Shouldn't have = Should have

shortstorymachinist · Aug 30, 2016

I recently stumbled across this while reading:

"I wondered in horror if we shouldn't have let the Summoning fail."

I've seen this kind of phrasing before, and I hear it used in film by high society types (Won't you have a cup of tea?) but this instance in particular made me stop for a double-take.

The MC did NOT, in fact, let the Summoning fail, so the quote above is saying more simply, "I wondered if we SHOULD have let the Summoning fail."

It abruptly jolted me out of the scene, and I had to take a few minutes to mentally backtrack and reorganize the plot. Now I'm curious, is there a name for this kind of syntax?

blacbird · Aug 30, 2016

Yep: Wrong.

caw

Roxxsmom · Aug 30, 2016

shortstorymachinist said:
I recently stumbled across this while reading:

"I wondered in horror if we shouldn't have let the Summoning fail."

I've seen this kind of phrasing before, and I hear it used in film by high society types (Won't you have a cup of tea?) but this instance in particular made me stop for a double-take.

The MC did NOT, in fact, let the Summoning fail, so the quote above is saying more simply, "I wondered if we SHOULD have let the Summoning fail."

It abruptly jolted me out of the scene, and I had to take a few minutes to mentally backtrack and reorganize the plot. Now I'm curious, is there a name for this kind of syntax?

While it may be logically wrong to put it this way, it's common idiomatic speech. When people say this, they're generally wondering if it might have been better to let something fail. No idea why this figure of speech has evolved this way, but it's how people tend to talk. With character-driven narratives (like first or close limited third), or dialog, it's fine to use turns of phrase and idiomatic speech that the pov character would use. This author's editor probably felt that this was an example of such.

shortstorymachinist · Aug 30, 2016

blacbird said:
Yep: Wrong.

caw

Ha, I guess. I meant more along the lines of, "What's it called when someone proposes something by way of asking if it shouldn't be done."

Roxxsmom said:
While it may be logically wrong to put it this way, it's common idiomatic speech. When people say this, they're generally wondering if it might have been better to let something fail. No idea why this figure of speech has evolved this way, but it's how people tend to talk. With character-driven narratives (like first or close limited third), or dialog, it's fine to use turns of phrase and idiomatic speech that the pov character would use. This author's editor probably felt that this was an example of such.

So no syntactical name, just a development in language?

Roxxsmom · Aug 30, 2016

shortstorymachinist said:
Ha, I guess. I meant more along the lines of, "What's it called when someone proposes something by way of asking if it shouldn't be done."

So no syntactical name, just a development in language?

I don't know. Is it maybe a form of double negative?

Though, as I understand it, double negatives were once perfectly acceptable in English (and they still are in many languages), so maybe some got "fossilized" in idiomatic uses? They're also still generally used in some dialects, like Yorkshire, though I somehow doubt this is the origin of the expression in question.

Curlz · Aug 31, 2016

shortstorymachinist said:
"I wondered in horror if we shouldn't have let the Summoning fail."

I've seen this kind of phrasing before, and I hear it used in film by high society types (Won't you have a cup of tea?) but this instance in particular made me stop for a double-take.
The MC did NOT, in fact, let the Summoning fail, so the quote above is saying more simply, "I wondered if we SHOULD have let the Summoning fail."

No, that's not what the quote is saying. You claim that "MC did NOT let the Summoning fail." The MC is asking "I wondered..if we should not have let the Summoning fail" = I wondered if the outcome would be better with a failed Summoning. He is doubting the result, the Summoning did not fail but that result does not seem to be satisfying. "should" here is used to express expectation/doubt, when you are wondering about something but you are not completely sure. Maybe he's slightly disappointed, or irritated, or sarcastic.

Without context it's not possible to say if the expression is used wrong.

shortstorymachinist said:
Ha, I guess. I meant more along the lines of, "What's it called when someone proposes something by way of asking if it shouldn't be done."

It's called "polite" and "old-fashioned"

It is considered rude to be direct, so when elderly and very polite Mrs Rabbit goes into the Carrot Shop she may say "You wouldn't have some carrots..." instead of "Do you have any carrots?" . Basically, it's polite to express doubt.

Roxxsmom said:
I don't know. Is it maybe a form of double negative?

in the above example there is only one negative "should NOT".

JimmyB27 · Aug 31, 2016

blacbird said:
Yep: Wrong.

caw

I ~~disagree~~ may not agree with you. It's just as feasible to wonder if the course of action you took was the correct one as it is to wonder if the course of action you didn't take was the correct one.

ArtsyAmy · Aug 31, 2016

Curlz said:
It's called "polite" and "old-fashioned" It is considered rude to be direct, so when elderly and very polite Mrs Rabbit goes into the Carrot Shop she may say "You wouldn't have some carrots..." instead of "Do you have any carrots?" . Basically, it's polite to express doubt.

Reminds me of an interview I saw with a very polite British actor. He responded to something with, "I may not agree with you" instead of "I disagree with you."

ETA: So funny, JimmyB. I wasn't thinking of your post when I posted.

Twick · Aug 31, 2016

It's pretty standard idiom. For example, "Isn't that Sam over there?" or "Shouldn't we be looking for a solution rather than fighting?" It implies that the speaker thinks that it is Sam over there, and that we should be looking for a solution, but by phrasing it as a negative gives the listener the option of disagreeing.

Oddly, "Isn't that Sam over there?" means the speaker is more convinced it's Sam than if s/he said "Is that Sam over there?"

