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Thread: HOW? How does this keep happening?

  1. #1
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    HOW? How does this keep happening?

    Please allow me to add the name Terrence Crutcher of Tulsa, Oklahoma to the Black Lives Matter discussion. Video and story here (graphic content warning). What strikes me most forcefully is the still of him laying there alone. The news story in the link says the officers went to comfort the shooter. They left the victim on the ground. I can't even...
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  2. #2
    Player of the Year nighttimer's Avatar
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    How? How does this keep happening? Respectfully, I disagree with the question.

    This is not a "how" question. This is a "why" question.

    Why does Black Lives Matter protest and raise hell? Why does Colin Kaepernick take a knee? Why do so many Blacks distrust the police and see them as oppressors instead of protectors? Why will things get much worse before they get any better?


    THIS.
    IS.
    WHY.

  3. #3
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    Also in Tulsa:

    Cops Taunted Black Veteran as He Died

    In brief, a gentleman charged with misdemeanor obstruction somehow acquired a broken neck in the course of his booking, and was allowed to die on the jail floor because the jailers claimed he was faking being paralyzed. It took him five days to die; cause of death being "complications of vertebrospinal injuries due to blunt force trauma" and dehydration.

    They may have a problem out there.

  4. #4
    New kid...seven years ago! DancingMaenid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald View Post
    Also in Tulsa:

    Cops Taunted Black Veteran as He Died

    In brief, a gentleman charged with misdemeanor obstruction somehow acquired a broken neck in the course of his booking, and was allowed to die on the jail floor because the jailers claimed he was faking being paralyzed. It took him five days to die; cause of death being "complications of vertebrospinal injuries due to blunt force trauma" and dehydration.

    They may have a problem out there.
    Horrifying story.

    With regards to jail deaths, I think the biggest issue, exacerbated by lack of resources, is that there's an inherent conflict between seeing jails as a place of punishment or a place to warehouse criminals and providing humane care. There are a lot of mentally ill people in jail, and there are a lot of inmates with medical conditions that require care. But corrections staff are overworked, don't always have much compassion for their charges, and are primarily focused on controlling the inmates rather than treating them. An inmate lying on the floor becomes an inconvenience rather than a genuine concern. I also think it's too easy to pass the buck. Guards rely on medical staff to recognize and treat illnesses, and medical staff cede to guards.
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  5. #5
    Player of the Year nighttimer's Avatar
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    Death of a "Bad Dude."

    And here we go again.

    The video is disturbing and prompts many questions and that's how the police see it. The family of Terence Crutcher, who was shot dead by police Friday, says the footage should lead to criminal charges against the officer who killed an unarmed man.


    Crutcher, who was black, died next to his SUV that had stopped in the middle of a two-lane road in Tulsa, Okla. Seconds before he was shot, police dashcam and helicopter footage shows, he had walked to his car with his hands held over his head as Officer Betty Shelby walked behind him, her gun raised.


    In the recording from the Tulsa police helicopter, an officer is heard saying of Crutcher as he walks in front of Shelby, "Looks like that's a bad dude, maybe on something."


    Officers had been called to the scene by passers-by who had reported a vehicle abandoned in the road. "He took off running," a woman told a 911 operator, saying that the man said his vehicle might blow up. She added, "I think he's smoking something."


    Shelby, who is white, was one of four police officers who were standing at the rear bumper of Crutcher's car as he stood next to his vehicle around 7:45 p.m. Friday. She's also the officer who shot him once, in the upper body and who then radioed, "Shots fired." Police say another officer used his Taser on Crutcher at nearly the same time he was shot.

    Officer Shelby's attorney, Scott Wood, told the Tulsa World that Shelby believed Crutcher was reaching for something inside his car, and that he hadn't been following her commands.


    "After watching the video and seeing what actually happened," said Tiffany Crutcher, Terence's twin sister, "we're truly devastated. The entire family is devastated."


    Tiffany Crutcher then went on to tell the media gathered in Tulsa, "You all want to know who that big 'bad dude' was. That big 'bad dude' was my twin brother. That big 'bad dude' was a father. That big 'bad dude' was a son. That big 'bad dude' was enrolled at Tulsa Community College, just wanting to make us proud.


    "That big 'bad dude' loved God; that big 'bad dude' was at church singing, with all his flaws, every week. That's who he was."
    Mr. Crutcher's SUV broke down on the highway. Shit happens. The police respond, but instead of assistance they give Crutcher bullets. Shit happens and it keeps happening again and again.

