HOW? How does this keep happening?

nighttimer · Jul 21, 2017

mccardey said:
Yeah, no, that's a rubbish source though (not your fault). Mostly the province of right-wing shock-jocks. Guardian Australia is a better place to start - or Sydney Morning Herald

Yeah, my spider-sense was tingling with that "killer cop" b.s., but I confess to not knowing my way around the lower dregs of the Australian press. Thanks for the heads-up. :Thumbs:

But since you do have an Australian birds-eye view, mcardey, could you share with me how this tragedy is playing in the circles you move in. I can't imagine this depicts America in anything but the most negative of lights.

mccardey · Jul 21, 2017

But since you do have an Australian birds-eye view, mcardey, could you share with me how this tragedy is playing in the circles you move in. I can't imagine this depicts America in anything but the most negative of lights.

There's no surprise that people get shot in America, or that your police have a different approach to policing. But there's sadness, and there's a lot of "and this is only getting noticed because she's a white non-American woman".

It's also being seen down here beside a story that's playing out at the same time - a 14-year-old Aboriginal boy, in an Outback town known for racial strife, was killed when an irate white man drove after him in a Ute, to reclaim a stolen kids motor bike.

There had been ominous messages a week earlier. After a woman had posted about two Indigenous boys breaking into a ute, a man had commented on one of the pages:"Feel free to run the oxygen thieves off the road if you see them."
Another wrote: "Everyone talks about hunting down these sub human mutts, but no one ever does."

The man chased the kid down, got much too close, there was an accident and the boy was run over is the story accepted by the jury (which had no Aboriginal presence). But - it plays out in an environment where a bunch of red-necked vigilate types were calling for 'citizen justice' for property-theft crimes. There were at least two facebook pages with 18,000 followers (in a town of 30,000) where when they saw - or suspected - any trouble being made, planned or likely to come from the local indigenous kids, they would post the address where the kids were and say, basically, "Who's closest? Some-one go and clear them off."
Or-

"What about we get some white cops from America .... lol .... Not really funny but might work."

The same person also wrote:
"Things will never change unless there is annual cull."

These pages were only shut down recently.

The man who drove into the boy had his sentence handed down yesterday - 3 years for dangerous driving occasioning death. I'm hearing a lot of Aboriginal people asking for our PM to stand up and comment on the boy's death and the system that helped create it with as much gusto as he's commented on Justine's death. (Don't hold your breath.)

ETA: A close friend of Justine's by the way, said

“Justine would be as livid as anyone, by the way, at the fact that blonde, white lady victim narratives are such a different thing from black, male victim narratives. She’d also give the side-eye to the fact that, if she had more melanin, the news stories would be using ‘immigrant’ or ‘foreign national’ in their descriptions of her,” Page said.

Alpha Echo · Jul 24, 2017

So, I'm friends with a WOC on Facebook who posted this article. Basically, Justine's family's lawyer said she is the most innocent victim of police shooting ever.

“I’m not saying Philando wasn’t innocent, too, or that Frank Baker wasn’t innocent,” Bennett said. “But here is someone who called the police and was trying t0 stop someone from being hurt … and ends up being shot in her pajamas.”

While Bennett may very well have the best intentions at heart, the meaning behind his words is there if you read between the lines.

Damond’s shooting was unfortunate and tragic, and her family deserves justice. But let’s be clear: The biggest difference between her and other innocent victims of police shootings is that she was a white woman.

While I 100% agree with the article, I was saddened that some people commented on the link (on FB) saying they felt NO sympathy for Justine. Because she's white, and she has enough sympathy.

Again, I do agree that the lawyer was way out of line and full of bull shit. It pisses me off that what he said is truly how many people are looking at this case. I know that I am NOT a WOC, but I don't understand how some people can be so cold toward Justine. I feel the same way for people who show no sympathy for Castille or Trayvon or Tamir. Tamir was a child, for Christ's sake!

But we need to feel sympathy for all victims. If we don't, this problem with police shooting and killing unnecessarily will never be resolved.

Twick · Jul 24, 2017

To be fair to Harrity, it's possible he had no idea that shots were about to be fired. Certainly I suspect if he had, he might have suggested Noor not fire quite so close to his own body.

