beach Music (one person's mental illness results in an action that is a major driver of the plot.) It isn't having someone with a mental illness, it's giving them specific symptoms regardless of the diagnosis that result in actions that drive the plot. Sue Miller does this in Family Pictures where the MC's bro is...autistic? I can't remember the specifics but how the family relates to him, and what happens to him are crucial plot elements. John Lescroart gives his MC a daughter with some kind of anxiety disorder. Her travails sometimes distract him, sometimes impact his relationship with his wife and so on, issues which definitely influence the plot. Same with Ordinary People--the MC's symptoms are integral to the plot and are really well done.

Anyway, really, those are my opinions, and just that, opinions. I don't know why one would create a borderline character with no plot relevance (why borderline? why not conversion disorder? or avoidant personality disorder? i would guess because something about the borderline PD is plot relevant), but it doesn't matter what I think about it. No one needs my approval!! ;) Again i'm quite okay that we disagree. These are just opinions!
 

LillithEve

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I don't recall saying anything like "you don't need a reason to include a white able bodied person"- I hope all characters have some kind of purpose!

Okay -- imo, that's implicit when you say there needs to be a reason for a character with an identity that differs from the norm to appear in a YA novel.

I get the point that you are making about setting -- but if we're talking about novels set in a contemporary space, a character with mental illness is just as realistic a possibility as a character without. I hope you'll notice that there's a difference between what you've pointed out (ie character's presence being unrealistic because of setting) and a character's identity *needing* to be necessary to the *plot*. I'd be weirded out if there were a white character in that story, and I'd be weirded out if there were a sleep-walker or narcoleptic in a story about a military academy (we're not allowed in those settings).

There isn't a *reason* for most default characters having the identity they do in fiction. There's no plot reason, for example, dictating why Harry Potter is of a white background and isn't black British.

I've always maintained that differences of opinion are okay. They will always exist and I'm not really seeking to persuade you of anything. As stated earlier, I'm just articulating my thoughts re: what I perceive to be a problematic stance, for those who are silently reading and considering these issues.
 
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CJSimone

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Muslim characters, gay characters, and mentally ill characters are people, too. They deserve representation and their presence doesn't have to be *directly tied* to the plot -- there are a lot of Muslim and gay teens out there who don't want to read an ''issue'' book about themselves, for once, but rather want to read a soap opera or an epic fantasy featuring someone like them. It's the same with mentally ill people. Our characters shouldn't have to be the ''invisible norm'' (ie -- white, male, able-bodied and mentally well) unless the presence of ''the Other'' is necessitated by the plot.

Except that stories don't just pick people, do they?

Like, I mean, is there any particular reason to not write a story about, say, exploring the depths of space wherein the main character has aspergers or bipolar disorder? While having mental health issues is a big chunk of someone's personality, it doesn't dictate everything that they do for the rest of their lives, right?

You can include a character for the metatextual reason that diversity is cool and good while not just falling prey to tokenism.

I don't know that including someone who's Swedish or short or blind or blond or even blonde is that different from including someone who's snide or funny or left-handed or single or queer or married or queer and married or in a wheelchair or bi polar or diabetic or green-eyed.

They're all human traits.

I recently read a query crit where someone was told that their trans character needed to have a plot reason to be trans, and it made me cringe. I know that's getting off topic here, but I feel the same way about mental illness. I agree that if a character has a mental illness, it should inform how they approach the world and situations they face and not just be a quirk, but the book (and the character) doesn't have to revolve around it. I also agree that adding it for the sake of tokenism is pretty annoying.

Also, I really love this thread and discussion. There have been so many insights here.

+ 1 to all these posts. And I agree it's a great thread.
 

bombergirl69

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Okay -- imo, that's implicit when you say there needs to be a reason for a character with an identity that differs from the norm to appear in a YA novel.

s.

This is actually kind of interesting. Almost all of my posts seem to start with me responding to things I didn't say (that Muslims and gay characters aren't people, that one doesn't need a reason for including an able bodies white person, that one does need a reason for deviating from the norm), things which you keep saying I did. It makes me wonder with whom you are actually having this discussion.