    Tulsa is also where Deputy Bob Bates, a pay-for-play toy cop, pulled his gun and shot a suspect. Remember, "fuck your breath?"

    In April 2015, Walter Scott, an unarmed motorist, was shot in the back while fleeing from Ofc. Michael Slager and the whole thing was caught on video, Americans recoiled in shock and disgust. But not all. Some said, "We don't know all the facts" and "let's wait and get all the facts before we come to a judgment."

    That's actually pretty sage advice. We don't know all the facts about the shooting of Terence Crutcher. We have not received all the facts before coming to a judgment.

    The thing of it is, we may never "know all the facts" behind shootings like this. What I do know with 100 percent certainty is it is a dangerous thing to be Black, be large or small or thin or fat but mostly just a Black male and be perceived as a threat by the police because you're "a bad dude." Far, far too often this ends with lethal consequences for the Black male.

    We can only thank God we live in a country that's made so much progress on race. Just ask Terrence Crutcher about it once he gets over being dead.
    Most people don't want to change. They're comfortable and set in their ways. But in order to change, you have to be able to agitate people at times. And I think that's something that's very necessary for us to improve as a country.
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  6. #6
    down the rabbit hole of research... CWatts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald View Post

    They may have a problem out there.
    They've had a problem out there for a very long time.... I wonder if some of these cops are the descendants of the "rioters" who committed mass genocide almost a century ago.

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stor...nts_tulsa.html

  7. #7
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    I'd lay money on the "facts" being worked out as the 4 officers huddled to console the shooter. Poor thing.

    I'm so disgusted by the lack of human empathy. Leaving the man dying in the street. Offering no assistance for 2 1/2 minutes??? Nighttimer, you took issue with HOW, and I understand your position, but FFS, we've had enough of these now for every police department in this country to at the very least insist upon a "render lifesaving assistance immediately" policy, haven't we? Maybe they couldn't have saved his life, but they sure as f*** should be TRYING.
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  8. #8
    practical experience, FTW Maze Runner's Avatar
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    I am befuddled. In my life I've noticed a downturn in most prejudices. Except for towards Arabs and Muslims of course. But definitely I have personally seen and heard less racial bigotry directed towards blacks over the past couple decades. And yet, this. Why this keeps happening, I don't know. I have ascribed it to fear, to the fact that there are so many guns on the streets that police officers are frightened and act rashly. And that this mostly happens in black neighborhoods because the crime rates are typically higher. But I don't know, I just don't know if that covers it. Until recently, I'd have bet my last dollar that we as a country were moving in the right direction.

  9. #9
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Sad, so sad.

    One has to wonder if sometimes these cops accidentally pull the trigger. The guy was clearly not a threat to these cops. If they wanted to taser him for walking to his vehicle instead of whatever they wanted him to do, that was bad enough. There is no reason at all for shooting the guy. It's nuts.

    But rest assured the cop that fired will claim she saw him reach for something and the others will back her up.


    Yep, the cop is claiming the victim reached inside the car window. The window is rolled up. It is a lie. News conference now shows a closeup of the window with blood on it.
    Last edited by MaeZe; 09-20-2016 at 11:06 PM.

  10. #10
    New kid...seven years ago! DancingMaenid's Avatar
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    I get that police officers are on edge, sometimes for a good reason. But I think there's a fundamental problem of cops reacting to situations as though there's a threat even if that hasn't been established. I get that there's no easy answer, and that cops face a lot of danger. But police cannot do their jobs effectively if a call about an abandoned car and a person who might be on drugs automatically puts them on the offensive, instead of the defensive.
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  11. #11
    Your Genial Uncle Absolute Sage James D. Macdonald's Avatar
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    Meanwhile:

    Protests erupt in Charlotte after fatal police shooting

    Protesters clash with police in Charlotte

    Twelve police officers were injured in overnight disturbances in Charlotte, North Carolina, after protesters clashed with police following the fatal police shooting of a black man earlier in the day. Keith Scott, 43, was shot and killed by Charlotte-Mecklenburg officer Brentley Vinson, who is also black, after being mistaken for a wanted man. Police say Scott, a father of seven, brandished a gun as he got out of a car; his family insist he was sitting in his car reading a book and had no gun. In a video posted to Facebook Live, Scott’s daughter Lyric can be heard yelling at investigators not to plant a weapon in Scott’s car. “Because that’s what the fuck y’all do,” she said. As protests swelled, police used teargas in an attempt to disperse crowds heard yelling “Black lives matter,” and “Hands up, don’t shoot!” One person held up a sign saying “Stop killing us”; another sign said: “It was a book”.