Curlz · Aug 31, 2016

Twick said:
Oddly, "Isn't that Sam over there?" means the speaker is more convinced it's Sam than if s/he said "Is that Sam over there?"

Exactly. Because "Isn't that Sam over there?" is another way of saying "That's Sam over there, isn't it" [which is called "tag question" for the grammatically inclined

], which makes the intention of the speaker perfectly clear (he's confident in their find). Again, that is a way of turning a declarative statement (rude) into a question (polite).

King Neptune · Aug 31, 2016

It is a form of the subjunctive mood, but I don't remember what this particular type is called, but it is conditional or hypothethical.

Myrealana · Aug 31, 2016

"Right" or "Wrong", I hear and use it all the time and understood perfectly what it meant without having to deconstruct the sentence. It sounds natural and gets the point across, and isn't that the goal of dialogue?

shortstorymachinist · Aug 31, 2016

Roxxsmom said:
I don't know. Is it maybe a form of double negative?

Though, as I understand it, double negatives were once perfectly acceptable in English (and they still are in many languages), so maybe some got "fossilized" in idiomatic uses? They're also still generally used in some dialects, like Yorkshire, though I somehow doubt this is the origin of the expression in question.

Oooh. I didn't know that, that's fascinating. I'm going to be on the lookout from now on for dialectic use of double negatives.

Curlz said:
No, that's not what the quote is saying. You claim that "MC did NOT let the Summoning fail." The MC is asking "I wondered..if we should not have let the Summoning fail" = I wondered if the outcome would be better with a failed Summoning. He is doubting the result, the Summoning did not fail but that result does not seem to be satisfying. "should" here is used to express expectation/doubt, when you are wondering about something but you are not completely sure. Maybe he's slightly disappointed, or irritated, or sarcastic.

Without context it's not possible to say if the expression is used wrong.

It's called "polite" and "old-fashioned" It is considered rude to be direct, so when elderly and very polite Mrs Rabbit goes into the Carrot Shop she may say "You wouldn't have some carrots..." instead of "Do you have any carrots?" . Basically, it's polite to express doubt.

That a great point about directness, I hadn't thought about that. Although I'll have to disagree with your assertion that my reinterpretation is incorrect. You said,

"I wondered..if we should not have let the Summoning fail' = I wondered if the outcome would be better with a failed Summoning. He is doubting the result [...]

IMO, "I wonder if the outcome would be better with a failed Summoning" = "I wonder if we should have let the Summoning fail." The MC was indeed doubting the result, horrified actually.

In any case, the expression wasn't used wrong. I was just asking if there is a formal name for that kind of speech pattern.

Twick said:
It's pretty standard idiom. For example, "Isn't that Sam over there?" or "Shouldn't we be looking for a solution rather than fighting?" It implies that the speaker thinks that it is Sam over there, and that we should be looking for a solution, but by phrasing it as a negative gives the listener the option of disagreeing.

Oddly, "Isn't that Sam over there?" means the speaker is more convinced it's Sam than if s/he said "Is that Sam over there?"

Usually it doesn't phase me in the slightest, but this instance kicked me out of the story as I thought, "Wait...they did complete the Summoning, didn't they?" So it got me thinking about this speech pattern, and how it can sometimes be unclear, and I wondered if it had a formal name.

shortstorymachinist · Aug 31, 2016

King Neptune said:
It is a form of the subjunctive mood, but I don't remember what this particular type is called, but it is conditional or hypothethical.

Thanks! Question answered, more or less!

Myrealana said:
"Right" or "Wrong", I hear and use it all the time and understood perfectly what it meant without having to deconstruct the sentence. It sounds natural and gets the point across, and isn't that the goal of dialogue?

Yeah, I have no problem with it whatsoever. This instance just stuck out to me and made me curious about what this speech pattern was called, if it even had a name.

morngnstar · Aug 31, 2016

They're mostly interchangeable. "Should we start dinner?" = "Shouldn't we start dinner?" = "Should we or should we not start dinner?" Any yes / no question is interchangeable with its negation, because the answer will give the same information either way. Likewise wondering. Wondering involves considering both possibilities, so "wondering whether" = "wondering whether not" = "wondering whether or not".

I think in your case it would actually have been wrong had the summoning failed. "Should" derives from archaic "should rather" which meant "would prefer instead". So it should only be used for things that didn't happen. Looking to the future, you can use it freely, since the things haven't happened - yet. Looking to the past, "We should have X," tends to imply that you didn't X.

ETA: I guess, "We shouldn't have X," implies you did X. But tapping back into the old interpretation of "should", "shouldn't have" can have two interpretations: "would not prefer instead" or "would prefer not instead". "I wonder whether we would not prefer instead that the summoning had failed" = "I wonder whether we would prefer instead that the summoning had failed," makes sense. "I wonder whether we would prefer instead that the summoning had not failed," doesn't make sense, because the summoning did not fail.

MissyMay · Sep 17, 2016

It sounds like the same situation as "could care less" when you really mean "couldn't care less." It's not correct, but it's socially acceptable... unfortunately.

Shouldn't have = Should have

shortstorymachinist

The score is still Q to 12!

blacbird

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

shortstorymachinist

The score is still Q to 12!

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido

Curlz

cutsie-pie

JimmyB27

Hoopy frood

ArtsyAmy

Twick

Curlz

cutsie-pie

King Neptune

Myrealana

I aim to misbehave

shortstorymachinist

The score is still Q to 12!

shortstorymachinist

The score is still Q to 12!

morngnstar

MissyMay