While we don't know much about this incident, it does sound so far as if it involves an officer who took "do it to them before they do it to you" too much to heart. It could easily have ended with his partner injured or worse.

cmhbob · Jul 25, 2017

This one happened because cops went to the wrong address at 11:30 PM on a Sunday night. Won't get much news because it's just a Hispanic male, so, you know....

Plus a pit bull charged at them, and someone pointed a gun at them through a door...at 11:30 PM on a Sunday night.

Oh, and the guy they were actually lookng for is still at large.

http://wreg.com/2017/07/24/southaven-police-shoot-and-kill-a-man-but-were-they-at-the-right-house/

http://wreg.com/2017/07/24/mbi-investigating-officer-involved-shooting-in-southaven/amp/

http://wreg.com/2017/07/25/warrant-shows-police-at-wrong-address-in-deadly-southaven-shooting/amp/

nighttimer · Jul 25, 2017

Alpha Echo said:
So, I'm friends with a WOC on Facebook who posted this article. Basically, Justine's family's lawyer said she is the most innocent victim of police shooting ever.

While I 100% agree with the article, I was saddened that some people commented on the link (on FB) saying they felt NO sympathy for Justine. Because she's white, and she has enough sympathy.

Again, I do agree that the lawyer was way out of line and full of bull shit. It pisses me off that what he said is truly how many people are looking at this case. I know that I am NOT a WOC, but I don't understand how some people can be so cold toward Justine. I feel the same way for people who show no sympathy for Castille or Trayvon or Tamir. Tamir was a child, for Christ's sake!

But we need to feel sympathy for all victims. If we don't, this problem with police shooting and killing unnecessarily will never be resolved.

It's like this, Alpha Echo. We all feel pain, but we don't all feel each other's pain. In some sectors of Black America, there's not so much disdain for Justine Damond's killing as there is a grim satisfaction of "now they know what it feel like."

What's Justine Damond's criminal record? Had she ever smarted off or appeared threatening or gave off a stank attitude to the cops? Was she a radical? A malcontent? A troublemaker? Did she make any sudden gestures or advanced in a threatening manner or held an object in her hand in a threatening manner?

Does any of that really matter? Not to me, but I know it does for others who saw Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Sean Bell, Terrence Crutcher, Sandra Bland, Walter Scott, Trayvon Martin, and Michael Brown had their dead Black bodies picked over for any dirt under their fingernails or unsavory details. Anything which makes them look less like a victim and more like somebody who had it coming and if not from the cops, from somebody else eventually.

That hasn't happened to Justine's victim status and it's doubtful it will.

Many black people resent that she is receiving such heartfelt reactions because we never get them. Media outlets were too busy investigating Sandra Bland’s criminal past to post Facebook posts recognizing the tragedy of her death. Police chiefs don’t get fired when black people are harmed, and mayors rarely—if ever—jump ahead of police investigations to say that a black person’s death at the hands of one of their cops should not have happened. And we’re never considered the “innocent victim.”

Damond is receiving compassion, and rightfully so. But what about us? Why can’t society hurt for us as it does for Damond? The answer is simple: America has told black Americans, “Fuck you since 1619 Jamestown” because our black skin does not register in white America’s psyche as worthy of mourning.

That hurts. A lot.

Some of us express that hurt with indifference. Others harden to the world around us and economize our feelings. God may tell us to love indiscriminately, but our human condition sometimes tells us not to give a damn about white people who, historically, have not opened their hearts to us. It’s a perfectly reasonable reaction. Black Americans are a heartbroken people, and some of us no longer have the capacity to express grief beyond our race. That’s not black people’s fault. That’s what unchecked white supremacy can do to its victims.

There will be those who will say, “We can’t be as heartless as our oppressors,” or “Fighting for justice shouldn’t be based on race.” I disagree. Before black people can extend compassion to people outside of our race, I find it imperative that we heal spiritually first. We owe no one our empathy. No matter how much we suffer, we are expected to dig deeper into our humanity to feel for those who cannot feel for us until they are hurt.