I never said anything about needing a reason to deviate from the norm! I said I don't like writing for representation, trying to figure out not what the story calls for but how I can put someone who is irrelevant to the plot in my work. White people, able bodied or otherwise, don't work in plenty of stories.


And yes, setting, contemporary or otherwise, is relevant. Which is my point about considering what the story calls for. Stories don't fall from skies--we create the "norm" in our stories, right?-- so if someone is writing a story and they want it to be about a character with borderline PD, they can create a story about it and make it relevant and natural. They can do what it seems like Zoombie is doing and create entire worlds complete with different rules! If that story involved treating PTSD with laser therapy, I wouldn't blink. But tossing in a character with no connection to the plot, for the point of representing someone with mental illness? For me, no.

As I noted above, it's likely a different discussion about what authors are obligated to do (and I would argue not a damn thing, no one should have to write for an agenda!) but i'm likely hypocritical there as I will always appreciate when an author takes the time to get it right with mental health details and maybe creates a sympathetic character!! ;)

No idea what Rowling was thinking with Harry Potter (why he wasn't something else) but I haven't been very impressed with her approach to Native American issues (nothing to do with HP, though!) :)
 
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c.k.archer

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I just wanted to give a huge thank you to everyone for all the insightful and thoughtful responses so far. They've all been really helpful for me.
 

ManInBlack

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My biggest pet peeve about mental illness depiction is when things are just labeled as Schizophrenia (or, more commonly, the off-handed "schizo") when in reality it's bipolar disorder (don't even get me started on that) or Dissociative Identity Disorder.

When there is a large cast and none of them show any significant signs of depression or anxiety. Statistically, this is nearly impossible IRL and it just serves to further stigmatize people by making it seem as though very common afflictions are less common than they are. (Just browsing, this might be a counter to some common "writing for representation" arguments. Basically, writing the world different than it is without a reason that serves the story is far worse in the long run than letting the world exist the way it does.)
 

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So, for example, I just finished editing the second novel in my Lunar Cycle series. In it, the protag suffers from PTSD from her time space - but...it also takes place in a future where the human brain is better understood and advancements in therapy have made curing PTSD far easier than it is today. But spacer culture is really judgmental about mental illnesses, so the MC fights back against treatment - she doesn't want to seem to be weak. The plot in the book basically comes down to: "Get over your cultural hangups and take your medicine."

Is that insensitive?

Would that hurt someone who actually suffers from PTSD - and with the modern cultural hangups on mental health? (mental health = weakness being a meme I've seen far too often out

I don't think it's insensitive, I think it's important. My little sister suffers from Social Anxiety and PTSD, and when we talk about it openly people are shocked. This is still considered very much a hush-hush subject, and I think it's terrible. Similarly, I just requested to meet a psychologist this week because I think I suffer from PTSD too. My little sister has it, and it has still taken my years to recognize the signs, accept that I may be ill and seek treatment. It's not only the social aspect of it, but also just it's hard to admit something is "not right" with you. At least that's how it's been for me. :)

(Though, I'd say the message should be more along the lines of "there's nothing wrong with being sick, but there's everything wrong with refusing medical help"?)

Anyway, my biggest pet peeves related to Mental Illness in YA are:
  • When a character displays all possible signs of the illness. In my experience (please correct me if I'm wrong) not all those suffering from PTSD suffer from the same signs, or even the same type of PTSD. I'm not saying you should specify the kind of PTSD in your story if it doesn't include medical terms, but as a writer you should be aware of the differences and how they can effect the patient.
  • That the only kind of depressed character in YAs is the sad cutting suicidal type. Smiling depression exists and is just as serious, if not harder to recognize.
  • The "crazy" antagonist who's "crazy" just so you'd have a antagonist. People are who they are because of what they've been through. I'd love it if more books would have reasoning behind their mentally ill antagonist, and would stop to dismiss them as just "crazy". I'm not saying you can't have a mentally ill antagonist, but you should always have a reason for it (at least that's how I feel about antagonists, I get it if you have a mentally ill protagonist who's ill for no reason, that happens sometimes, but if you're going to present mentally-ill people in such a bad light, the least you could do is give the character a solid backstory - or have a "positive" mentally-ill character to balance them off if it's "too much work").
  • I can't think of anything else right now, but I'm sure I have more lol

So, um, yeah. Also, this is just a great subject and thread, thank you for bringing it up.
 