  12. #12
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    There are problems with how the police react, and it often appears that the reactions are based on irrational fears. Irrational fears can have any of several causes, but screening and training should be eliminating people who are subject to irrational fear from being police.

  13. #13
    The Aryan Arab Ravioli's Avatar
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    Disheartening, and so anti-everything the USA boasts to the rest of the world. BLM and american racism doesn't concern me practically, but the injustice makes me so angry. Why's a black man have to fear for his life when approached by people boasting the slogan "To serve and protect"? I don't normally care about human grief when you're not showing me horrible images of Syrian children, but this is just so messed up, because the USA are a country that boasts about freedom, all men born equal, limitless opportunity and so on, and all that freedom and opportunity is in the Whites side of the laundry basket.
    Please help me leave this country for a better life!
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  14. #14
    Player of the Year nighttimer's Avatar
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    Most people don't want to change. They're comfortable and set in their ways. But in order to change, you have to be able to agitate people at times. And I think that's something that's very necessary for us to improve as a country.
    ~ Colin Kaepernick



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  15. #15
    I should be writing. Alpha Echo's Avatar
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0e28b2b523b9c

    A peaceful rally in response to the shooting turned violent on Wednesday as protesters threw rocks and bottles at police in riot gear, smashed windows and doors and looted stores in downtown Charlotte. Officers fired rubber bullets, tear gas, flash-bang grenades and used pepper spray to disperse the crowd.


    One protester was shot and gravely wounded by a civilian, and four police officers suffered non-life threatening injuries, city officials said on Twitter.

    *snip*


    Protesters smashed windows and glass doors at a nearby Hyatt hotel, whose manager told Reuters that two employees were punched. The slogan “Black Lives Matter” was spray-painted on windows.


    Demonstrators were also seen looting a convenience store after smashing its windows and a shop that sells athletic wear for fans of Charlotte’s National Basketball League team, the Hornets. Others set fire to trash cans.


    What in the world is happening? Why turn to violence? You can't protest violence with violence no matter what, IMO. It just makes you a hypocrite.
    "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible"
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  16. #16
    Player of the Year nighttimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Echo View Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0e28b2b523b9c

    What in the world is happening? Why turn to violence? You can't protest violence with violence no matter what, IMO. It just makes you a hypocrite.
    "Why turn to violence?" Violence is inevitable when peaceful methods fail to work. There always have been hidden among the peaceful flock, a few violent wolves thirsting for blood. Plus, some men really do just want to see the world burn.

    "You can't protest violence with violence, no matter what."
    Says who? That's not the American way. America was born out of protests which turned violent. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Even the most peaceful of souls inevitably run out of cheeks to turn.

    "It just makes you a hypocrite."
    Explain, please. How can one be hypocritical about something they were never sincere about?
    Most people don't want to change. They're comfortable and set in their ways. But in order to change, you have to be able to agitate people at times. And I think that's something that's very necessary for us to improve as a country.
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  17. #17
    I should be writing. Alpha Echo's Avatar
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    If someone decides that in order to say "Don't be violent" they need to be violent? That's not hypocritical? Looting stores - the store owners have nothing to do with this. Punching employees working at a hotel. Throwing rocks and other objects at police. That's a good way to protest?

    NT, I always agree with your posts. But I don't agree with this one. You can't convince me that these "protests" are a good idea.

    From Merriam-Webster

    Full Definition of protest


    • 1 : a solemn declaration of opinion and usually of dissent: as a : a sworn declaration that payment of a note or bill has been refused and that all responsible signers or debtors are liable for resulting loss or damage b : a declaration made especially before or while paying that a tax is illegal and that payment is not voluntary
    • 2 : the act of objecting or a gesture of disapproval <resigned in protest>; especially : a usually organized public demonstration of disapproval
    • 3 : a complaint, objection, or display of unwillingness usually to an idea or a course of action <went under protest>
    • 4 : an objection made to an official or a governing body of a sport

    Sounds to me like a protest is in direct response to something. These people are protesting then against the store owners and employees and other innocent people for what? There is a state of emergency in Charlotte. People are being asked to not leave their homes because it is too dangerous. Dangerous because their own neighbors - not terrorists, but their neighbors - are running around in the streets demonstrating violence.