So while there are some who want to criticize black folks for responding coldly to Damond’s death, I’d challenge them to indict the white supremacist society that created the conditions for such reactions. When I hear people say, “Fuck you, Justine Damond,” I hear hurt and pain. If there is anything we can pull out of this cold indifference, it is that white America must realize that its coldness toward us in our most delicate moments can be directed right back at them. When people say, “Fuck Justine Damond,” I am certain they aren’t condemning her personally. I take it as them saying, “Fuck what Justine Damond’s death represents.”

Damond, in all of her white innocence, represents humanity. Our blackness, somehow, does not.

I would never say "Fuck you, Justine Damond" and anyone who would is not someone I would want to hang with. However, I know there's such a thing as compassion fatigue and we're all susceptible to catching a dose. We can't hate as we've been hated, but for me I understand why some would say if everything stayed the same, but if we flipped the script and made Justine Damond a Black woman from another country, would all this still play out the same way?

Celia Cyanide · Jul 26, 2017

It is so difficult for me to comment on this. I am from Minneapolis, and I am within a few degrees of separation from both the officer and Ms. Damond.

I will be back later to say more. It has been interesting reading all of your comments. I know I can always rely on this community for good discussion.

Alpha Echo · Jul 26, 2017

nighttimer said:
It's like this, Alpha Echo. We all feel pain, but we don't all feel each other's pain. In some sectors of Black America, there's not so much disdain for Justine Damond's killing as there is a grim satisfaction of "now they know what it feel like."

What's Justine Damond's criminal record? Had she ever smarted off or appeared threatening or gave off a stank attitude to the cops? Was she a radical? A malcontent? A troublemaker? Did she make any sudden gestures or advanced in a threatening manner or held an object in her hand in a threatening manner?

Does any of that really matter? Not to me, but I know it does for others who saw Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Sean Bell, Terrence Crutcher, Sandra Bland, Walter Scott, Trayvon Martin, and Michael Brown had their dead Black bodies picked over for any dirt under their fingernails or unsavory details. Anything which makes them look less like a victim and more like somebody who had it coming and if not from the cops, from somebody else eventually.

That hasn't happened to Justine's victim status and it's doubtful it will.

I would never say "Fuck you, Justine Damond" and anyone who would is not someone I would want to hang with. However, I know there's such a thing as compassion fatigue and we're all susceptible to catching a dose. We can't hate as we've been hated, but for me I understand why some would say if everything stayed the same, but if we flipped the script and made Justine Damond a Black woman from another country, would all this still play out the same way?

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I was hoping you would. I'm going to read the article you posted and think on this. It's hard for me to comprehend as both a white woman and a pretty emotional, empath. Though I suppose if I looked at from a different point of view, say, would I feel sorry if Trump were in pain? Probably not. Not for him. But I would feel badly for those who actual love him (if there are any those).

I have to give this some deeper thought. Thank you again for the insight.

Alpha Echo · Jul 26, 2017

Okay. From NT's article:

What is also hurtful is to see white society extend the kind of heartfelt regret to Damond’s family that it has never extended to us.

I can totally understand that. Honestly, my heart aches to read that. Aches from shame for white society (which I am a part of) and hurt for what this man is saying in his article. Hurt for him and others who feel that way. It's not fair.

Sometimes I feel so hopeless for our society, and I can only imagine how black society must feel all the time.

Her lawyer is right: She is “the most innocent victim.”

Not because of the facts of the case. But because she is a white woman whose white femininity will resonate with jurors and the public in ways that it never will in the case of Charleena Lyles. That hurts. And it hurts so bad that the pain manifests itself in ways that can be seen as cruel. But I do not indict black people who say “Fuck Justine Damond.” I indict white supremacy. No matter how cruel it sounds, I will never indict black people for expressing their hurt in a white supremacist society. Black people have little agency in this world, so I will not interrogate their feelings, one of the few things that can’t be taken from them, without expressing compassion for why they feel as they do.

Wow. This really hit me.

I don't speak to my mother anymore, but one of the things she said to me as a child really stuck. She always reminded us that you can't tell someone how to feel or how not to feel. I remember those words when my daughter is upset over something I think is silly or childish, or when my husband's past dictates his feelings about things today. We feel how we feel. Feelings aren't facts. They don't have to be upheld by anything rational, even. But no matter what, feelings are true to the person holding them.