Emermouse

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My biggest pet peeve about mental illness depiction is when things are just labeled as Schizophrenia (or, more commonly, the off-handed "schizo") when in reality it's bipolar disorder (don't even get me started on that) or Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Based on your remark, what I'd like to see, not just in YA but really any fiction with mentally ill characters, is a mention of the overlap between conditions. I have been labeled Major Depressive Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, but also Bipolar Disorder II. There are a lot of grey areas in the field of psychology. It isn't like how in medicine where if someone is running a low-grade fever, complains of a sore throat, and has white patches on their tonsils, making it fairly clear that the patient is suffering from Tonsilitis. Often with mental illness, sometimes it comes down to "Which meds does the patient respond best to?" If they respond well to SSRIs, then maybe it was Depression.

But Bipolar Disorder I, Schizoaffective Disorder, and Schizophrenia can all present very similar symptoms. I'm told Bipolar Disorder I, you get more mood disorder than psychosis, schizophrenia is more psychosis than mood disorder, while Schizoaffective Disorder is equal amounts mood disorder and psychosis. But I admit that I am not a hundred percent sure about this. If I am wrong, feel free for someone more knowledgeable to step in.

An example of the shades of grey involved in diagnosing someone is a case I read about while reading up on the Andrea Yates case. A patient was admitted to psych ward after trying to kill herself. Since she was displaying all the symptoms of Depression, they treated her with meds meant for it. Only for her hours later, to be off the wall psychotic, so psychotic they have to send in security to restrain her. If this was the first time they were seeing the patient and they hadn't seen her the previous hours in which she was depressed, they would have assumed Schizophrenia.

So again, a ton of overlap and shades of grey in the field of psychology.
 

ManInBlack

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Oh, absolutely. Diagnoses are changing all the time because of similar symptoms, and compendium is more common than not. What I'm specifically referring to is when a character is very obviously showing signs for a different disorder/not showing any signs associated with the named one, but they're thrown into a catch-all category because the writer either didn't do research or didn't care.
 

KTC

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There definitely IS overlap. My cousin and I are put nicely into the same boat by most of our relatives. _____ and _______ both have ________. The third blank is interchangeable in my family. My cousin has schizophrenia and I am bipolar.

In real life, these issues and biases and problematic groupings and misunderstandings are irritating. My issue with seeing them in fiction lies only in them being presented believably, in a non-exaggerated non-stereotypically inaccurate way. When people get it wrong, they're like champion-wrong.
 

cmtruesd

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Should the illness be stated outright or implied? Also If you want to throw in anything about PTSD and depression specifically, that'd also be helpful.
Thanks!

I'd say you can go either way. If you choose to go "implied," I highly recommend you read the book "All the Bright Places" if you haven't already. One of the MC's struggles with bipolar depression, though it's not outright stated, and he doesn't seem to understand that's what is happening.
 

cornflake

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I don't think it's insensitive, I think it's important. My little sister suffers from Social Anxiety and PTSD, and when we talk about it openly people are shocked. This is still considered very much a hush-hush subject, and I think it's terrible. Similarly, I just requested to meet a psychologist this week because I think I suffer from PTSD too. My little sister has it, and it has still taken my years to recognize the signs, accept that I may be ill and seek treatment. It's not only the social aspect of it, but also just it's hard to admit something is "not right" with you. At least that's how it's been for me. :)

(Though, I'd say the message should be more along the lines of "there's nothing wrong with being sick, but there's everything wrong with refusing medical help"?)