    I have been just as outraged as you with what's happening. But this isn't the way to respond. I don't know the answer, but I know this can't be it.
    "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible"
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  18. #18
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    In one of Terry Pratchett's satirical masterpieces, he has a moment where a novice Watchman (i.e., cop) is taken for the first time to the Watch headquarters. Carved in the stonework above the entrance is a Latin-looking motto:

    FABRICATE DIEM PVNC

    The novice asks the jaded, cynical Watch supervising officer what that means. He looks at it and replies:

    "To Serve and Protect".

    See if you can't figure it out (Hint: The Latin alphabet had neither a U nor a K).


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  19. #19
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    I maybe talking about things I know nothing of, but as to the how and why of it, I'd humbly submit The Wire into evidence. It seems like a number of police officers no longer exist as agents of society and members of the community, sworn to serve and protect; now they're an occupying force that doesn't quite speak the language and exists primarily to protect certain interests and put down anything resembling disorder. If there is a solution to the problem of racially motivated extrajudicial killing and extrajudicial killings across American society as whole (it seems a great many poor, homeless and/or mentally ill people seem to wind up dead with alarming regularity), it's going to require a shake up of the whole system, from top to bottom.

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  21. #21
    Learning to read more, post less cmhbob's Avatar
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    The Crutcher shooting is local to me; he was also a student at the same school I'm attending, though not the same campus. We had never met.

    Tulsa World has some pretty good coverage on this case, including a 54-minute video compilation from the three primary cameras at the scene: Police 1 (helo), Backup Officer 1 (taser) and Backup Officer 2. TPD does not have body cams. Shelby's car did not have the front lights activated, so no dashcam. I've not heard her radio traffic from her arrival to the chopper's arrival, nor have seen a transcript.

    Shelby was not carrying a Taser. Not sure why. Had she been, this story would probably have ended much differently.

    Crutcher was shot within 15 seconds of Backup Officer 1's arrival. In the cruiser video, you can see him drawing his Taser as soon as he exits the car, and you can see the targeting laser on Crutcher's back right before hearing the shot. Nighttimer, you mentioned Eric Harris. His brother has spoken about Crutcher and has said TPD is handling this much better than TCSO handled his brother's death.

    I suspect what happened is that Shelby fired in sympathetic response to the sound of the Taser. That's not unusual or uncommon, and it's somewhat difficult to train away, I think. I also suspect at this point that she won't be charged, but will almost certainly be fired. The former is just a hunch though. No basis anywhere.

    ETA: Probable Cause Affadavit
    Last edited by cmhbob; 09-23-2016 at 01:42 AM.

  22. #22
    All about that action, boss. ElaineA's Avatar
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    I'd like to see all 4 police officers charged with failure to render aid, as well
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  23. #23
    Learning to read more, post less cmhbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineA View Post
    I'd like to see all 4 police officers charged with failure to render aid, as well
    Why? They did render aid. It took them about a minute and a half, but they did. At least two of them brought aid bags, then at least one put his away.

    They cleared the car first (2 of them walking around the car), then checked themselves out (when they backed away), then secured the scene (moving the one cruiser), the n began rendering what aid they could. EMSA was on the scene within 4 minutes, which is half the standard response time.

    And from a liability standpoint, do you really want the shooter to be rendering aid to the person they just shot?

  24. #24
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    Officer Shelby has been charged with manslaughter:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/tulsa-pol...203750472.html

    caw
    Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.

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  25. #25
    practical experience, FTW MaeZe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    Why? They did render aid. It took them about a minute and a half, but they did. At least two of them brought aid bags, then at least one put his away.

    They cleared the car first (2 of them walking around the car), then checked themselves out (when they backed away), then secured the scene (moving the one cruiser), the n began rendering what aid they could. EMSA was on the scene within 4 minutes, which is half the standard response time.

    And from a liability standpoint, do you really want the shooter to be rendering aid to the person they just shot?
    Watching the beginning of that 54 minutes you linked to, it looks pretty bad. Two officers comfort the shooter as they walk away from the victim, she sits or kneels on the ground behind one of the cars with one guy staying with her. The helicopter guy, (one of them was her husband in the copter by the way), says, "That's Betty that's down" and then you hear something like, "She's tough." All this time no one is going toward the man on the ground. Only when another officer arrives in a different car does any one approach the victim. With that much blood though, and the blood on the car, chances are that was a hit to the heart or at least a very major chest artery.

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