That's not to say I think these feelings about Justine Damond are irrational. Only that they are real. The hurt and pain is real. And I get that. It's hard to hear someone say "Fuck you, Justine Damond." It does sound cruel and heartless. But I get it. I can only equate it in my mind to...if someone killed my daughter or husband and then ended up with cancer and died. I would feel no sympathy for that person. None. I don't think I'd feel joy, but I certainly would not be saddened.

Lyv · Jul 28, 2017

Well, this kind of rhetoric doesn't help. Nor does the cheering:

Trump says that he's okay with police being rougher on arrested suspects, such as hitting their head on police car. Crowd of police cheers.

I can't bring myself to watch the video, but Washington Post has it, too.

Suspects. Be rougher with suspects. The president is encouraging gratuitous and illegal violence against suspects. I fear it's only going to get worse.

Edit: Here's the video with the cheering and *45 using the offensive term "paddy wagon."

mccardey · Jul 28, 2017

Lyv said:
Well, this kind of rhetoric doesn't help. Nor does the cheering:

I can't bring myself to watch the video, but Washington Post has it, too.

Suspects. Be rougher with suspects. The president is encouraging gratuitous and illegal violence against suspects. I fear it's only going to get worse.

Edit: Here's the video with the cheering and *45 using the offensive term "paddy wagon."

The most horrifying part - okay, the second most horrifying part - is the cheering. Although there are a couple of police-faces behind him who don't look overly impressed. But they'll go the way of Priebus, I expect...

Tazlima · Jul 28, 2017

Alpha Echo said:
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I was hoping you would. I'm going to read the article you posted and think on this. It's hard for me to comprehend as both a white woman and a pretty emotional, empath. Though I suppose if I looked at from a different point of view, say, would I feel sorry if Trump were in pain? Probably not. Not for him. But I would feel badly for those who actual love him (if there are any those).

I have to give this some deeper thought. Thank you again for the insight.

Found this video today and thought it warranted sharing. I don't know that it adds much that we haven't already examined within this thread, apart from pointing out the silence on the "blue lives matter" front in the Justine Damon killing, but there's always room in my book for an additional clean explanation of a messy subject.

regdog · Jul 29, 2017

mccardey said:
The most horrifying part - okay, the second most horrifying part - is the cheering. Although there are a couple of police-faces behind him who don't look overly impressed. But they'll go the way of Priebus, I expect...

Suffolk County NY Police, did not take kindly to that offer and responded as much.

Link

ETA: Gainsville PD response.

Link

Celia Cyanide · Jul 29, 2017

I understand selective outrage, to a point. I was very moved by the Dark Knight Rises massacre, because I could empathize with all those people who were Batman fans, and were excited to see the new movie, and several died. The ones who survived had something they had waited years to see turn into a terrifying experience. When I went to see it, I felt like my own experience was tainted, because I could not stop thinking of them. That doesn't mean that any time something like this happens, I don't care. It just means that this particular tragedy effected me more deeply because of the circumstances surrounding it.

People might react differently to the death of someone who looks like them, or could be their mom or sister. But what they need to realize is that it is simply not true that when people act the "correct" way around police, then they will never have anything to worry about. And they also need to remember that if they look at Ms Damond, and think, "that could have been my mom or my sister!" that black people see young men like Philando Castile and think that he could be their brother, and that's why they're angry. Mr. Castile reminded me of a lot of young black men I know in Minnesota.

Instead, what is happening is that people who usually defend police officers are not scrutinizing this officer for what he actually did, but for his ethnicity and his religion. Instead of looking at how police are trained, they are looking at him being Somali and Muslim. And it irritates me, because I see it a lot on facebook from people who live in the suburbs. I live in the city, and I see Somali people every day, and I love them. If Blue Lives Matter wants to defend the police for what they do, why not this man?

My sister in law has a friend who knew Ms Damond, and the police officer involved used to work for the company I work for now. It's a very sad situation all around.

nighttimer · Jul 31, 2017

Here's some more very sad situations all around:

INDIANAPOLIS:

On the day that he would be killed answering a call for help, Southport's one full-time, paid police officer asked to come into work late.

Why? the chief asked.

Lt. Aaron Allan wanted to walk his 5-year-old son to his first day of kindergarten.