Anyway, my biggest pet peeves related to Mental Illness in YA are:
  • When a character displays all possible signs of the illness. In my experience (please correct me if I'm wrong) not all those suffering from PTSD suffer from the same signs, or even the same type of PTSD. I'm not saying you should specify the kind of PTSD in your story if it doesn't include medical terms, but as a writer you should be aware of the differences and how they can effect the patient.
  • That the only kind of depressed character in YAs is the sad cutting suicidal type. Smiling depression exists and is just as serious, if not harder to recognize.
  • The "crazy" antagonist who's "crazy" just so you'd have a antagonist. People are who they are because of what they've been through. I'd love it if more books would have reasoning behind their mentally ill antagonist, and would stop to dismiss them as just "crazy". I'm not saying you can't have a mentally ill antagonist, but you should always have a reason for it (at least that's how I feel about antagonists, I get it if you have a mentally ill protagonist who's ill for no reason, that happens sometimes, but if you're going to present mentally-ill people in such a bad light, the least you could do is give the character a solid backstory - or have a "positive" mentally-ill character to balance them off if it's "too much work").
  • I can't think of anything else right now, but I'm sure I have more lol

So, um, yeah. Also, this is just a great subject and thread, thank you for bringing it up.

While you like this, I haaaaaate it. Can't stand when there's some explanation proffered for every possible disorder. He's an addict because he was abused. He's a child molester because he was molested. She has bipolar disorder because she was adopted. He's a serial killer because.... Yada. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There's not a tragic past at the heart of every disorder. Obviously some, but I think it's done way too much.

Mileage varies!
 

ManInBlack

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I agree that the very explicit cause is used way too often. In many cases it's a way to make the villain into something that was inevitable in order to dehumanize them. I'm fine with shitty life leads character to turn to drugs and things like that, because that's realistic and you're not beating anybody over the head with a contrived reason.
 

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While you like this, I haaaaaate it. Can't stand when there's some explanation proffered for every possible disorder. He's an addict because he was abused. He's a child molester because he was molested. She has bipolar disorder because she was adopted. He's a serial killer because.... Yada. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There's not a tragic past at the heart of every disorder. Obviously some, but I think it's done way too much.

Mileage varies!

Well, I understand what you mean by that, and that's totally fine that you have a different opinion, but I'd just like to clarify that I thought more along "he's an addicted because he made the wrong choices" (or, you know, some other reason, like being addicted to some med because of chronic-illness). I didn't mean a writer should give every single "evil" mentally-ill character a tragic past, just a past. I think if the character made the wrong choices, something pushed them to make those decisions, even if it is the illness itself. A person, even if they are mentally-ill, doesn't become a murderer or a serial killer out of the blue. (Um. At least let's hope so LOL)

Like, make sure you portray the character as a person and not just as a walking, talking representative of the illness.
 

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The problem with presenting characters as having mental illnesses because of things which have happened to them is that there's then an expectation that things will happen in the novel which will resolve those mental illnesses.

Unless we're writing books which are hundreds of thousands of pages long, we don't have enough room in our narratives to effectively show the root cause of those mental illnesses, and we certainly don't have room to show the characters coming to a proper understanding of that, let alone overcoming it. Not in any believable way. So there's a real risk that we'll write books which are trite and which trivialise the issues we're trying to highlight, which is not good.

It can be done, of course. We have to be very specific in the issues we write about, and very careful to not to claim that too much can be done in too short a time, etc. To be real about what's possible. I've seen a lot of writers attempt this, but very few who have successfully done it.
 

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I like to think most mental disorders (in an MC at least) are part of a character's arc. For instance, one of my characters' great change from start to finish will be learning to handle her life in a way that she can make commitments without being overcome by anxiety. It's a small thing but a necessary one for character growth, imo.
 