Later that day, Thursday, Allan was fatally shot. He went to help a motorist in a flipped car, police say, when the motorist shot him repeatedly. The reason is unclear. Jason Brown, 28, was arrested on a preliminary murder charge.

Allan, 38, was the first Southport police officer to be killed in the line of duty. Southport Police Chief Thomas Vaughn wiped tears away Friday remembering Allan, a softhearted public servant who was fulfilling his childhood dream of becoming a police officer. He leaves behind a wife and two children.

"We were there for a traffic accident," Vaughn said. "We weren't there for a shooting or a robbery or anything violent."

Allan joined the Southport Police Department in 2011 as part of the all-volunteer staff of reserve officers. At the time, he worked as an officer in Franklin Township Schools. In 2015, he won the Southport Police Department's inaugural Officer of the Year Award. And when Vaughn had the opportunity to hire his first full-time, paid police officer in January, he picked Allan.

MARION, ARKANSAS:

The Arkansas State Police released the name of a teenager shot by police in front of a Marion, Ark., homeless shelter Tuesday. He was identified as 16-year-old Aries Clark, who died in a hospital shortly after being shot by Marion police officers.

The facility director confirmed that Aries had previously received services from the facility, but said he wasn’t a current resident, although outlets report that Aries was considered a runaway.

Officials have not confirmed whether or not he was armed, but his cousin Chris Clark told reporters that “he held a BB gun in the air, and they just took him down on sight.” The police will not say why they were called to the shelter or what led them to open fire on a 16-year-old.

ST.LOUIS, MISSOURI:

The trial of a former St. Louis police officer charged with what prosecutors have described as the calculated killing of a 24-year-old man six years ago will begin Monday.

Prosecutors allege that Jason Stockley, 36, was recorded on an internal camera during a high-speed pursuit saying he intended to kill Anthony Lamar Smith, before shooting him five times on Dec. 20, 2011.

Initial police reports said officers approached Smith, who was apparently involved in a drug deal behind a restaurant north of downtown St. Louis, when he fled, according to court documents obtained by NBC affiliate KSDK.

At one point, the station reported, Stockley could be heard in the video saying he was "going to kill this [expletive] — don't you know it."

When Smith's car slowed, prosecutors said later, Stockley instructed his partner, who was driving their SUV, to ram Smith's car.

"Stockley then approached Smith's car on the driver's side and shot five times into the car, striking the victim Anthony Smith with each shot," former St. Louis Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce said last year.

Stockley, who had been with the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department for four years, told internal affairs investigators that he believed Smith was reaching for a handgun, according to police reports obtained by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

But Joyce said the only gun found in Smith's car bore Stockley's DNA.

Homicide detectives later determined that the shooting was justifiable, although federal and internal affairs investigations continued.

The whole damn system is broken. It doesn't work for the cops. It doesn't work for the public. It only works for those who learn how to game it. Everybody else is shit out of luck.

Roxxsmom · Jul 31, 2017

mccardey said:
The most horrifying part - okay, the second most horrifying part - is the cheering. Although there are a couple of police-faces behind him who don't look overly impressed. But they'll go the way of Priebus, I expect...

That's what gets to me too. I try to tell myself that most cops aren't racist jerks, that it's a small number of rogue cops, or bad departments, that are responsible for the tragedies. I want to believe that most take their responsibility to protect and serve all, to treat all suspects as innocent until proven guilty, seriously.

Then come the video of police cheering a man who wants to remove any oversight or consequences for police who are brutal or who abuse their power, a video that is encouraging police brutality, and I'm reminded that most of them voted for this disgusting, incoherent, hateful maggot of a human being and evidently agree with him.

All the disclaimers or condemnation of this speech from police agencies and leadership suddenly seem disingenuous in light of the cheering Trump's speech received.

nighttimer · Sep 15, 2017

Reasons To Riot

nighttimer said:
ST.LOUIS, MISSOURI:

The trial of a former St. Louis police officer charged with what prosecutors have described as the calculated killing of a 24-year-old man six years ago will begin Monday.

Prosecutors allege that Jason Stockley, 36, was recorded on an internal camera during a high-speed pursuit saying he intended to kill Anthony Lamar Smith, before shooting him five times on Dec. 20, 2011.

Initial police reports said officers approached Smith, who was apparently involved in a drug deal behind a restaurant north of downtown St. Louis, when he fled, according to court documents obtained by NBC affiliate KSDK.

At one point, the station reported, Stockley could be heard in the video saying he was "going to kill this [expletive] — don't you know it."

When Smith's car slowed, prosecutors said later, Stockley instructed his partner, who was driving their SUV, to ram Smith's car.

"Stockley then approached Smith's car on the driver's side and shot five times into the car, striking the victim Anthony Smith with each shot," former St. Louis Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce said last year.

Stockley, who had been with the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department for four years, told internal affairs investigators that he believed Smith was reaching for a handgun, according to police reports obtained by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

But Joyce said the only gun found in Smith's car bore Stockley's DNA.

Homicide detectives later determined that the shooting was justifiable, although federal and internal affairs investigations continued.

And Stockley walks.

Again and again and again, it keeps happening. Another police officer has walked away without repercussions after gunning down a black man. On Friday morning, a St. Louis judge found now-former Police Officer Jason Stockley not guilty of first-degree murder in the 2011 shooting death of Anthony Lamar Smith, a black motorist.

The ruling, handed down by St. Louis Circuit Judge Timothy Wilson, ultimately read: “This court, in conscience, cannot say that the state has proven every element of murder beyond a reasonable doubt, or that the state has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.”

Stockley, who was then on the police force, shot Smith, a 24-year-old father, after a police chase in December 2011.

Stockley, as to be expected, claimed that he had acted in self-defense, saying he believed that Smith was reaching for a weapon in the car. He pleaded not guilty to the charges and waived his right to a jury trial, instead preferring to stand before a judge.

Police, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports, have been preparing for the fallout, with barricades going up around the Thomas F. Eagleton U.S. Courthouse Thursday, and the St. Louis and St. Louis County police are preparing to have officers on 12-hour shifts Friday.

On Dec. 20, 2011, Stockley attempted to stop Smith after a suspected drug transaction. When Smith did not stop, a high-speed chase began. The then-officer shot at Smith’s car during the chase, apparently screaming, “I’m going to kill this motherfucker, don’t you know it!”

Ultimately, during the chase, the police vehicle crashed. Stockley got out armed with an AK-47, which he had against the Police Department’s orders, and walked up to Smith’s car firing five times at point-blank range.

No witness could testify that they saw Smith with a weapon, and yet mysteriously, a .38 revolver that did not have Smith’s DNA showed up.

If St. Louis starts burning and people start dying, now you'll know the reason why.

ElaineA · Sep 15, 2017

I'm so sorry. So very sick and sorry. I don't understand. At all.

(And when I say I don't understand, I *do* understand, I'm just vastly bewildered by the iniquity.)

Luciferical · Sep 15, 2017

The sad truth is that I agree with the judge. First Degree Murder. Essentially, premeditated. I don't see it.

Second Degree I see.

There's a feeling I have, I cannot prove it, but I wind up believing the prosecutor's office deliberately went for a higher charge to all but force an acquittal.

Lauram6123 · Sep 15, 2017

Luciferical said:
The sad truth is that I agree with the judge. First Degree Murder. Essentially, premeditated. I don't see it.

To me, "I'm going to kill this motherfucker, don't you know it" is premeditation. Plain and simple.

Taken from the NOLO legal encyclopedia:

Time alone doesn't determine whether a defendant premeditated and deliberated. All premeditation and deliberation require is the time it takes to form the intent, ponder the crime, and then act. Defendants can premeditate and deliberate in a matter of minutes, as long as the thought process occurs before the act.

Luciferical · Sep 15, 2017

Lauram6123 said:
To me, "I'm going to kill this motherfucker, don't you know it" is premeditation. Plain and simple.

Taken from the NOLO legal encyclopedia:

Time alone doesn't determine whether a defendant premeditated and deliberated. All premeditation and deliberation require is the time it takes to form the intent, ponder the crime, and then act. Defendants can premeditate and deliberate in a matter of minutes, as long as the thought process occurs before the act.

Beyond any reasonable doubt?

I have what I think is reasonable doubt. He said that in the midst of a high-speed pursuit.