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I am always upset when I see mental illness in this genre because it is never done properly. I mean the thing that horror did, where people see me have an episode and think I am going to shoot up a school, that doesn't bother me. It was nice street cred. But I have seen some outrageous things in literature passed off as ok. Just a few things I would like any author who works with mental illness to keep in mind:
  • Not all mentally ill people are smart. I've met some who, for various purposes, I will just call special.
  • The opposite is somehow also a stereotype, so, not all mentally ill people are stupid.
  • Not all Schizophrenia is Paranoid Schizophrenia.
  • Schizophrenia is not DID/MPD(Dissociative Identity Disorder/Multiple Personality Disorder). This misconception probably comes from Schizo meaning split, but this refers to a split between the person and the real world.
  • DID/MPD is overdone and never done well. Most writers are either too good for it or not good enough for it, but don't so many try?
  • Not all anti-psychotics are created equally. And a lot of them are almost entirely out of use on account of typical anti-psychotics have some really nasty side effects. So if you are going have a character pop a make it better pill, do your homework, and pick the pill you think your character would get prescribed. I like to go with Seroquel.
  • And even if you do include that, don't expect it to all be ok as long as they stay on pill schedule. Some pills cannot be used for long goes, and even the really effective ones won't bring full on normality.
  • Cornflake is also very right about a cigar sometimes being a cigar. Trauma can bring out what is already deep down in there, worsen it, kick it off early, but most of the real nasty ones are genetic.
  • Schizophrenia usually waits a good long while to pop up in a person. You can usually reach adulthood before you see symptoms.
  • And to end on a grave note, don't be afraid to kill your mentally ill characters. That is just realism. Suicide, police brutality, accidents caused by zoning out or freaking out, we live atop a real tight rope.
 

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This is all so interesting. I wish I could read all of this, but that might take me a long time, when I really should be editing.
I'm a children's mental health therapist, and I've struggled with depression and anxiety myself. MI is not a major plot point in my manuscript by any means, but I have 3 main characters, and one struggles with low self-esteem that manifests as being cocky and manipulative; and another is pretty anxious. I didn't really think about the "tokenism" of it. I added them because a) it's character development and some people have MI and I don't think that should be ignored 2) I was hoping teens would be able to relate to the characters.

I didn't explicitly say any of the MCs had a MI, but I dropped subtle signs, and I think my character's symptoms would be relatively mild. I think I might make the one character's anxiety a little bit more explicit, now that I think about it.
 

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My pet peeve is the stereotypical potrayal of OCD. Sure, there are neatfreaks and superstitious people with the disease, but that's not the extent of it. For example, my obsession was the fear that I might be a zoophile.

Also, when a character has a mental illness but it doesn't affect his/her life in any way.
 
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Curlz

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My pet peeve, especially with US authors, is when the writer decides to call every quirk "a mental illness" which has to be paraded, labelled and medicated. Sometimes a nervousness is just nervousness and being shy is just being shy and being angry is just being angry. Also, a YA book is a book for children, not a manual for medical students. :Sun:
 

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Trauma can bring out what is already deep down in there, worsen it, kick it off early, but most of the real nasty ones are genetic.
[/LIST]

This is true. Both mental and physical disorders that are genetic may be jump started much earlier or exasperated by trauma and stress.
 

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I love this thread. Incredibly helpful.

(Not sure if this is already a thread somewhere, but ...) Has anyone read YA books that represent mental illness well? Some relatively popular YAs I've read/heard of: It's Kind of a Funny Story (depression), History is All You Left Me (OCD), All the Bright Places (bipolar disorder), Thirteen Reasons Why (depression), Fangirl (bipolar), Made You Up (schizophrenia), Speak (depression), The Program (depression), Will Grayson, Will Grayson (I *think* one of the Wills has depression, but I could be misrembering), The Fault in Our Stars (depression). These are just a few examples I've read/heard about, but I'm wondering what others who have read these books think about them in terms of their representation/portrayal of mental illness.

There are some in this list that seem to be known for doing the representation well (It's Kind of a Funny Story) and others that receive quite a bit of criticism (Thirteen Reasons Why). I think discussing the qualities of good and bad representation in the context of stories would be beneficial to those who want to write characters with mental illnesses.
 

owlion

Absorbing inspiration from the moon
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I think for me the main issue is when the mental illness comes to define that character - they are the 'depressive' one or the 'anxious' one, or anything else. MI does become a big part of a lot of people's lives as it worsens and stops people from functioning as they would otherwise, but the people experiencing it do have more to them that just the MI (and, like others have said, everyone will react to and deal with their MI in a distinct way - there's no 'set depression', for example).
A good book I read about bipolar disorder is A Note of Madness which deals with bipolar in a very realistic way - the character who suffers from it is very complex and 'real', not defined by their illness although the book is about their struggle with it (while studying in a music school).

Good luck with the MS!