There's a fair argument for what you say, but, again, beyond any reasonable doubt?

blacbird · Sep 15, 2017

Luciferical said:
The sad truth is that I agree with the judge. First Degree Murder. Essentially, premeditated. I don't see it.

Second Degree I see.

Apparently, second degree (or any lesser charge) was not an option. This was either/or, and the cop's attorney wisely chose a bench trial, rather than a jury trial. In a bench trial, the judge is sole arbiter, and is much more likely to understand, and rule on, technicalities of legal language, that on emotional persuasion. In a jury trial, this often the other way around. I don't know what Missouri law statutes mandate in cases like this, but obviously there was no consideration of a spectrum of possible levels of conviction.

I think the sonofabitch is guilty has hell, and deserves to be put away for life in the toughest prison Missouri has. I also suspect that the police union is now going to demand he be reinstated with full back pay and benefits (if those haven't already been paid). Let's see.

caw

rugcat · Sep 15, 2017

This article contains a summary of the prosecution and defence cases.

https://m.riverfronttimes.com/newsb...urder-says-st-louis-ethical-society-of-police

The judge in the case wrote a 30 page opinion laying out his reasons for finding Shockley not guilty.

"This court, as the trier of fact, is simply not firmly convinced of defendant's guilt. Agonizingly, this court has pored over the evidence again and again … This court, in conscience, cannot say that the state has proven every element of murder beyond a reasonable doubt or that the defendant did not act in self-defense."

Because the state did not prove Stockley did not act in self-defense, Wilson wrote that he could not address lesser charges of homicide or manslaughter.

To me, the statement Shockley made during the chase is not conclusive. High-speed chases produce anger and hyperbole. The real question is whether or not Shockley planted a gun or if the victim really was reaching for a gun that was there. It's clear to me from the testimony that that cannot be conclusively demonstrated either way.

And again, it's not enough to believe Shockley is lying. Criminal cases, especially cases of first-degree murder must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the judge is absolutely correct – in this case, even if you believe Shockley is probably guilty, there is reasonable doubt.

CWatts · Sep 15, 2017

Lauram6123 said:
To me, "I'm going to kill this motherfucker, don't you know it" is premeditation. Plain and simple.

While his actions are undoubtably murder, what I want to know is if he could be heard on police radio threatening murder. If so, how the hell did no one order him off the pursuit? How did he have the unauthorized AK-47? How the hell did he think it was okay to shoot at the vehicle during the chase? A high speed pursuit is bad enough but a shootout in a public street?

Stockley is an outlaw cop. He did not become one overnight. Instead like Darren Wilson and other uniformed killers before him, he most likely had a pattern of abuses he got away with, repeatedly, as the system and his superiors did nothing.

Luciferical · Sep 15, 2017

rugcat said:
This article contains a summary of the prosecution and defence cases.

https://m.riverfronttimes.com/newsb...urder-says-st-louis-ethical-society-of-police

The judge in the case wrote a 30 page opinion laying out his reasons for finding Shockley not guilty.

To me, the statement Shockley made during the chase is not conclusive. High-speed chases produce anger and hyperbole. The real question is whether or not Shockley planted a gun or if the victim really was reaching for a gun that was there. It's clear to me from the testimony that that cannot be conclusively demonstrated either way.

And again, it's not enough to believe Shockley is lying. Criminal cases, especially cases of first-degree murder must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the judge is absolutely correct – in this case, even if you believe Shockley is probably guilty, there is reasonable doubt.

Yeah, this. I so much don't want to believe that. But... I do.

CWatts said:
While his actions are undoubtably murder, what I want to know is if he could be heard on police radio threatening murder. If so, how the hell did no one order him off the pursuit? How did he have the unauthorized AK-47? How the hell did he think it was okay to shoot at the vehicle during the chase? A high speed pursuit is bad enough but a shootout in a public street?

Stockley is an outlaw cop. He did not become one overnight. Instead like Darren Wilson and other uniformed killers before him, he most likely had a pattern of abuses he got away with, repeatedly, as the system and his superiors did nothing.

Whatever legal status this case has, I agree with this about the officer as an officer.

I believe that Stockley likely is guilty of murder, of perjury, and of planting evidence. But the law doesn't get to operate on "likely".

HOW? How does this keep happening?

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